912 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

The romances are pandering to begin with. Nothing about that would change. It would just be pandering to a different group of people.

Oh noes.

Sorry there isn't any deep meaning to romances other than fanservice (all fansevice isn't bad!) and further allowing one to customize their Shepard. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 24 avril 2011 - 06:43 .

[HealthyGiraffe]

Ryzaki wrote...

The romances are pandering to begin with. Nothing about that would change. It would just be pandering to a different group of people.

Oh noes.

Sorry there isn't any deep meaning to romances other than fanservice (all fansevice isn't bad!) and further allowing one to customize their Shepard. 

Sorry, but I think fan service IS bad. Creating art is about a singular vision. It isn't about pandering to what people expect of you. All the great creators in history have kept this rule. Why do we treat video game developers so differently? It is because games are interactive whilst paintings, books and films aren't? 

A camel is a horse designed by committee. 

[Vormaerin]

No one is denying that you can express your opinion about the subject. I've not said you couldn't.

Nor do I recall anyone asking for some kind of 50/50 gay/straight split. That's another strawman.

But, being both an ex service man (from before the 1992 DADT policy, fwiw) and also trained as a cultural anthropologist and military historian, I find your anecdotal evidence lacking. This idea that liberals don't serve is silly and so is the idea that gays are innately liberal tending or otherwise non martial.

I'm sorry about the confusion whether we are talking the American legal framework, but I was pretty clear that I was citing the United States Code, Article X and that UCMJ so that's not all on me.

[Vormaerin]

HealthyGiraffe wrote...

Sorry, but I think fan service IS bad. Creating art is about a singular vision. It isn't about pandering to what people expect of you. All the great creators in history have kept this rule. Why do we treat video game developers so differently? It is because games are interactive whilst paintings, books and films aren't? 

The fact that Bioware is trying to make money.   If they wanted to be a starving artist famous after they all went bankrupt and died, then they could apply different standards. 

[Ryzaki]

HealthyGiraffe wrote...
Sorry, but I think fan service IS bad. Creating art is about a singular vision. It isn't about pandering to what people expect of you. All the great creators in history have kept this rule. Why do we treat video game developers so differently? It is because games are interactive whilst paintings, books and films aren't? 

A camel is a horse designed by committee. 

Then I would hope you would be against romances in general because at the end of the day that's exactly what they are. Fanservice. 

And again asking for something isn't anymore pandering than asking for BW to put in a certain weapon, or include a certain character in the game. BW will pander to certain audiences (hello Tali and Garrus). We're not twisting their arm but rather offering a suggestion. 

And game making is a business and as such will have business rules attached to it. It's woefully optimistic and naive to assume they only do things because they want to and it's art. Some things are thrown in because the devs thnk its a good idea, some things are thrown in to increase their audience. (Not that s/s would necessarily be one of those things). As a business it's tainted by business practices. And part of business practices is pandering. It's why so many movies have a love/nude scene even though the movie doesn't need one, it's why sex sells among other things. 

As for books. I have yet to see a site where people could interact with writers/painters and filmakers and offer advice and desires for what they put in their next work. 

I don't understand the last comment. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 24 avril 2011 - 06:52 .

[didymos1120]

HealthyGiraffe wrote...

A camel is a horse designed by committee. 

A camel (either variety) is a rather different organism that's very well-adapted to the environment it inhabits and capable of things a horse is not.  Also: trite saying is trite.

Modifié par didymos1120, 24 avril 2011 - 06:55 .

[Praetor Knight]

For what it's worth; no Paramour in ME3 is fine by me.

[HealthyGiraffe]

Vormaerin wrote...

No one is denying that you can express your opinion about the subject. I've not said you couldn't.

Nor do I recall anyone asking for some kind of 50/50 gay/straight split. That's another strawman. 

Well what are you suggesting? This whole time you have been attacking my opinions and experiences you have completely failed to mention your opinion. You've probably said it somewhere else in the thread but I can't be bothered trying to find it.

How many gay men do you want as squadmates in ME 3? 1? 2? 3? 

But, being both an ex service man (from before the 1992 DADT policy, fwiw) and also trained as a cultural anthropologist and military historian, I find your anecdotal evidence lacking. This idea that liberals don't serve is silly and so is the idea that gays are innately liberal tending or otherwise non martial.

I meant liberals in a very different sense of how you are implying it here. Gay people are more likely to hold progressive values and to place a huge emphasis on social welfare. People like this are less likely to go and fight in the Afghan war. This is blatantly obvious and I know you beleive it. You just prefer to see an intellectual pissing contest and repeat phrases like "well, that's not valid" and "where is the evidence?" The evidence is infront of your eyes. It's in the society you live in. You say you've served, well then it's obvious you know this. If you were in a direct combat role as I was, you know this just as well as I do.

[HealthyGiraffe]

Ryzaki wrote...


Then I would hope you would be against romances in general because at the end of the day that's exactly what they are. Fanservice. 

Bull**** claim. Your argument revolves around this intial claim and I think it's nonsense. 

Maybe Bioware want a romantic link to their protagonist. It's not that unreasonable. Most writers want this. 

[Ryzaki]

HealthyGiraffe wrote...
Bull**** claim. Your argument revolves around this intial claim and I think it's nonsense. 

Maybe Bioware want a romantic link to their protagonist. It's not that unreasonable. Most writers want this. 

If that was the case it wouldn't be completely optional. 

And how is the claim that the romances are fanservice BS? Because it doesn't back up your claim that fanservice is always bad? Get over it. All Fanservice isn't bad. If you want to pick and choose what fanservice you want in the game that's fine but be honest about it. It's Fanservice. 

If that was the chase Shepard would have a canon LI (or very few options) instead they went out of their way to give Shepard up to 9 different LIs. All with distinct personalities and influences on the plot as well as having the choice of having no LI at all. All these LIs have a love scene. (6 of them have unique love scenes). 

You're kind of cherrypicking what's fanservice and what's not. Fanservice isn't just for minorities. Fanservice can also be something preferred by the devs (hello DAO and DA2) to give the player a more personal stake. 

Still fanservice. 

You want to pretend it's not fanservice to validate your claims go ahead. 

It'll always be fanservice though. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 24 avril 2011 - 07:09 .

[Vormaerin]

HealthyGiraffe wrote...
I meant liberals in a very different sense of how you are implying it here. Gay people are more likely to hold progressive values and to place a huge emphasis on social welfare. People like this are less likely to go and fight in the Afghan war. This is blatantly obvious and I know you beleive it. You just prefer to see an intellectual pissing contest and repeat phrases like "well, that's not valid" and "where is the evidence?" The evidence is infront of your eyes. It's in the society you live in. You say you've served, well then it's obvious you know this. If you were in a direct combat role as I was, you know this just as well as I do.

I don't care how many gay romances they have in ME3.  I don't generally like Bioware's romances (Jaheira's was pretty good, if you ignored the screwed up timeframe).   They are almost all pretty silly.   If I designed the game, they wouldn't waste resources on them at all.   But I do object to the idea that only straight characters deserve fanservice if the designers want to put fanservice in the game.

As for you anecdotes about gay views, I'm saying that while that may be true right here and now in Western culture, its not a given.   Progressives have started just as many wars as conservatives and many cultures don't have the same disdain for military service that ours imputes to "liberals".

And there are many cultures where homosexuality is manly or, at least, not held in contempt.     So you are trying to make a general point based on anecdotal evidence.  Its true, to some extent, for the current situation in our military.    But its not true as a general rule.  So arguing from that is specious.

[didymos1120]

HealthyGiraffe wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...


Then I would hope you would be against romances in general because at the end of the day that's exactly what they are. Fanservice. 

Bull**** claim. Your argument revolves around this intial claim and I think it's nonsense. 

Maybe Bioware want a romantic link to their protagonist. It's not that unreasonable. Most writers want this. 

Maybe they do like it for its own sake, but make no mistake: they put them in because fans like them.  A lot.  Were it not so, they wouldn't be doing them to anything like the extent they do, and they wouldn't spend so much time doing marketing/PR based on the LIs.

[ElitePinecone]

HealthyGiraffe wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...


Then I would hope you would be against romances in general because at the end of the day that's exactly what they are. Fanservice. 

Bull**** claim. Your argument revolves around this intial claim and I think it's nonsense. 

Maybe Bioware want a romantic link to their protagonist. It's not that unreasonable. Most writers want this. 

Tone down the personal attacks. It's undignified. 

A quote from Casey Hudson, executive producer for ME2:

"one of the big ones was Garrus, people just loved Garrus and there was a love of interest in having a romance with Garrus. So we thought, "Let's try this in Mass Effect 2." If people want to have a romance with this bird-like guy with an exoskeleton, then okay."

Fans demanded a romance with Garrus. Fans got their wish. And this isn't fanservice?

I'm not claiming they're all like that by any means. But this quote clearly shows that input from fans forms at least a part of Bioware's decision-making process.

[Maugrim]

HealthyGiraffe wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...


Then I would hope you would be against romances in general because at the end of the day that's exactly what they are. Fanservice. 

Bull**** claim. Your argument revolves around this intial claim and I think it's nonsense. 

Maybe Bioware want a romantic link to their protagonist. It's not that unreasonable. Most writers want this. 

Outside of Baldur's Gate every single Bioware rpg with would've had a s/s LI if it was up to them and economically feasible.  The only possible contention is ME2 where we do have some s/s stuff recorded but not info on why it was cut.

Ok not Sonic Chronicles AFAIK....can anyone confirm or deny this?

ETA: I forgot about NWN at first but a quick wiki walk and my point still stands true, gays everywhere!

Modifié par makenzieshepard, 24 avril 2011 - 07:24 .

[Vormaerin]

They've made it clear over many games now that they do romances because fans want them, but that its pretty obvious they soak up resources pretty inefficiently, since they involve a lot of expensive content (cut scenes, voice acting) that isn't used by the majority of players (in that no one LI is going to get full utilization across the fanbase).

[HealthyGiraffe]

ElitePinecone wrote...


Tone down the personal attacks. It's undignified. 

Saying that a claim is bull**** is not a personal attack at all. I think your over sensitivity is undignified. 

Saying Ryzaki's claim was nonsense =/= me personally attacking him/her. 

[Ryzaki]

HealthyGiraffe wrote...

ElitePinecone wrote...


Tone down the personal attacks. It's undignified. 

Saying that a claim is bull**** is not a personal attack at all. I think your over sensitivity is undignified. 

Saying Ryzaki's claim was nonsense =/= me personally attacking him/her. 

Why are you getting so butthurt over the truth? 

Sorry but it's fanservice no matter how much you pretend otherwise. Straight from the horses mouth according to that quote from ElitePinecone. 

Putting something in because the fans will like it (despite not even considering it before and not understanding it) is fanservice. 

Sorry. It is. You want to shove your head in the sand go ahead. It'll still be fanservice at the end of the day. 

The whole "I like it so it *can't* be fanservice!" is just....well it's sad and looks like you're in denial. Either that or you don't know what fanservice is and want to just say its bad. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 24 avril 2011 - 07:34 .

[Praetor Knight]

Fanservice.

Of following Lucas be careful. Yes, hmmm.

[HealthyGiraffe]

Ryzaki wrote...

HealthyGiraffe wrote...

ElitePinecone wrote...


Tone down the personal attacks. It's undignified. 

Saying that a claim is bull**** is not a personal attack at all. I think your over sensitivity is undignified. 

Saying Ryzaki's claim was nonsense =/= me personally attacking him/her. 

Why are you getting so butthurt over the truth? 

Sorry but it's fanservice no matter how much you pretend otherwise. Straight from the horses mouth according to that quote from ElitePinecone. 

Putting something in because the fans will like it (despite not even considering it before and not understanding it) is fanservice. 

Sorry. It is. You want to shove your head in the sand go ahead. It'll still be fanservice at the end of the day. 

The whole "I like it so it *can't* be fanservice!" is just....well it's sad and looks like you're in denial. Either that or you don't know what fanservice is and want to just say its bad. 

Lolwut? 

I'm not butthurt. Since when did someone having an opposing view to you mean they were "butthurt". Kids these days...

Anyway, that link doesn't prove relationships are fan service. It proves the Garrus romance was a fan service. I agree with that, and I agreed with that before I saw that article. It doesn't speak for all romances as a whole. Your logic of "Well if one romance is fan service then they ALL are and the concept of it is PURELY to appease the fans" is bull****. Once again. 

I still believe Bioware want to put romances in their games and I still believe they see it as a completely valid way to engage a character within the story. I'm not buring my head in the sand pal. 

Thanks for the insightful chat! 

Modifié par HealthyGiraffe, 24 avril 2011 - 07:37 .

[Ryzaki]

HealthyGiraffe wrote...

Lolwut? 

I'm not butthurt. Since when did someone having an opposing view to you mean they were "butthurt". Kids these days...

There's a difference in having an opposing view and calling it bullsh*t because you don't agree with it. (Despite the fact that you're wrong but let's just leave that alone).

Calling someone a kid isn't a way to disprove being butthurt either. 

Anyway, that link doesn't prove relationships are fan service. It proves Garrus was a fan service. I agree with that, and I agreed with that before I saw that article.

The relationships are fanservice. They were always put in to appeal to the fans. The difference with Garrus and Tali is that the devs didn't expect them to be fanservice material. That is all. 

I still believe Bioware want to put romances in their games and I still believe they see it as a completely valid way to engage a character within the story. I'm not buring my head in the sand pal. 

Thanks for the insightful chat! 

It is. Doesn't make it any less fanservice. But go ahead and shove that head in the sand. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 24 avril 2011 - 07:40 .

[Vormaerin]

You'd have to go back to some of the other games to get quotes from Gaider and others that make it clear that all the romances are in because they are so popular, not because they are the best use of story space in the devs' eyes. But they's be crucified at this point if they tried releasing a romance free RPG...

[HealthyGiraffe]

Ryzaki wrote...

HealthyGiraffe wrote...

Lolwut? 

I'm not butthurt. Since when did someone having an opposing view to you mean they were "butthurt". Kids these days...

There's a difference in having an opposing view and calling it bullsh*t because you don't agree with it. (Despite the fact that you're wrong but let's just leave that alone).

Calling someone a kid isn't a way to disprove being butthurt either. 

Anyway, that link doesn't prove relationships are fan service. It proves Garrus was a fan service. I agree with that, and I agreed with that before I saw that article.

The relationships are fanservice. They were always put in to appeal to the fans. The difference with Garrus and Tali is that the devs didn't expect them to be fanservice material. That is all. 

I still believe Bioware want to put romances in their games and I still believe they see it as a completely valid way to engage a character within the story. I'm not buring my head in the sand pal. 

Thanks for the insightful chat! 

It is. Doesn't make it any less fanservice. But go ahead and shove that head in the sand. 

Mind telling me how they are fanservice?

They are fanservice. They are fanservice. They are fanservice. 

If you say that ten more times I might believe it! 

You are one of those people that believes everything is fan service.

Bioware including a fast paced action gameplay mechanic is fan service too then? Right? Because they put it in the hope that people will enjoy it? And Coldplay including a well written and catchy chorus is fan service because they put it in because they want fans to enjoy it, right? 

With this logic, I can argue everything under the umbrella of entertainment is fan service. 

[Maugrim]

Vormaerin wrote...

You'd have to go back to some of the other games to get quotes from Gaider and others that make it clear that all the romances are in because they are so popular, not because they are the best use of story space in the devs' eyes. But they's be crucified at this point if they tried releasing a romance free RPG...

It's really part of their schtick at this point and one of the things that helps define and set Bioware apart.    If it was absolutely integral to the story that their not be romances I have no doubt that Bioware would not have them.  I severely doubt however that Bioware would ever want to tell a story where that must be the case.  And as for people who don't want romances at all I offer these words of caution.  Though it is no gurantee all of Bioware's most critically acclaimed games have had romances and removing them, while seemingly non vital, might bring a lovely house of cards tumbling down.

Or not. Whatever.

[Inquisitor Recon]

Wait, I thought the romances were a "major feature" of the game that gays were being left out of by the fact the Normandy doesn't have a quota for gays or bisexuals. Now it's fanservice? Make up your mind.

You can try to RP a gay Shepard all you want but why do you think all of the NPCs should fit your tastes? It's absurd.

[didymos1120]

Awakening is the only thing approaching a full game that I can recall where they didn't include romance in, well, basically forever.