912 réponses à ce sujet

[Vormaerin]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

@Maria Caliban Did you notice that I also said "space"?

Side note: My computer isn't letting me see anything on page 14, so I won't be able to respond to anything there.

Yeah, look at all those Aliens in "Firefly"/"Serenity"....    "Lost in Space" didn't have aliens, either.

And there are a lot of books... the Honor Harrington series has no aliens, but is space opera.   I don't recall any in the Lt. Leary series by David Drake either.

[Sylvianus]

It is useless to argue the pro will not change, the cons will not change their view ultimately drowned in the clutter of the posts.

Suffice it to say for or against. I've defended gay romance (although I am silent from now that bull**** in  DA2) but I will never to be for a system that breaks the immersion and makes the game completely ridiculous.

This system has helped make dA2 ridiculous, even those in favor of gay romances were embarrassed in the experience of the game

M3 is the latest episode of the series, it need not be marred by such a fantasy.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 23 avril 2011 - 09:45 .

[jlb524]

jeweledleah wrote...

Or its a great way for TIM to convince Shepard that Cerberus has in fact change all the while arranging for all these pesky alien elements die out in a process, or just  be used.  Cerberus hasn't shied away from using aliens before.  working for Cerberus doesn't mean you ARE Cerberus any more then signing up to take out archangel means you are full fledged blue sun's merc.

Shepard "agreed" to work with Cerberus before recruiting a single teammate.

I'm not saying Cerberus would shy away from using the occasional non-human resource, but to have half the team for an important mission be non-human (and to give them access to Cerberus technology, the SR2) is a bit of a stretch.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

@Vormaein Lost in Space did have aliens. What are you talking about?

[Ryzaki]

jeweledleah wrote...
Or its a great way for TIM to convince Shepard that Cerberus has in fact change all the while arranging for all these pesky alien elements die out in a process, or just  be used.  Cerberus hasn't shied away from using aliens before.  working for Cerberus doesn't mean you ARE Cerberus any more then signing up to take out archangel means you are full fledged blue sun's merc.

@ Rizaki..  my incoherency strikes again, what I meant to say is that they cannot write identical new romance with VS for both Male and female Shepard becasue the dynamic between them and virmire survivor is already different.  specificaly - in case of oposite sex shepard, atraction was there from the start and gotten over years ago. while in case of same sex shepard atraction didn't exist in the beginning.  I suppose you could bring it down to the differences between rivaly/frienship path romances, but its still differences that would have to be adressed.  No need with a fresh character.

plus there's this pesky matter of them not being in half the games.

Actually attraction could've developed after Virmire for both s/s and opposite sex Shepard. If a BDH saved my life I'd get a little crush myself. And really the overraction at Horizon can even lend credice to it. "YOU BETRAYED ME!" "...what?" And yes there would be differences. THat's nowhere near as much work as you seem to think it is. Essentially you'd end up with 4 paths. Friend (since BW likes to force canon friends down our throats), lovers (Paragon/renegade), or new lovers male/female Shepard. Since you can't paragon/renegade them without being lovers you already have a limited bit of variation. 

I mean this in *addition* to a fresh character. So there's some choice. You have to jump through hops to get the extra choice but it's there. 

Plus there's gonna be another Gensis comic (so you *can* pick to have them) so while they might not be alive in "default" you might still be able to get them in the game though the comic. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 23 avril 2011 - 09:46 .

[Chewin]

When someone says the word "science fiction space game" does everyone start thinking about movies that doesn't include aliens?

How ironic

[PlumPaul93]

rynluna wrote...

PlumPaul82393 wrote...

your getting more and more ridiculous by the second. Someone disagrees with what you want and instead of discussing it like a mature person you continue to change the subject and get off topic.

No, dear.  The sad thing is she has made a good point about Tali and Garrus suddenly being open to romance in ME2 but then people say it would be inconsistent if this happened with Ash or Kaidan in ME3.  A lot of us have brought this point up and yet it gets ignored or there is an incredibly derpy response of "what's done is done."

The immature thing is double standards are up at play and yet the pro s/s people are all the immature ones.

aah I see so this is a "other people got what they want so we want things our way" issue right? Making characters bi or gay when they've never been that way just to appease people is one of the worst things bioware could do. If you want gay/bi characters in the game that's not something I disagree with, but wanting characters to be something they were never supposed to be is wrong even if other people got what they wanted (tali, garrus, etc) it doesn't mean it should happen.

[TheChris92]

Nevermind this post.

Modifié par TheChris92, 23 avril 2011 - 09:49 .

[adneate]

Chewin3 wrote...
When someone says the word "science fiction space game" does everyone start thinking about movies that doesn't include aliens?

How ironic

Got another one Battlestar Galactica had no aliens! Space does not equal Aliens.

Overly reductive and simplistic argument overruled!

[kumquats]

PlumPaul82393 wrote...

aah I see so this is a "other people got what they want so we want things our way" issue right? Making characters bi or gay when they've never been that way just to appease people is one of the worst things bioware could do. If you want gay/bi characters in the game that's not something I disagree with, but wanting characters to be something they were never supposed to be is wrong even if other people got what they wanted (tali, garrus, etc) it doesn't mean it should happen.

Could you post the link where it is written that Kaidan is straight pleace?

[Vormaerin]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

@Vormaein Lost in Space did have aliens. What are you talking about?

The movie didn't.  I don't recall the TV show.

Regardless, you point is still invalid.  There's a lot of space based science fiction that either doesn't have aliens at all or only has aliens as a variation on the monsters.    You asserted that aliens were a given in the genre.   They aren't.

Chewin3 wrote...

When someone says the word "science fiction space game" does everyone start thinking about movies that doesn't include aliens?

How ironic

If someone asserts that aliens have to be present to be space sci fi as justification for a dubious bit of storytelling, then yes, they do.

Modifié par Vormaerin, 23 avril 2011 - 09:52 .

[Chewin]

adneate wrote...
Got another one Battlestar Galactica had no aliens! Space does not equal Aliens.

Overly reductive and simplistic argument overruled!

Battlestar Galactica had aliens, if I remember correctly

Modifié par Chewin3, 23 avril 2011 - 09:55 .

[Ramirez Wolfen]

@adneate When people think "science fiction SPACE" aliens are usually in it.

[AngelicMachinery]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

@adneate When people think "science fiction SPACE" aliens are usually in it.

Still doesn't explain they're position on a ship full of space racists.

[Targy90]

jlb524 wrote...

Targy90 wrote...

They could be applied to these things, true.
But no one cares.

Yes, that's my point...no one cares in those cases but do care in the case of s/s romance and make a big stink about it...and this makes those people look like hypocrites, which is never a good thing.   Then I start to wonder why the s/s thing really bothers these people and not all the other possible immersion breaking boo boo's BW's writers make.

It's Mass Effect. You expect to have aliens on your team. The s/s relationships bother people when their companions suddenly decide to come out of the closet. I do not like DA2's approach to this, so I'd prefer that characters sticked to their sexual preference and not change it depending on what gender the PC is. Also, I've no problems if any new bi/gay characters were introduced, though by the things I've heard over the last years on forums etc. I very much doubt it's going to happen in this trilogy.

[Vormaerin]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

@adneate When people think "science fiction SPACE" aliens are usually in it.

When people think  "fantasy adventure" they think elves have to be in it.

Except they don't.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

@vormaerin They occur a lot, because I can name a LOT of things that are "science fiction space" and have aliens.

[Fault Girl]

I understand where the pro s/s views are coming from, I think it is silly that there isn't a real option.

The Tali/Garrus side I dont see the problem with but then if they made them romancable, why didn't they add a gay options in ME2 with other possible PC's?

It's wierd how DA always have at least two options but then ME there isn't apart from an asari...

Hell I would love to romance Jack/Miranda as Femshep, but you can't.

Is there a specific reason as to why ME doesn't have a S/S option compared to DA. (DA2 is another matter, which I didn't mind at all tbh didn't affect my immersion at all)

Modifié par ZombieGeisha, 23 avril 2011 - 09:55 .

[Olwydd]

I'm just going to step in one last time. Straight players seem to forget that they are able to have their cake and eat it too, whereas many gay players weren't even invited to the party.

Straight male Shepards have Ashley, Liara, Tali, Miranda, and Jack.
Straight female Shepards have Kaidan, Garrus, Thane, and Jacob.
Gay female Shepards have one option; Liara.
Gay male Shepards have.... drum roll... nada, nothing, zip-all.

Is it so wrong to want to be included, maybe even to have some little degree of choice? So while having some of these characters be bi for ME3 may disrupt someone's cherished personal 'fanon', it has the potential to make many more players happy. It may not be ideal, but it is the simplest, most likely and cost-effective solution, and can, despite what some claim, be written believably and eloquently into the existing story.

Modifié par Olwydd, 23 avril 2011 - 09:56 .

[Vormaerin]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

@vormaerin They occur a lot, because I can name a LOT of things that are "science fiction space" and have aliens.

Yes, but that is completely different than your original post.  There you argued that racist human supremacists have to have aliens on their ship because aliens are necessary for space based science fiction.

But they aren't.  While a lot of space based sci fi has aliens, a lot doesn't also.

[jlb524]

Targy90 wrote...

It's Mass Effect. You expect to have aliens on your team.

Not on a Cerberus team.

Targy90 wrote...
The s/s relationships bother people when their companions suddenly decide to come out of the closet. I do not like DA2's approach to this, so I'd prefer that characters sticked to their sexual preference and not change it depending on what gender the PC is.

The DA2 LIs were all bisexual.  No one changed for Hawke.

I still don't see why having romantic choices/variety is such a bad thing if it is optional.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

@vormaerin Not really that different because I was trying to say either way, it was going to have aliens.

[adneate]

PlumPaul82393 wrote...
If you want gay/bi characters in the game that's not something I disagree with, but wanting characters to be something they were never supposed to be is wrong even if other people got what they wanted (tali, garrus, etc) it doesn't mean it should happen.

Can you prove though that they were not that way beyond a shadow of a doubt? The majority of the "Character X is totally NOT gay" argument relies on two major aspects. One is a total lack of information one way or the other, so therefore it is simply assumed that the way they are acting is the way they always have and always will act. Perhaps that's not always been the case or perhaps it is, without a difinitive statement from the writers people are both free to and bound to speculate. The other is largely a possessiveness over the character and the associated romance sub-plot, people are actually angry at the idea of their Ashley being attracted to women now it's one more thing to worry about, their Ashley could be taken by a man or a woman. Twice the amount of people to be jealous and hostile toward!

The idea of it being an inherently quality and writing based concern is a bit of red herring, Mass Effect's story and characters have much greater concerns after ME2 than whether or not a same gendered Shepard can sleep with them. From the overall fail of the Collector plot and general stupidity of the Cerberus railroading, this is such a non-issue.

[Clonedzero]

rynluna wrote...

Dazaster Dellus wrote...

It seems to me less that the pro gay side has become somewhat unreasonable. It seems they don't really want a gay or bi LI in ME3. They want specific gay or bi LI's in ME3(Ashley/Kaidan, Garrus, Tali to be specific) and they want them to become gay/bi out of the blue.

We're only bringing up that point because people keep saying it's a huge change to a character if an existing one is open to s/s romance.  I doubt any of the pro s/s people will turn down brand new LI's but we are on a forum and we are debating why we think it's not a huge change to someone's character. 

but it is...
it'd be about as weird if ashley was suddenly black in ME3 lol