912 réponses à ce sujet

[Russalka]

Arguing over the nature of sexuality is off-topic. If anything else hasn't doomed this thread to be closed, that subject will.

[Seboist]

If anything, the same sex romance lines for Kaidan and Ashley should show how inept Bioware is at it. It's the EXACT same dialogue that the opposite sex romance has.

At least femshep had the "but..... we're both women" line to Liara.

[Maugrim]

double post

Modifié par makenzieshepard, 23 avril 2011 - 11:16 .

[Maugrim]

Russalka wrote...

Arguing over the nature of sexuality is off-topic. If anything else hasn't doomed this thread to be closed, that subject will.

Unfortunately it keeps being brought up that having all romances being bi isn't "realistic".  Which isn't even the argument half the time.   It's snowballs from there.

Modifié par makenzieshepard, 23 avril 2011 - 11:22 .

[Inquisitor Recon]

Seboist wrote...
At least femshep had the "but..... we're both women" line to Liara.

Because they likely had both Shep VAs record everything Shepard ever says, rather than sorting through gender specific talk then.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

@AngelicMachinery What's up with the insult? Like I said, the pro side does a LOT of insults.....

I'd say it's a correct assumption, like the fact that most people aren't N@zis.

[Ryzaki]

ReconTeam wrote...

Seboist wrote...
At least femshep had the "but..... we're both women" line to Liara.

Because they likely had both Shep VAs record everything Shepard ever says, rather than sorting through gender specific talk then.

And this makes the resources excuse even weaker since they have Meer record most of the romance dialogue regardless. So they're basically throwing away stuff they already made. 

(And Boulton did it too. There's some hilarious lines about him being "festoooned in ruffles." and "tell me he has killer blue eyes and a nice smile and I'll marry him on the spot!" that are restricted to femHawke in game). 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 23 avril 2011 - 11:18 .

[Seboist]

ReconTeam wrote...

Seboist wrote...
At least femshep had the "but..... we're both women" line to Liara.

Because they likely had both Shep VAs record everything Shepard ever says, rather than sorting through gender specific talk then.

It's a damn shame too. The game could use more gender specific dialogue. The Harkin crude flirting and the Batarian recruiter's dismissal of femshep were good stuff.

[AngelicMachinery]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

@AngelicMachinery What's up with the insult? Like I said, the pro side does a LOT of insults.....

I'd say it's a correct assumption, like the fact that most people aren't N@zis.

That wasn't an insult,    your being touchy.  I'm genuinely curious,  it seems like you've never even encountered a homosexual I'm truly flabergasted how you managed to do that. 

[Destroy Raiden_]

I'd rather them not go everyone is bi I suppose sense no one wanting m/m relationships will go out and make their own games in whatever genre they want and put the s/s relations in there and see if there's a market then all games will have default of hetero and the player would go into the options menu and put want bi choices y/n.

I think ME3 doesn't need an all bi cast if a new ME3 character is made and happens to be bi fine and as for future ME AUs they might make one or two bi option fine the whole cast turning bi no.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

@AngelicMachinery

I didn't say that I was offended, but telling someone something is "beyond" their scope isn't exactly good.......

I actually know a few homosexuals.

[Inquisitor Recon]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
I'd say it's a correct assumption, like the fact that most people aren't N@zis.

The only people I've ever seen advocate this "shifting sexuality" line of thought are students taking pointless sociology classes and  the "GLTB" crowd.

Maybe it applies to the "open-minded and modern" metrosexual hipsters.

[Vormaerin]

ReconTeam wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
I'd say it's a correct assumption, like the fact that most people aren't N@zis.

The only people I've ever seen advocate this "shifting sexuality" line of thought are students taking pointless sociology classes and  the "GLTB" crowd.

Maybe it applies to the "open-minded and modern" metrosexual hipsters.

Then you obviously haven't spent very much time around psychologists, because its psych research rather than sociology that powers that particular concept.

Of course, its also psych research from start of the 20th century that created our modern concept of sexual orientation, too. 

[jeweledleah]

holy cow, am I that incoherent that everything I say is misinterpreted to hell and back, or do you just try to twist my words?

I'm going to try one last time and then call it a day.

1. Anders doesn't show indications of being attracted to men in Awakenings. locker room banter with Nate =/=sexual attraction proof, males tend to banter in very offensive ways with each other, especially if they know that it will get a rise out of their target. He is however attracted to women, as shown by flirting and "I'd like to settle down with nice girl some day". ergo - he prefers women. he doesn't become bisexual between events of awakenings and DA2, DA2 expands him as already bisexual character with very old prior history. ergo - he is now shown to be bisexual with preference for women. the rest of his personality is rewritten to a degree that renders him barely recognizable as a character you met in awakenings. excuse? Justice. except he cannot seem to make up his mind on whether they are truly merged or they are to separate entities inhibiting the same body. he also gets very romantically pushy and obsessive. sloppy writing all around.

2. both Kaidan and Ashley show immediate attraction to opposite sex Shepard. both have history of attraction to opposite sex people other then Shepard. neither shows attraction to same sex Shepard in first or second game. ergo - they at a minimum prefer opposite sex and there is no prior romantic attraction to same sex Shepard before events of ME3. In order for them to be written into a same sex relationship in ME3 - this has to be addressed by creating a romantic path with a different dynamic. in order for it to be fair for both gender shepards - they have to be made available to opposite sex shepards that chose NOT to romance them (and as such turned them down in ME1, causing them to get over Shepard before events of ME2) you cannot use the same dynamic for these 2 paths. whether they were bisexual form the start or changed their mind sometime between events of ME1 and ME3 is something that might be addressed and it will change the dynamic of the relationships even further. lastly - either one of them could potentially not exist in a game, forcing people who might be interested in a new romantic path, but happened to save a different character to either replay, or resort to cut down choices of intro comic instead of their much more personalized run.

comic choices will be cut down. they are narrowed down even in PS3 version where they only had to deal with choices of one game. intro comic to ME3 will have to deal with choices for both games, they cannot make it too long or it will lose player's interest so they need to narrow down the choices. the most expedient solution is something similar to background choices you can make in DA2 - just pick out of several preset templates.

3. creating new characters removes the need to deal with above variables. it allows inclusion of both new and old players while relegated limited development resources to actual storyline and the variable that concern it, outside of romances.

4. real life sexuality is a lot more defined the fictional character sexuality. you cannot decide to expand real people like you can expand fictional character, because unlike fictional characters - real people generally have minds and preferences of their own. fluid sexuality across the species, doesn't mean each individual will at some point go through an entire rainbow of preferences or even want to.

[Ryzaki]

jeweledleah wrote...

holy cow, am I that incoherent that everything I say is misinterpreted to hell and back, or do you just try to twist my words?

I'm going to try one last time and then call it a day.

1. Anders doesn't show indications of being attracted to men in Awakenings. locker room banter with Nate =/=sexual attraction proof, males tend to banter in very offensive ways with each other, especially if they know that it will get a rise out of their target. He is however attracted to women, as shown by flirting and "I'd like to settle down with nice girl some day". ergo - he prefers women. he doesn't become bisexual between events of awakenings and DA2, DA2 expands him as already bisexual character with very old prior history. ergo - he is now shown to be bisexual with preference for women. the rest of his personality is rewritten to a degree that renders him barely recognizable as a character you met in awakenings. excuse? Justice. except he cannot seem to make up his mind on whether they are truly merged or they are to separate entities inhibiting the same body. he also gets very romantically pushy and obsessive. sloppy writing all around.

If I were you I'd leave the Anders arguement alone. It isn't working. Him prefering women doesn't preclude him from being bisexual. 

It never has. It never will. 

The rest of his personality is up to debate but liking women doesn't stop someone from being bisexual. Prefering women? Doesn't stop someone from being bisexual. 

Liking women is a requirement for BEING bisexual. 

Please leave that arguement alone. It's not working. 

Here: http://en.wikipedia....iki/Bisexuality 

One doesn't have to like men and women *equally* to be bisexual. One doesn't have to talk about their experiences with men and women to be bisexual. That is not how bisexuality (or any orientation) works. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 23 avril 2011 - 11:40 .

[Seboist]

Destroy Raiden wrote...

I'd rather them not go everyone is bi I suppose sense no one wanting m/m relationships will go out and make their own games in whatever genre they want and put the s/s relations in there and see if there's a market then all games will have default of hetero and the player would go into the options menu and put want bi choices y/n.

I think ME3 doesn't need an all bi cast if a new ME3 character is made and happens to be bi fine and as for future ME AUs they might make one or two bi option fine the whole cast turning bi no.

I'd be mighty upset if they go the "DA2 Anders" route and retconned everyone into being BI and lots of others probably would too.

[Seboist]

Ryzaki wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...

holy cow, am I that incoherent that everything I say is misinterpreted to hell and back, or do you just try to twist my words?

I'm going to try one last time and then call it a day.

1. Anders doesn't show indications of being attracted to men in Awakenings. locker room banter with Nate =/=sexual attraction proof, males tend to banter in very offensive ways with each other, especially if they know that it will get a rise out of their target. He is however attracted to women, as shown by flirting and "I'd like to settle down with nice girl some day". ergo - he prefers women. he doesn't become bisexual between events of awakenings and DA2, DA2 expands him as already bisexual character with very old prior history. ergo - he is now shown to be bisexual with preference for women. the rest of his personality is rewritten to a degree that renders him barely recognizable as a character you met in awakenings. excuse? Justice. except he cannot seem to make up his mind on whether they are truly merged or they are to separate entities inhibiting the same body. he also gets very romantically pushy and obsessive. sloppy writing all around.

If I were you I'd leave the Anders arguement alone. It isn't working. Him prefering women doesn't preclude him from being bisexual. 

It never has. It never will. 

The rest of his personality is up to debate but liking women doesn't stop someone from being bisexual. Prefering women? Doesn't stop someone from being bisexual. 

Liking women is a requirement for BEING bisexual. 

Please leave that arguement alone. It's not working. 

Anders expresses disgust at the thought of finding the male Grey Warden sexually attractive. He was never "BI" in DA:A.

[Vormaerin]

jeweledleah wrote...

holy cow, am I that incoherent that everything I say is misinterpreted to hell and back, or do you just try to twist my words?

No, you just post self evident, non controversial statements like that wall of text as if it was in some way a refutation of the point of the other person.   Except no one is arguing any of that.   Your position refutes some of the strawmen raised by the straights only crowd, but not anything argued by any of the pro s/s group.

So, naturally, since you sound like you are objecting to the posts you respond to, people understand your comments in the light of a supposed objection.   Except, you don't actually have one.

[Ryzaki]

2. both Kaidan and Ashley show immediate attraction to opposite sex Shepard. both have history of attraction to opposite sex people other then Shepard. neither shows attraction to same sex Shepard in first or second game. ergo - they at a minimum prefer opposite sex and there is no prior romantic attraction to same sex Shepard before events of ME3. In order for them to be written into a same sex relationship in ME3 - this has to be addressed by creating a romantic path with a different dynamic. in order for it to be fair for both gender shepards - they have to be made available to opposite sex shepards that chose NOT to romance them (and as such turned them down in ME1, causing them to get over Shepard before events of ME2) you cannot use the same dynamic for these 2 paths. whether they were bisexual form the start or changed their mind sometime between events of ME1 and ME3 is something that might be addressed and it will change the dynamic of the relationships even further. lastly - either one of them could potentially not exist in a game, forcing people who might be interested in a new romantic path, but happened to save a different character to either replay, or resort to cut down choices of intro comic instead of their much more personalized run.

Why? It can't just ask : Did you save Kaidan/Ashley? Did you romance Kaidan/Liara or Ashley/Liara? 

You just said its okay to use the same dynamic for the new LIs...but it can't be used for Kaidan/Ashley's romances?   Shepard turning them down simply means the romance won't start because Shepard turned them down so they got over it. 

There is no alternate "Kaidan got dumped." path in that scenario. Just a Shepard never romanced Kaidan period scenario. 

Let me see if I'm getting this right. I said the dynamic would need to be different for old vs new romance (obviously). But you're saying the new romances *can't* use the same dynamic? Why? 

comic choices will be cut down. they are narrowed down even in PS3 version where they only had to deal with choices of one game. intro comic to ME3 will have to deal with choices for both games, they cannot make it too long or it will lose player's interest so they need to narrow down the choices. the most expedient solution is something similar to background choices you can make in DA2 - just pick out of several preset templates.

3. creating new characters removes the need to deal with above variables. it allows inclusion of both new and old players while relegated limited development resources to actual storyline and the variable that concern it, outside of romances.

4. real life sexuality is a lot more defined the fictional character sexuality. you cannot decide to expand real people like you can expand fictional character, because unlike fictional characters - real people generally have minds and preferences of their own. fluid sexuality across the species, doesn't mean each individual will at some point go through an entire rainbow of preferences or even want to.

Again I don't see how any of that matters with 2 extra dialogue paths. 

3. Is true but again romances aren't as much content as you seem to think it is. It's about 15 minutes of dialogue. It's nothing really.

I flat out agree with 4 and that debate is a whole nother can of worms. 
 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 23 avril 2011 - 11:53 .

[Vormaerin]

Seboist wrote...

Anders expresses disgust at the thought of finding the male Grey Warden sexually attractive. He was never "BI" in DA:A.

Where? 

[Ryzaki]

Seboist wrote...
Anders expresses disgust at the thought of finding the male Grey Warden sexually attractive. He was never "BI" in DA:A.

Give me a youtube vid. Or heck even a conscript of this supposed conversation. 

Because frankly I've never heard or seen that in game. 

[Dazaster Dellus]

After reading the back in forth a few pages back it seems to me people don't know what an alien actually is.

Fact: An Alien is anything that originates, exists or occurs outside of Earth's atmosphere. So most of the shows and books people brought up about them not having aliens....actually they do. If you want to be technical. But that is somewhat off topic.

[Ryzaki]

Dazaster Dellus wrote...

After reading the back in forth a few pages back it seems to me people don't know what an alien actually is.

Fact: An Alien is anything that originates, exists or occurs outside of Earth's atmosphere. So most of the shows and books people brought up about them not having aliens....actually they do. If you want to be technical. But that is somewhat off topic.

If you want to be technical about it an alien can simply be someone from another country. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 23 avril 2011 - 11:48 .

[Saeran]

Ryzaki wrote...

Dazaster Dellus wrote...

After reading the back in forth a few pages back it seems to me people don't know what an alien actually is.

Fact: An Alien is anything that originates, exists or occurs outside of Earth's atmosphere. So most of the shows and books people brought up about them not having aliens....actually they do. If you want to be technical. But that is somewhat off topic.

If you want to be technical about it an alien can simply be someone from another country. 

Sting clearly originates from out of the Earth's atmosphere actually.

[Dazaster Dellus]

Ryzaki wrote...

Dazaster Dellus wrote...

After reading the back in forth a few pages back it seems to me people don't know what an alien actually is.

Fact: An Alien is anything that originates, exists or occurs outside of Earth's atmosphere. So most of the shows and books people brought up about them not having aliens....actually they do. If you want to be technical. But that is somewhat off topic.

If you want to be technical about it an alien can simply be someone from another country. 

Yes that is true, but the Alien we are all thinking of only means one thing. Alien = Extraterrestrial and that word only has one definition. The one I provided above. There is no way to confuse that.