912 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

jeweledleah wrote...

you know what retcon is,right? http://en.wikipedia....ive_continuity. specific type addition, when it comes to expanding characters romantic availability.
in case of Leliana (and to a degree anders, who also can die prior to DA2) - that would be alteration.

but... its still a retcon.

Anders prefers women. I prefer men. I'm also not attracted to women, but I still can say that I prefer men. a preference is a preference. just like liking women doesn't mean you cannot like men, so does saying that you prefer women can also mean just that... that you prefer women.

and to quote Gaidar (I have to bookmark that link, seriously) just because you chose not to pursue something , doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Ander's relationship with Karl exists for all Hawkes, male or female, romanced or non romanced. he just happens to tell about it in one specific instance only. just because you chose not to romance Ash, Kaidan or anyone at all in ME1 doesn't mean that they weren't attracted to opposite gender Shepard from the start before you nipped it in a bud. that attraction existed regardless of your actions, all you did was stop it before it could grow. it IS a factor, and you cannot just dismiss it without turning it into a blatant alteration, ala heat sinks.

I want proof that ME1 romance was taken out at the last minute. I want a quote. because form what I can see - the romance was taken out long before they started recording voice overs, since the only voicework that exists is Meer's saying Hale's lines, while Hale says meer's lines for one specific scene. what was it, 2 extra recorded lines each? personal theory - it was taken out because they wrote m/f romance in such a polarizing fashion, they could not figure out how to create a connection that would be just as meaningful for s/s version in time.

I wish you would stop talking for characters you didn't write and didn't tell you what you're claiming and trying to pass it off as undisputable fact. 

I want to see where Anders says he prefers women. I will find the quote about the m/m for you though. Don't worry. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 24 avril 2011 - 12:52 .

[jeweledleah]

wait, do you want me to just say that he likes women and doesn't like men? weren't you just trying to convince everyone that one doesn't not exclude the other in which case saying "prefers" is perfectly valid?

what are we arguing about here exactly?

[Ryzaki]

jeweledleah wrote...

wait, do you want me to just say that he likes women and doesn't like men? weren't you just trying to convince everyone that one doesn't not exclude the other in which case saying "prefers" is perfectly valid?

what are we arguing about here exactly?

I'm not saying he doesn't like women. You have no authority to say he prefers women over men. For all you know he likes them equally. 

And I shouldn't have said he preferred women either. I don't know that. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 24 avril 2011 - 01:00 .

[Eromenos]

SalsaDMA wrote...

Loose/gain content? That's what you think it is about?

It's about massive retconning of characters. People aren't asking for 'more' content. They are asking for existing content to be changed to cater to their specific little fantasy. In this effect I actually would be loosing content, as characters rewritten were no longer the characters they used to be, but someone new. Not to mention the whole fact that this is the 3rd part of trilogy, and from a storytelling perspective it would be one hell of a mess to suddenly sweep as big a change to a character in under the rug as a change in sexual preference would be for the audience.

Oh, that dreaded "change"? Those 2 were already developed as bisexual. The same-sex attraction aspects were chopped off only to appease homophobic elements in the straight community. Any retcon associated with their sexuality was committed by BioWare itself. The original homophobic choice to exclude same-sex attraction from these characters was the real execution of depriving us content.

But please, do try harder to cast queer gamers as feeling overly entitled to "special privileges." The facts are that excessive straight-privileges (in our world and the ME-universe) are the ones that cry victim whenever they feel unable to grow fatter.

In all honesty, at first I wouldn't even had raised an eyebrow if BW, to cater to frothing 'straigthophobes' (if that is even a word, but it somehow suits the people in here that are so vehemently against straigth people in their games), had included a new LI option for that segment only. After all, if it didn't touch with the establishment of the old characters what would be the issue, right?

What a laugh. So you'd have to be "lowering yourself" if you can only choose among "less-than-perfect" selections, eh? What is it that makes them less-than-perfect to you? I guess all bi people must be scum? Seems like to you it's less about the person and more about their labeling. So it's permissible when they're all straight characters who coincidentally do nothing and know nothing about human M/M sexuality. Yes...anything to avoid knocking heterosexuality down from its pedestal. Poor victims.

Go be straight with a bisexual woman. Go be straight with a bisexual man. What? In any homophobic setting, the partner who identifies as straight still gets to retain more "cred." That is what you're so jealously trying to guard.

Modifié par Eromenos, 24 avril 2011 - 01:14 .

[Vormaerin]

jeweledleah wrote...

you know what retcon is,right? http://en.wikipedia....ive_continuity. specific type addition, when it comes to expanding characters romantic availability.
in case of Leliana (and to a degree anders, who also can die prior to DA2) - that would be alteration.

*sigh*  Retroactive continuity would require that they said "No, Leilana did not die despite what you think happened."   There is no evidence yet that that is what will occur.   "Leilana died and something strange happened later" is not a retcon.  Its something strange happening later.  It might be good, it might be stupid.  But its not retroactive.

As far as I know, Anders is a retcon for those playthroughs where he dies, as I am not aware of any attempt to explain that way other than "it didn't happen".

Yes, some people use "retroactive continuity" to mean adding details that weren't previously known, but don't contradict anything.  But that definition means that just about everything ever written is a retcon.    Gandalf telling Bilbo where he was when he wasn't with the party in Mirkwood is a retcon, because its told after the fact.   That definition is, frankly, stupid.  And even if its not, its certainly not perjorative.

[chq]

jeweledleah wrote...

I want proof that ME1 romance was taken out at the last minute. I want a quote. because form what I can see - the romance was taken out long before they started recording voice overs, since the only voicework that exists is Meer's saying Hale's lines, while Hale says meer's lines for one specific scene. what was it, 2 extra recorded lines each? personal theory - it was taken out because they wrote m/f romance in such a polarizing fashion, they could not figure out how to create a connection that would be just as meaningful for s/s version in time.

...you mean like how Hale says Meer's lines and Meer says Hale's lines for the entire game...?  

[Ryzaki]

and to quote Gaidar (I have to bookmark that link, seriously) just
because you chose not to pursue something , doesn't mean it doesn't
exist. Ander's relationship with Karl exists for all Hawkes, male or
female, romanced or non romanced. he just happens to tell about it in
one specific instance only. just because you chose not to romance Ash,
Kaidan or anyone at all in ME1 doesn't mean that they weren't attracted
to opposite gender Shepard from the start before you nipped it in a bud.
that attraction existed regardless of your actions, all you did was
stop it before it could grow. it IS a factor, and you cannot just
dismiss it without turning it into a blatant alteration, ala heat sinks.

Right the the ME2 devs and the DA2 devs are two different teams.

You mean they can't be attracted to same gendered Shepard later on? What about that makes it impossible? You'd end up altering what...a few lines. It would turn from "when I first met you..." to "after you saved me on Virmire..." It doesn't have to be anywhere near as much work as you're claiming. And it would add a flavor of more difference between the s/s romance and the m/f romance.
Edit: that said I'm getting crabby so I'll finish this tomorrow when I'm not trying to bite someone's head off. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 24 avril 2011 - 01:18 .

[AngelicMachinery]

Vormaerin wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...

you know what retcon is,right? http://en.wikipedia....ive_continuity. specific type addition, when it comes to expanding characters romantic availability.
in case of Leliana (and to a degree anders, who also can die prior to DA2) - that would be alteration.

*sigh*  Retroactive continuity would require that they said "No, Leilana did not die despite what you think happened."   There is no evidence yet that that is what will occur.   "Leilana died and something strange happened later" is not a retcon.  Its something strange happening later.  It might be good, it might be stupid.  But its not retroactive.

As far as I know, Anders is a retcon for those playthroughs where he dies, as I am not aware of any attempt to explain that way other than "it didn't happen".

Yes, some people use "retroactive continuity" to mean adding details that weren't previously known, but don't contradict anything.  But that definition means that just about everything ever written is a retcon.    Gandalf telling Bilbo where he was when he wasn't with the party in Mirkwood is a retcon, because its told after the fact.   That definition is, frankly, stupid.  And even if its not, its certainly not perjorative.

Speaking of Lord of the Rings and Retcon,  the chapter Riddles in the Dark was retconned to make the trilogy make more sense.  Not all Retconning is bad.

[Vormaerin]

That's true. Its always amusing how many people refuse to accept that people might lie about important things. I ran into that a lot DMing NWN games. The idea that the quest giver might be lying was apparently beyond the grasp of lots of players.

The idea that a few dozen lines of dialogue with a recent acquaintance tells you everything about them is equally mind boggling.

[jeweledleah]

Ryzaki wrote...

and to quote Gaidar (I have to bookmark that link, seriously) just
because you chose not to pursue something , doesn't mean it doesn't
exist. Ander's relationship with Karl exists for all Hawkes, male or
female, romanced or non romanced. he just happens to tell about it in
one specific instance only. just because you chose not to romance Ash,
Kaidan or anyone at all in ME1 doesn't mean that they weren't attracted
to opposite gender Shepard from the start before you nipped it in a bud.
that attraction existed regardless of your actions, all you did was
stop it before it could grow. it IS a factor, and you cannot just
dismiss it without turning it into a blatant alteration, ala heat sinks.

Right he the ME2 devs and the DA2 devs are two different teams.

You mean they can't be attracted to same gendered Shepard later on? What about that makes it impossible? You'd end up altering what...a few lines. It would turn from "when I first met you..." to "after you saved me on Virmire..." It doesn't have to be anywhere near as much work as you're claiming.

and unlike DA team, ME team doesn't retcon deaths either. and I'm sorry, I'm not seeing virmire as a catalyst.  shepard presumably saves  specific VS for professional reasons only and even then, they feel guilty.  if in romance, they are riddled with doubts, guilt that you chose them becasue you were not impartial and they just cannot allow that.  Not seeing Horizon as one either, not with all the anger and dissapointment it conveyed.  maybe the change in feelings happens after they start working together again in ME3 with its events to serve as catalyst and even then, it seems more natural if its Shepard who changes the nature of their relationship, rather then VS, to me.

as far as writing, to compare it to rivaly/friendship differences - both paths eventualy end up in the same spot and the difference sometimes ammunts to only a few lines per scene, but that difference is still there, its persistent, relationship still has a different feel to it.  and its extra lines to be writen, to be recorded.. except in case of VS you have 3 possible paths instead of 2.

its more work then adding in a romance for previously unavailable character.  we don't know how they will set up a comic yet, we don't even know how they are going to handle all the people who started playing with ME2 but didn't have the benefit of PS3 comic and didn't use save files, so they are playing with default shepard and his/her default VS.  granted - if done, it could be a lot more rewarding then new character.  but I'd rather not see it come down to choice between expanding romantic avaialbility for couple of old favorites vs meaningful roles for ME2 (and ME1) squadmates in general.  shot cameos suck :/

[Ryzaki]

And we're not gonna agree.

Virmire is a perfectly good catalyst to me.

So good in fact that I have a plot bunny. At least this conversation was good for something.

[Vormaerin]

jeweledleah wrote...

its more work then adding in a romance for previously unavailable character.  

but I'd rather not see it come down to choice between expanding romantic avaialbility for couple of old favorites vs meaningful roles for ME2 (and ME1) squadmates in general.  shot cameos suck :/

The first sentence is guesswork on your part and is also based on the assumption that their will be new squadmates regardless.   If Kaiden, for example, is already being developed as an LI, then there is only minor tweaks that need to be introduced to make that an s/s LI.   After all, you are still going to have to have the "what have you been up to for the last 2-3 years" conversation whether friend, m/f, or m/m LI.   You are still going to have to have the "WTF was up with our last meeting" conversation.    And so on.

A new squadmate will need the whole back story and dialogue for friend or either sort of lover.  Its not innately less work than what is required for the VS.

That said, if your 2nd statement is your real objective, you really need to be pushing for no romances at all.  Romances are a vast black hole of RP development time.   There's 9 of them already (and you are proposing more) and you only get the RP value of one per playthrough....   talk about inefficiencty.

[Lucifer_Cheney]

yorkj86 wrote...

Next, I'd like to see Bioware write an asexual (as it pertains to sexual orientation, or lack thereof, not the means of reproduction) LI. I predict that people would get asspained over not getting any, and completely overlook the romantic portion of the romance.

So you're saying you want this relationship to be like most marriages?

[AngelicMachinery]

Lucifer_Cheney wrote...

yorkj86 wrote...

Next, I'd like to see Bioware write an asexual (as it pertains to sexual orientation, or lack thereof, not the means of reproduction) LI. I predict that people would get asspained over not getting any, and completely overlook the romantic portion of the romance.

So you're saying you want this relationship to be like most marriages?

I think that's Sebastian's Romance actually.

[Ryzaki]

Lucifer_Cheney wrote...

yorkj86 wrote...

Next, I'd like to see Bioware write an asexual (as it pertains to sexual orientation, or lack thereof, not the means of reproduction) LI. I predict that people would get asspained over not getting any, and completely overlook the romantic portion of the romance.

So you're saying you want this relationship to be like most marriages?

Thank you.

I can't stop laughing now.   

@AngelicMachinery: considering Seb offers a "Chaste marriage" it stil fits. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 24 avril 2011 - 02:08 .

[HealthyGiraffe]

Why does Commander Shepard have to be gay? Why do Bioware have to include gay characters in every game they make? Maybe they have decided that none of the characters we have met so far are gay. Most people aren't - especially those in the military.

It doesn't make them homophobic and it isn't discrimination. Yes, this is a role playing game, but there are many things about Commander Shepard that are set in stone.

I'm fine with seeing a homosexual character in Mass Effect 3, but they have to be a gay character. It makes no sense having a character like Ashley be into women (which was originally planned in ME1). They shouldn't be characters that switch back and forth depending on the gender of the playercharacter.

[Maugrim]

Vormaerin wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...

its more work then adding in a romance for previously unavailable character.  

but I'd rather not see it come down to choice between expanding romantic avaialbility for couple of old favorites vs meaningful roles for ME2 (and ME1) squadmates in general.  shot cameos suck :/

That said, if your 2nd statement is your real objective, you really need to be pushing for no romances at all.  Romances are a vast black hole of RP development time.   There's 9 of them already (and you are proposing more) and you only get the RP value of one per playthrough....   talk about inefficiencty.

The solution is obvious.... polyamorous relationships! Now to talk Miranda, Tali, Jack, Liara and Ashley into getting along!

Modifié par makenzieshepard, 24 avril 2011 - 02:16 .

[Vormaerin]

HealthyGiraffe wrote...

Why does Commander Shepard have to be gay? Why do Bioware have to include gay characters in every game they make? Maybe they have decided that none of the characters we have met so far are gay. Most people aren't - especially those in the military.

Why do they have to waste time on romances at all?  Most people you meet aren't hot for your body, especially not five or six people at once.

If they are going to include fanservice like romances, which most definitely are popular, why should they not include ones for all the major elements of their fanbase?  Why exclude some?

Btw, the "especially those in the military" is a false statement.  Its only true in a some militaries such as the USA's and then only because its illegal according the military code of justice.  

As for whether the character is homosexual or bisexual, that's really neither here nor there.   The only reason characters are usually bi is resources.   If gay Ashley is only romanced in 20% of games, then she's wasted in the other 80%.    Whereas bisexual Ashley is romance-able in 100% of games (if you ignore the other LIs taking up time).

[HealthyGiraffe]

Vormaerin wrote...

Why do they have to waste time on romances at all?  Most people you meet aren't hot for your body, especially not five or six people at once.

Ask Bioware. It's their game and it's their decision. This has nothing to do with my point. I was just explaining that the fact there is no homosexuality in ME doesn't mean the devs are homophobes - like so many are suggesting. 

If they are going to include fanservice like romances, which most definitely are popular, why should they not include ones for all the major elements of their fanbase?  Why exclude some?

Because making someone a love interest requires character development and emotional connection - something that takes lots of effort. Making everyone a love interest would be stupid. 

Btw, the "especially those in the military" is a false statement.  Its only true in a some militaries such as the USA's and then only because its illegal according the military code of justice.   

I've done four tours. One in Iraq and three in Afghanistan. I've worked with the combat personnel from eleven different countries and the non-combat personnel from around thirty. Not once was homosexuality even mentioned, and if it was, it was always met with bigotry and anti-homophobic ignorance. The US military acted like this, as did the French. Didn't matter. Soldiering is an incredibly masculine profession.

The estimate occurance of homosexuality in general life is around 10%, In the military, it would be even lower. I am compeltely certain of it. 

Maybe the situation has changed a hundred years in the future though. Either way, maybe we just haven't met any openly gay characters yet? Chances are you wouldn't. Absence of something doesn't mean discrimination. That's the point I'm making here. 

As for whether the character is homosexual or bisexual, that's really neither here nor there.   The only reason characters are usually bi is resources.   If gay Ashley is only romanced in 20% of games, then she's wasted in the other 80%.    Whereas bisexual Ashley is romance-able in 100% of games (if you ignore the other LIs taking up time).

And it would only serve to make the romance seem even more gimmicky and stupid. I don't care about resource management, or the wasted "80%" of games. Having Ashley be bisexual for the sake of laziness would be stupid. I believe a gay character should be gay. They shouldn't be gay when I want them to and straight when I don't. 

[Vormaerin]

HealthyGiraffe wrote...



I've done four tours. One in Iraq and three in Afghanistan. I've worked with the combat personnel from eleven different countries and the non-combat personnel from around thirty. Not once was homosexuality even mentioned, and if it was, it was always met with bigotry and anti-homophobic ignorance. The US military acted like this, as did the French. Didn't matter. Soldiering is an incredibly masculine profession.

Did you miss the part where I said that its freaking illegal to even admit to it?  Of course the incidence is lower in the military.  You can't even join unless you can hide it.  But the fact that it is illegal is a feature of certain militaries, not of the military in general. 

And, again, you are ignoring that homosexuality is already in the game.  Its just for girls only at the moment.

Further, the fact that 10% of the population is gay in real life has little to do with how many are interesting in RPing a gay romance in game.   Seriously, do you think everyone only plays themselves?   That girls only play femsheps and guys only play mansheps?

HealthyGiraffe wrote...

[I believe a gay character should be gay. They shouldn't be gay when I want them to and straight when I don't. 

How about if they are bisexual all the time because they like being bisexual and they don't give a rat's behind what you think about it?

Modifié par Vormaerin, 24 avril 2011 - 03:59 .

[Vormaerin]

HealthyGiraffe wrote...
I was just explaining that the fact there is no homosexuality in ME doesn't mean the devs are homophobes - like so many are suggesting. 
 

Actually, I missed this...  no one has claimed the devs are homophobes.  Some folks have accused the more militantly "no gays in our game" fans of being homophobes.   I neither know nor care what they think about homosexuals in the real world.  I just think they are selfish because they feel that all the romance resources should be devoted solely to them.

[jeweledleah]

Vormaerin wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...

its more work then adding in a romance for previously unavailable character.  

but I'd rather not see it come down to choice between expanding romantic avaialbility for couple of old favorites vs meaningful roles for ME2 (and ME1) squadmates in general.  shot cameos suck :/

The first sentence is guesswork on your part and is also based on the assumption that their will be new squadmates regardless.   If Kaiden, for example, is already being developed as an LI, then there is only minor tweaks that need to be introduced to make that an s/s LI.   After all, you are still going to have to have the "what have you been up to for the last 2-3 years" conversation whether friend, m/f, or m/m LI.   You are still going to have to have the "WTF was up with our last meeting" conversation.    And so on.

A new squadmate will need the whole back story and dialogue for friend or either sort of lover.  Its not innately less work than what is required for the VS.

That said, if your 2nd statement is your real objective, you really need to be pushing for no romances at all.  Romances are a vast black hole of RP development time.   There's 9 of them already (and you are proposing more) and you only get the RP value of one per playthrough....   talk about inefficiencty.

James Sanders.  first confirmed new squad mate.  we know we're gettign at least one new character who is not a villian.  I'm not guessing here, I'm quoting.
KaidAN.  its A  not E.  Kaidan is already an LI, his existing arc is being developed.  making it into s/s relationship, as well as making him availble as fresh LI in third instalment will require work.  as much work as writing a new romance.  more in fact.

I don't wish to push for no romances at all,  becasue a lot of the fans are invested into them, becasue choices really ARE nice.

in adition as many of them as there are already, they are already a black hole of development time, you are right about that.  expanding existing romances into both old and new is... think about it.  they need to work for Shepards who didn't take advantage of the opportunities before, they need to work for shepards who are already in a relationship, and now they need to be believably expanded into bisexual option?  sure it can be done, but you don't have to explain a new character, you don't have to figure out how to make them consistantly work with all the extra possibilities, you don't have to look back and verify that yes, it makes sence in context of previous games. 

you have to pick and chose.  Developers were saying that they are picking and chosing who comes back in which capacity becasue of having to deal with all those variables and possible deaths, because they have limited resources.  if not for that mention, I wouldn't have anything against expanding existing LI -  all you really need is good writers, time and money.  new characters have no pre-existing variables attached to them.

[Vormaerin]

I don't agree that its more work than a new romance. Do you have some secret information that Ashley won't be an LI if you aren't importing from ME1? Because, otherwise, you'll have to have content for a 'just met the character in ME3' romance. The whole reason the devs always go with the bisexual character is because writing a romance that goes both ways is negligibly more work than writing the romance in the first place.

Writing a pure gay character is the real problem, because that would be catering to a minority in a big way.

[Torhagen]

Erm don't choose the dialogue option with the heart then ?

[AngelicMachinery]

Torhagen wrote...

Erm don't choose the dialogue option with the heart then ?

Heart are lame,  I want a red text romance BD/SM please.