912 réponses à ce sujet

[Dazaster Dellus]

Saeran wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Dazaster Dellus wrote...

After reading the back in forth a few pages back it seems to me people don't know what an alien actually is.

Fact: An Alien is anything that originates, exists or occurs outside of Earth's atmosphere. So most of the shows and books people brought up about them not having aliens....actually they do. If you want to be technical. But that is somewhat off topic.

If you want to be technical about it an alien can simply be someone from another country. 

Sting clearly originates from out of the Earth's atmosphere actually.

[Seboist]

Ryzaki wrote...

Seboist wrote...
Anders expresses disgust at the thought of finding the male Grey Warden sexually attractive. He was never "BI" in DA:A.

Give me a youtube vid. Or heck even a conscript of this supposed conversation. 

Because frankly I've never heard or seen that in game. 

It happens during or after the Brood Mother's assault on the Vigil Keep/The City. Anders says something to the effect of "I love you but not in THAT way".

[Ryzaki]

Seboist wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Seboist wrote...
Anders expresses disgust at the thought of finding the male Grey Warden sexually attractive. He was never "BI" in DA:A.

Give me a youtube vid. Or heck even a conscript of this supposed conversation. 

Because frankly I've never heard or seen that in game. 

It happens during or after the Brood Mother's assault on the Vigil Keep/The City. Anders says something to the effect of "I love you but not in THAT way".

...?

How...is that disgust? 

And does he not say that same exact line to a Female Warden? 

[Ryzaki]

Dazaster Dellus wrote...

Yes that is true, but the Alien we are all thinking of only means one thing. Alien = Extraterrestrial and that word only has one definition. The one I provided above. There is no way to confuse that.

Unless of course they meant extraterrestrial and is capable of rational thought. There's now way to confuse that with wandering plantlife no way.  

I mean really it's obvious what they *meant*. You're being picky. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 24 avril 2011 - 12:03 .

[Vormaerin]

Dazaster Dellus wrote...

Yes that is true, but the Alien we are all thinking of only means one thing. Alien = Extraterrestrial and that word only has one definition. The one I provided above. There is no way to confuse that.

If you are going with contextual definitions, we were clearly dealing with aliens capable of being crewmembers.   The other poster argued that Cerberus had to have aliens on board the Human Supremacist Ship Normandy because sci fi space games require aliens.

They obviously don't. 

Not to mention the game would still have aliens even if none of them were on the crew.

Modifié par Vormaerin, 24 avril 2011 - 12:03 .

[Seboist]

Ryzaki wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Seboist wrote...
Anders expresses disgust at the thought of finding the male Grey Warden sexually attractive. He was never "BI" in DA:A.

Give me a youtube vid. Or heck even a conscript of this supposed conversation. 

Because frankly I've never heard or seen that in game. 

It happens during or after the Brood Mother's assault on the Vigil Keep/The City. Anders says something to the effect of "I love you but not in THAT way".

...?

How...is that disgust? 

And does he not say that same exact line to a Female Warden? 

I have no clue if he says it to a female warden and as far how it's "disgust"? Well for a guy who spent all game flirting with women and talking about womanizing, the SOLE moment he could express same sex attraction it ends up being negative.

Making Anders "bi" is the equivalent of doing it to Morrigan. It's freaking absurd.

[Vormaerin]

So when my gay friend told me "don't worry, you are butt ugly", he was really saying he's not gay?

[Ryzaki]

Seboist wrote...
I have no clue if he says it to a female warden and as far how it's "disgust"? Well for a guy who spent all game flirting with women and talking about womanizing, the SOLE moment he could express same sex attraction it ends up being negative.

Making Anders "bi" is the equivalent of doing it to Morrigan. It's freaking absurd.

...*facepalms*

Right and it might not have had anything to do with same sex attraction and everything to do with him seeing the Warden as an authority figure and one to be respected. (I noticed he flirted less with my Warden as time went on). Not that he had much flirting in the first place seeing as we were mostly covered in darkspawn gunk and running around like idiots and my warden was married. So unless you can prove that was only said to male Wardens (and in a disgusted tone nonetheless which I highly doubt) there's no using that as proof he's "straight." 

Again give me a youtube vid so I can hear his tone of voice. Unless of course you know that'll disprove your weak point. 

As for the latter . It's only absurd if you limit yourself to what the game gives you. That said I wouldn't romance Morrigan period. She's too morally bankrupt to be appealing. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 24 avril 2011 - 12:14 .

[Dazaster Dellus]

Ryzaki wrote...

Unless of course they meant extraterrestrial and is capable of rational thought. There's now way to confuse that with wandering plantlife no way. 

Well of course there would obviously be  classification to organize different species of Alien/ET just like our own Species classification chart, but that still doesn't change the fact that anything originating oustide of Earth is considered an Alien. Be it mammal, amphibious, plantlike, bacteria, cyborg, conscious machine,or any other sentient being.

[Eromenos]

ReconTeam wrote...

Eromenos wrote...
Yeah, and that reason would be to funnel overt gayness into the segregated free-speech zone just to placate the homophobes in this place.

That's funny, because it seems like they've made every effort to placate certain fanatics here who demand everybody be bisexual and think Bioware is "discriminating" for not adding such content.

Where is the "fair representation" of the people of (insert ethnic or religious group here)?

What about the religious homophobes? I already got done describing them and the people who bend their own lives around not offending them. Re-read my post.

Short answer, I could care less if there's religious spiel or not. Gods know DA has its load of it, in ways that closely parallel Christianity. Religions, and Christianity in particular, also happen to exist in ME. And yet my, my...M/M sexuality has been excluded from ME in spite of its actual existence in humanity predating Christians. And one day outliving Christianity, I'll wager. The fact that the ME team would choose to skate this way invalidates your whining about fundamentalist values being "eroded" by queers.

Modifié par Eromenos, 24 avril 2011 - 12:13 .

[Ryzaki]

Dazaster Dellus wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Unless of course they meant extraterrestrial and is capable of rational thought. There's now way to confuse that with wandering plantlife no way. 

Well of course there would obviously be  classification to organize different species of Alien/ET just like our own Species classification chart, but that still doesn't change the fact that anything originating oustide of Earth is considered an Alien. Be it mammal, amphibious, plantlike, bacteria, cyborg, conscious machine,or any other sentient being.

That doesn't change the point. You knew what they meant you're just nitpicking.  

[Vormaerin]

Seboist wrote...



I have no clue if he says it to a female warden and as far how it's "disgust"?

He does say the exact same line to a female warden, so clearly he's not interested in men or women.   Just in cats.  

[Ryzaki]

Vormaerin wrote...

Seboist wrote...



I have no clue if he says it to a female warden and as far how it's "disgust"?

He does say the exact same line to a female warden, so clearly he's not interested in men or women.   Just in cats.  

 

That's why the Wardens made him give away Ser Pounce A Lot!

Poor Ser Pounce A Lot. 

[Seboist]

Ryzaki wrote...

Seboist wrote...
I have no clue if he says it to a female warden and as far how it's "disgust"? Well for a guy who spent all game flirting with women and talking about womanizing, the SOLE moment he could express same sex attraction it ends up being negative.

Making Anders "bi" is the equivalent of doing it to Morrigan. It's freaking absurd.

...*facepalms*

Right and it might not have had anything to do with same sex attraction and everything to do with him seeing the Warden as an authority figure and one to be respected. (I noticed he flirted less with my Warden as time went on). Not that he had much flirting in the first place seeing as we were mostly covered in darkspawn gunk and running around like idiots and my warden was married. So unless you can prove that was only said to male Wardens (and in a disgusted tone nonetheless which I highly doubt) there's no using that as proof he's "straight." 

Again give me a youtube vid so I can hear his tone of voice. Unless of course you know that'll disprove your weak point. 

As for the latter . It's only absurd if you limit yourself to what the game gives you. 

Zevran and Leliana don't beat around the bush about their bisexuality but for some bizarre reason Anders is timid about it? Riiiight.

As for the Anders line, it's in there and frankly I'm not going to bother looking for it for someone who has his mind made up already.

Your laughable stance that he's "BI" because he simply didn't express it is enough justification to make ANY character bisexual from Duke Nukem to James Bond.

[Dazaster Dellus]

Vormaerin wrote...

Dazaster Dellus wrote...

Yes that is true, but the Alien we are all thinking of only means one thing. Alien = Extraterrestrial and that word only has one definition. The one I provided above. There is no way to confuse that.

If you are going with contextual definitions, we were clearly dealing with aliens capable of being crewmembers.   The other poster argued that Cerberus had to have aliens on board the Human Supremacist Ship Normandy because sci fi space games require aliens.

They obviously don't. 

Not to mention the game would still have aliens even if none of them were on the crew.

Yeah I get what you are saying. I also agree that space based stories don't have to feature the "aliens" most people are accustomed to. However, as I said if we are going by textbook/dictionary definition anything not from Earth would be alien. So in a factual sense, all scifi space stories (game, movie and book) do have aliens in them.

[Dazaster Dellus]

Ryzaki wrote...

Dazaster Dellus wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Unless of course they meant extraterrestrial and is capable of rational thought. There's now way to confuse that with wandering plantlife no way. 

Well of course there would obviously be  classification to organize different species of Alien/ET just like our own Species classification chart, but that still doesn't change the fact that anything originating oustide of Earth is considered an Alien. Be it mammal, amphibious, plantlike, bacteria, cyborg, conscious machine,or any other sentient being.

That doesn't change the point. You knew what they meant you're just nitpicking.  

lol

[jeweledleah]

Vormaerin wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...

holy cow, am I that incoherent that everything I say is misinterpreted to hell and back, or do you just try to twist my words?

No, you just post self evident, non controversial statements like that wall of text as if it was in some way a refutation of the point of the other person.   Except no one is arguing any of that.   Your position refutes some of the strawmen raised by the straights only crowd, but not anything argued by any of the pro s/s group.

So, naturally, since you sound like you are objecting to the posts you respond to, people understand your comments in the light of a supposed objection.   Except, you don't actually have one.

or maybe I'm just refuting points so minor that people skim right over them?  like me trying to show to Rizaki that there is no prior atraction between male shepard and Kaidan as well as female shepard and Ashley, so any romantic plot wrtten between those to cannot use "I was in love with you all along" premise? a premice that seems to be very popular among same sex crowd?

I'm also trying to show that writing in those romances while not impossible by any means, will be a lot more troublesome then just writing a romantic plot for a new character (or existing character that was not previously avaialbe as a romantic interest - that works even better, assuming they are guaranteed to survive into ME3 - like Joker)  I'm refuting the claim that its actualy easier to add romances for existing romantic interests, by showing that there are more variables involved with them that affect romance path, then with new characters.

Rizaki..sigh... I didn't say that  Anders is not bisexual in awakenings.  I said that anders in awakenings prefers women.  I didn't say that I dislike Anders being bisexual in DA2.  I said I dislike the way his romance path (as well as his character) was handled in general and for some people it is especialy jarring when its same sex dynamic.

and yes, I AM saying that you cannot have identical dynamic for s/s vs m/f romances with VS, simply becasue of the way their romance was set up in ME1.  in ME2 - Shepard initiates romances.  he, or she convinces his interests to look at him as more then just comander. Ashley and Kaidan however are already atracted. you are not initiating a new romance with them - you are either nurturing already existing atraction already existing romantic subplot, or you are nipping it in a bud.  even if you are blaming them for Eden prime beacon, that atraction is still there.  they frown but they still like you  (I found out the hard way that no, that first dialogue doesn't stop the romance - you don't get that option until after first storyline mission) its part of what makes evolution of their romances feel natural and its also a reason why so many people end up chosing which one of them to virmire solely becasue they do not want to end up with their romance flag.

becasue of that pre existing atraction or lack of thereof you cannot develop their romance in ME3 identicaly for s/s or m/f.  THIS is what I meant by history.

and lastly, why limit s/s romance to character who may or may not exist.  why keep forcing people to chose whom to leave on virmire based solely on romantic avaialbility and allow them to chose based on other factors isntead?  why not give people s/s options that are easier to write and are there no matter what?  IF bioware has time and resources to do both?  that would be just awesome.  I don't think they do though.

[Ryzaki]

Seboist wrote..
Zevran and Leliana don't beat around the bush about their bisexuality but for some bizarre reason Anders is timid about it? Riiiight.

As for the Anders line, it's in there and frankly I'm not going to bother looking for it for someone who has his mind made up already.

Your laughable stance that he's "BI" because he simply didn't express it is enough justification to make ANY character bisexual from Duke Nukem to James Bond.

You know there's this thing in real life called personality. Your sexual escapades don't have much of an influence on it. Some people go on and on about who they sleep with. *coughZEVRANcough* Some people wouldn't tell you unless you pried it out of them. And others will only tell you what they want to know *coughANDERScough* 

And since it's there for both genders. You have no point. Sorry. 

Wrong. Duke Nukem and James Bond aren't bisexual becase their wrtiers say they aren't bisexual. The day Gaider/Hepler say Anders *isn't* bisexual. (And indeed the REVERSE has happened) is the day I'll take that in effect. And since the reverse has happened (and was written) sorry. Anders is bisexual. Anders has *always* been bisexual. He doesn't need to wear a "I AM BISEXUAL." sign to be bisexual. 

Since you know Gaider Anders' original writer said Anders was perfectly IC to him including Anders' sexuality I'll take the you know the dude who created him words over yours. 

[Vormaerin]

Seboist wrote...

Your laughable stance that he's "BI" because he simply didn't express it is enough justification to make ANY character bisexual from Duke Nukem to James Bond.

Uhhh, no.   It means that you can't claim it was a retcon or some bizarro change of character that he later is shown to be bisexual.   There's nothing in Awakenings that indicates Anders is not bisexual.   So when he is later proven to be that, its not revisionism.

If all we had was Awakenings to go by, then it wouldn't be possible one way or the other to say if he was bisexual or not.  

[Eromenos]

Almostfaceman wrote...

Eromenos wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

Eromenos wrote...

Wizz wrote...

*sigh*
Pacifien usually closes such topics. For a reason.

Yeah, and that reason would be to funnel overt gayness into the segregated free-speech zone just to placate the homophobes in this place.

Um, no.  It's because these threads turn into, well, this.

www.ign.com/blogs/next-gen-gamer/2010/02/04/mass-effect-2-bad-romance

Any thread over a topic that people fight over and call each other names over and flame one another - is a nightmare to moderate on public boards with site rules similiar to this one's.  They get locked.  As a mod on other boards, I've locked threads that devolve into this for a wide variety of topics, not just homosexuality.  Examples of topics that usually turn into flame wars are: homosexuality, abortion, the death penalty, racism - you get the point.  

"Content that is insulting to anyone based on gender, lifestyle,
religion, ethic group, race etc. is unacceptable and will be deleted
without warning. A person or persons found to repeatedly slander others
may be banned from these forums at the discretion of the staff."

BioWare does not even follow its own rules. They permit homophobic trolls to attack all threads that contest BioWare's cowardice towards queer visibility in their own products. They're basically letting flames act as their excuse to reinforce their own commitment to silence on this topic.

[jeweledleah]

Rizaki, about Gaider and retcons...
"you only thought I was dead"
"maker decided it was not my time" (even though you quite literally lope her head off)

just saying

[Vormaerin]

jeweledleah wrote...

Rizaki, about Gaider and retcons...
"you only thought I was dead"
"maker decided it was not my time" (even though you quite literally lope her head off)

just saying

What are you talking about?  If you mean Leilana, he's quite clearly stated that they do have a story for her, that they haven't told you what it is, and that claiming her death had been retconned out of existance was premature.

All you know is that she is alive.  

[Ryzaki]

jeweledleah wrote...
or maybe I'm just refuting points so minor that people skim right over them?  like me trying to show to Rizaki that there is no prior atraction between male shepard and Kaidan as well as female shepard and Ashley, so any romantic plot wrtten between those to cannot use "I was in love with you all along" premise? a premice that seems to be very popular among same sex crowd?

You can't make a point that you can't prove. My Shepard was very attracted to Kaidan but was unable to act on it. (DAMN YOU DIALOGUE WHEEL). Edit: And stupid spacebar. And because of that Kaidan was also unable to act on anything. (Heck according to the devs they had to take the romance out at the last minute due to running out of time.) 

Again you can use the I was in love with you for a while when that character has been gone for a significant amount of time. I'm not arguing Kaidan was in love with Shepard from the beginning. That's just stupid. But falling in love with Shepard over time? Yes. 

I'm also trying to show that writing in those romances while not impossible by any means, will be a lot more troublesome then just writing a romantic plot for a new character (or existing character that was not previously avaialbe as a romantic interest - that works even better, assuming they are guaranteed to survive into ME3 - like Joker)  I'm refuting the claim that its actualy easier to add romances for existing romantic interests, by showing that there are more variables involved with them that affect romance path, then with new characters.

You think I don't know that? Its something I would like and as you say "fanservice." Ra forbid I like something that takes a bit of effort to put in. Edit: that's a bit unfair. Regardless I'm well aware that it's more work. However it's not more work than say making someone in ME2 a companion despite them being killable and then accomdating for their relationship with Shepard. 

Rizaki..sigh... I didn't say that  Anders is not bisexual in awakenings.  I said that anders in awakenings prefers women.  I didn't say that I dislike Anders being bisexual in DA2.  I said I dislike the way his romance path (as well as his character) was handled in general and for some people it is especialy jarring when its same sex dynamic.

Anders prefers women? Where did you get that impression? Only thing I saw is he liked women period. One of the things I was grateful for was he wasn't a LI like Zevran who was all "I prefer chicks but you'll do." 

Why is it especially jarring with the same sex version? What makes it stand out as being more jarring than usual? The fact that he is bisexual?

and yes, I AM saying that you cannot have identical dynamic for s/s vs m/f romances with VS, simply becasue of the way their romance was set up in ME1.  in ME2 - Shepard initiates romances.  he, or she convinces his interests to look at him as more then just comander. Ashley and Kaidan however are already atracted. you are not initiating a new romance with them - you are either nurturing already existing atraction already existing romantic subplot, or you are nipping it in a bud.  even if you are blaming them for Eden prime beacon, that atraction is still there.  they frown but they still like you  (I found out the hard way that no, that first dialogue doesn't stop the romance - you don't get that option until after first storyline mission) its part of what makes evolution of their romances feel natural and its also a reason why so many people end up chosing which one of them to virmire solely becasue they do not want to end up with their romance flag.

And let me put this very simply. 

You. Don't. Have. To. Romance. Kaidan/Ashley. With. An. Opposite. Gendered. Shepard. In. Mass. Effect. 1. 

Edit: Ah I'm up too late. This isn't meant to sound as patronizing as it probably does. 

You can say "focus on the mission." and that ends any romantic overtures right away. (Or at least it did when I was playing renedouche.) 

You don't even have to *play* ME1. What if you're in the middle of the game and decide "hey...I kind of like this guy. Why did I pick the other LI?" But you're 12 hours in game. Why not have Kaidan as a LI for either gendered Shepard in ME3 as well? What if you RP'd your Shepard as being focused on the mission at first but want them to get their feelings off their chest in ME3? 

That would be the initation of a new romance. And it can still follow a similar line as the s/s option. It can have the "I had feelings for you since X and you were focused on something else." theme. 

becasue of that pre existing atraction or lack of thereof you cannot develop their romance in ME3 identicaly for s/s or m/f.  THIS is what I meant by history.

and lastly, why limit s/s romance to character who may or may not exist.  why keep forcing people to chose whom to leave on virmire based solely on romantic avaialbility and allow them to chose based on other factors isntead?  why not give people s/s options that are easier to write and are there no matter what?  IF bioware has time and resources to do both?  that would be just awesome.  I don't think they do though.

Again you don't need the history you're claiming. Kaidan/Ashley could've remained attracted to a Shepard who saved them and talked to them and decided to not romance them. (But didn't start romancing and then reject).(I think its possible...I think there was a guide...somewhere. Had to wiggle through a lot of hoops but it was possible.)  

And lastly I never said that. I want Kaidan in addition to another s/s LI. It's not likely but when has that ever stopped someone from asking for something? 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 24 avril 2011 - 12:39 .

[Ryzaki]

Vormaerin wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...

Rizaki, about Gaider and retcons...
"you only thought I was dead"
"maker decided it was not my time" (even though you quite literally lope her head off)

just saying

What are you talking about?  If you mean Leilana, he's quite clearly stated that they do have a story for her, that they haven't told you what it is, and that claiming her death had been retconned out of existance was premature.

All you know is that she is alive.  

Thank you for saying it before I could. 

Zevran is supposed to stay dead but it's a bug. 

[jeweledleah]

you know what retcon is,right? http://en.wikipedia....ive_continuity. specific type addition, when it comes to expanding characters romantic availability.
in case of Leliana (and to a degree anders, who also can die prior to DA2) - that would be alteration.

but... its still a retcon.

Anders prefers women. I prefer men. I'm also not attracted to women, but I still can say that I prefer men. a preference is a preference. just like liking women doesn't mean you cannot like men, so does saying that you prefer women can also mean just that... that you prefer women.

and to quote Gaidar (I have to bookmark that link, seriously) just because you chose not to pursue something , doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Ander's relationship with Karl exists for all Hawkes, male or female, romanced or non romanced. he just happens to tell about it in one specific instance only. just because you chose not to romance Ash, Kaidan or anyone at all in ME1 doesn't mean that they weren't attracted to opposite gender Shepard from the start before you nipped it in a bud. that attraction existed regardless of your actions, all you did was stop it before it could grow. it IS a factor, and you cannot just dismiss it without turning it into a blatant alteration, ala heat sinks.

I want proof that ME1 romance was taken out at the last minute. I want a quote. because form what I can see - the romance was taken out long before they started recording voice overs, since the only voicework that exists is Meer's saying Hale's lines, while Hale says meer's lines for one specific scene. what was it, 2 extra recorded lines each? personal theory - it was taken out because they wrote m/f romance in such a polarizing fashion, they could not figure out how to create a connection that would be just as meaningful for s/s version in time.