912 réponses à ce sujet

[didymos1120]

ReconTeam wrote...

Wait, I thought the romances were a "major feature" of the game that gays were being left out of by the fact the Normandy doesn't have a quota for gays or bisexuals. Now it's fanservice? Make up your mind.

The two are not mutually exclusive concepts.

[Ryzaki]

Mind telling me how they are fanservice?

They are fanservice. They are fanservice. They are fanservice.

If you say that ten more times I might believe it!

You are one of those people that believes everything is fan service.

Bioware including a fast paced action gameplay mechanic is fan service too then? Right? Because they put it in the hope that people will enjoy it? And Coldplay including a well written and catchy chorus is fan service because they put it in because they want fans to enjoy it, right?

With this logic, I can argue everything under the umbrella of entertainment is fan service.

Alrighty then let's begin. 

The Asari - were supposed to be a throwback to the old (edit: earlier than the 60s apparently) "space babes." A race of space bisexual female (looking) humanoids. Onlydifferent is they're blue with tentacle heads. 

What's not fanservice? Oh yes they're a race of intelligent aliens, with thoughts, feelings and ideas. That doesn't stop them (or their concept) from having fanservice elements in them. 

Now the romances - 

Liara - She goes under the Asari. Discount lesbian, hot, virgin, aching for Shepard the second she meets him. 

...This isn't fanservice...how? 

Ashley - I'm not sure about her (though if given a while I could figure something)

Kaidan - Same

Miranda - Oh god Miranda. Her outfit, her looks, the camera angle focusing on her ass, her love scene. She's a Ms. Fanservice. 

Jack - Not so much no. But her romance is to me pandering to the "broken women needs the help of a good man." trope. Shepard healed her with his love and all that other romantic crap that never works out in real life. 

Jacob - He is Miranda's male counterpart (just with a high failure rate due to FemShep's unwanted aggressiveness when dealing with him for many people). Camera focuses on his ass, abs and the like. 

Thane - If you were on the old boards you'd know Thane was fanservice for the ladies who played ME1 and wanted a male alien romance. (malien I believe he was called). 

Garrus - Already said. 

Tali - Goes under the same as Garrus. 

Conrad Verner being in every installment, running gangs. Hanar the Blasto Specter. There are *plenty* of examples of Fanservice in the ME series no matter how much you want to insist there aren't. 

And just putting it in for the fans to enjoy isn't fanservice. But when it has no bearing on the plot (like...you know romances.) are resource extensive (like you know...romances.) It tends to be fanservice. Game mechanics are...well game mechanics. They make the product better for everyone. They don't count as fanservice because those resources are there for that. 

This whole "FANSERVICE is BAD." attitude I will never understand. Fanservice doesn't stop a character from being well developed and a strong person. It just gives fans...fanservice. Big whoop. Not that this'll stop you from insisting that none of that is fanservice. 

Trying to argue "but that's in character!" or whatnot doesn't stop it from being fanservice. (Just makes it nice fanservice instead of crap that breaks the suspension of disbelief). 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 24 avril 2011 - 08:07 .

[Praetor Knight]

Well, cognitive dissonance seems to relate to too much of this discussion, but then again I can be wrong.

[didymos1120]

Ryzaki wrote...

The Asari - were supposed to be a throwback to the old (late 70s or was it early 80s?) space babes. (This is the devs words not mine).

60s and even earlier.  The phrase used in the artbook was "green alien girls", which refers to the Orion Slave Girls of Star Trek (talk about fanservice), but that sort of cheesecake was a big part of golden age pulp SF.

[Ryzaki]

didymos1120 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

The Asari - were supposed to be a throwback to the old (late 70s or was it early 80s?) space babes. (This is the devs words not mine).

60s and even earlier.  The phrase used in the artbook was "green alien girls", which refers to the Orion Slave Girls of Star Trek (talk about fanservice), but that sort of cheesecake was a big part of golden age pulp SF.

Ah thanks. 

[Inquisitor Recon]

didymos1120 wrote...
The two are not mutually exclusive concepts.

Regardless of if you consider it fan service or not the desires of those asking for gay romances don't deserve any special consideration over any other LI related "requests."

[HealthyGiraffe]

Ryzaki wrote...
The Asari - were supposed to be a throwback to the old (late 70s or was it early 80s?) space babes. (This is the devs words not mine). A race of space bisexual female (looking) humanoids. 

You are making the leap that the developers only included it to please the fanbase. Maybe they loved the idea?Maybe they loved the old sci-fi "space babes" and wanted to include it in their own game? 

Liara - She goes under the Asari. Discount lesbian, hot, virgin, aching for Shepard the second she meets him. 

...This isn't fanservice...how?  

It might be. It might not be. I dunno, you'd have to talk to someone about this specific one. 

Ashley - I'm not sure about her (though if given a while I could figure something)

I fail to see how including a character as flawed as Ash is, is "fan service". Ashley was probably the best written character in the game. 

Miranda - Oh god Miranda. Her outfit, her looks, the camera angle focusing on her ass, her love scene. She's a Ms. Fanservice. 

Once again, you are making this huge leap with no proof. I have a friend who draws "sexy ladies" (don't ask - he's weird) and he loves nothing more than drawing asses. Is that fan service? 

But yeah, maybe Miranda is. 

Jack - Not so much no. But her romance is to me pandering to the "broken women needs the help of a good man." trope. Shepard healed her with his love and all that other romantic crap that never works out in real life. 

Yeah, because all "tropes" are fan service. They aren't possibly tropes for another reason. Maybe the reason that it is heart warming and engaing? And heaven forbid Bioware wanted to include her!>!

WAIT! I FORGOT ! CHARACTER PROGRESSION AND CHANGE IS FAN SERVICE! 

snip

Hope you don't mind me cutting this out. I read it, it's all the same. You are making a leap that because something is in a game, it is therefore in it to please the fans. Like I said earlier, you can argue that anything is a trope with this angle. 

I think you are way too harsh on Bioware and you don't give them enough credit. They aren't soulless morons who include things because they hope the fans get a stiffy from it. Maybe the make decisions because they like the idea? You don't have to spin everything to suggest every romance ever is fan service.

Yes, some romances and some thingsi n the game are fan service. Many things aren't however. Many romances aren't. Many are in the game because bioware wanted them to be. Ashley is a perfect examp---

WAIT! ASHLEY IS REMOTELY ATTRACTIVE AND IS A BAD ASS GIRL! FAANANNNN SERVICEEEE!

Phew, I nearly caught myself there! 

[Vormaerin]

Who said they did? Do you just exist to defeat strawmen of your own devising? Anyway, towards the fanservice comment, In the Gamezone back in January, David Gaider made the comment "From what we get from the fans, there were a lot of people that the romances were more important to them than the story."

He was discussing DA:Origins, btw.

Modifié par Vormaerin, 24 avril 2011 - 08:12 .

[Ryzaki]

Ah the butthurt.

Ah well I'm sick of watching you stick your head in the sand.
You just said "oh maybe somethings are fanservice." 

So? What are all those things now bad then? Because ra forbid it be fanservice. 

And again fanservice doesn't preclude character development but of course you're too busy ranting to bother listening so I'll stop here. Arguing with someone who has no intention of doing anything other than saying "NO!" is pointless. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 24 avril 2011 - 08:14 .

[didymos1120]

ReconTeam wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...
The two are not mutually exclusive concepts.

Regardless of if you consider it fan service or not the desires of those asking for gay romances don't deserve any special consideration over any other LI related "requests."

What counts as "special consideration"?

[Vormaerin]

The reason they are fanservice is that the game would be completely unchanged if you deleted those dialogue elements or made them platonic (if they are mainly exposition).

They don't advance the plot or the story. They are just a kind of sidequest that gets inordinate attention because its extremely popular.

[didymos1120]

HealthyGiraffe wrote...

You are making the leap that the developers only included it to please the fanbase. Maybe they loved the idea?Maybe they loved the old sci-fi "space babes" and wanted to include it in their own game? 

Nope.  The ME1 artbook explicitly states that they had to be hot space babes so people would want to hook up with 'em. It also says they were created to capture the element of "fantasy fulfillment". That BTW, was the main reason for why the Drell ended up looking up the way they do (and that's in the ME2 artbook):  Thane was there specifically to be a romance.

[weazelwogger]

Wow. Really. Just wow. 25 pages in 24 hours -- most of it completely stupid. For pity sake someone should lock this thread out of mercy. Ryazki alone has apparently spent the entire day watching this thread and writing screed after tortured screed... 80+ and counting... on a Saturday.

Wow.

[Maugrim]

weazelwogger wrote...

Wow. Really. Just wow. 25 pages in 24 hours -- most of it completely stupid. For pity sake someone should lock this thread out of mercy. Ryazki alone has apparently spent the entire day watching this thread and writing screed after tortured screed... 80+ and counting... on a Saturday.

Wow.

Pfft you're easily impressed. Try over 170 pages in a little over 24 hours with an even greater stupidity concentration. 

And you counted?  If Ryzaki is sad for posting that much then you counting it...implications unpleasant....

Modifié par makenzieshepard, 24 avril 2011 - 08:38 .

[SalsaDMA]

adneate wrote...

Chewin3 wrote...
Battlestar Galactica had aliens, if I remember correctly

Not the reimagined series. Your lack of Sci-Fi cred disturbs me.

That depends entirely on how you define 'Alien' then.

The advanced cylons, especially the raiderships could certainly be classified as 'alien' as they are living entities that aren't human. Add the 'guardian angels' that follow Caprica 6 and Gaius Baltar as well as what Starbuck is eventually hinted at being, and you certainly have a fair amount of 'non-human living entities' (aka. aliens) in the series.

I never watched the firefly series, as I haven't yet been able to get hold of them in my national dvd-code(shops tell me they can't order them, and I'm leery of ordering dvd's from the web when I am region-restricted on the dvd-player). However, I did watch the Serinity movie, and while the reavers certainly are human in origin, the exact nature is not discovered untill later in the plot. Untill then they are practically considered by everyone to be aliens, and considered that they essentially are 'created' at a now non-human location they would still technically be classified as aliens.

'Alien' doesn't necesarily mean "spouting tentacles, claws, otherworldy-looking-appendages or other obviously non-human appearances". Klaatu (from the day the earth stood still) is obviously an alien entity, yet his (/her/its?) appearance is very human, and wouldn't be taken for being an alien if you just stumbled upon him down the street. You'd might think him an excentric at his behaviour, but that is about it.

[SalsaDMA]

jlb524 wrote...

Vormaerin wrote...

What's the point in defining Cerberus as a human supremacists and then have them spend all their time recruiting aliens for their most important mission?   And, seriously, they found an entire crew of a ship out of their loyalists and none of them have a problem with aliens?   Its a stretch....

Plus, they are giving these aliens access to their ship's technology (Garrus was calibrating something important and then Tali is down in Engineering playing around with the ship).

That makes a whole lot of sense....oh wait... 

What would make more sense would be to replace Garrus and Tali with human, Cerberus loyalists.

Cerberus has tons of "specialists".  Kai Lang seems to be one of them...he could have been on Shepard's team instead of Thane.

Kai Leng is TIM personall 'fetch boy'. No way he would leave himself without proper personal assets just to aid Shepard.

Also, do note that the crew of the Cerberus is in fact all human. It's only shepards team of operatives that includes aliens. some of the dossiers are because of the knowledge or skills they got (Okeer (knowledge), for example, or Thane (skills) ) while others are to ensure Shepards loyalty through giving him familiar faces around him (Garrus). Also note that some of the alien operatives you end up with is not because of Dossiers, but because of decisions Shepard makes, outside of TIMS sphere of influence.

Cerberus have a history of 'playing along' with aliens whenever they feel they need to, so this act from them shouldn't come as a surprise.

[SalsaDMA]

Eromenos wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

Eromenos wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

Eromenos wrote...

Wizz wrote...

*sigh*
Pacifien usually closes such topics. For a reason.

Yeah, and that reason would be to funnel overt gayness into the segregated free-speech zone just to placate the homophobes in this place.

Um, no.  It's because these threads turn into, well, this.

www.ign.com/blogs/next-gen-gamer/2010/02/04/mass-effect-2-bad-romance

Any thread over a topic that people fight over and call each other names over and flame one another - is a nightmare to moderate on public boards with site rules similiar to this one's.  They get locked.  As a mod on other boards, I've locked threads that devolve into this for a wide variety of topics, not just homosexuality.  Examples of topics that usually turn into flame wars are: homosexuality, abortion, the death penalty, racism - you get the point.  

"Content that is insulting to anyone based on gender, lifestyle,
religion, ethic group, race etc. is unacceptable and will be deleted
without warning. A person or persons found to repeatedly slander others
may be banned from these forums at the discretion of the staff."

BioWare does not even follow its own rules. They permit homophobic trolls to attack all threads that contest BioWare's cowardice towards queer visibility in their own products. They're basically letting flames act as their excuse to reinforce their own commitment to silence on this topic.

You can lay of the victim card, mate.

I'm seeing more straigthophobes in this thread than I am seeing homophobes.

[SalsaDMA]

Eromenos wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...

Loose/gain content? That's what you think it is about?

It's about massive retconning of characters. People aren't asking for 'more' content. They are asking for existing content to be changed to cater to their specific little fantasy. In this effect I actually would be loosing content, as characters rewritten were no longer the characters they used to be, but someone new. Not to mention the whole fact that this is the 3rd part of trilogy, and from a storytelling perspective it would be one hell of a mess to suddenly sweep as big a change to a character in under the rug as a change in sexual preference would be for the audience.

Oh, that dreaded "change"? Those 2 were already developed as bisexual. The same-sex attraction aspects were chopped off only to appease homophobic elements in the straight community. Any retcon associated with their sexuality was committed by BioWare itself. The original homophobic choice to exclude same-sex attraction from these characters was the real execution of depriving us content.

But please, do try harder to cast queer gamers as feeling overly entitled to "special privileges." The facts are that excessive straight-privileges (in our world and the ME-universe) are the ones that cry victim whenever they feel unable to grow fatter.

It would have helped you if you had done your research. Both voiceactors were just given the full scripts to record. Or do you think it is 'intentional' when Maleshepard refers to himself as a woman?

You're looking for implications that aren't there, and trying to pull the homophobic card at the same time just shows you as a frothing troll.

So yes, in your specific case you are actually feeling entitled to a speciel privelege. Namely by claiming one that never existed in the first place should have been there.

In all honesty, at first I wouldn't even had raised an eyebrow if BW, to cater to frothing 'straigthophobes' (if that is even a word, but it somehow suits the people in here that are so vehemently against straigth people in their games), had included a new LI option for that segment only. After all, if it didn't touch with the establishment of the old characters what would be the issue, right?

What a laugh. So you'd have to be "lowering yourself" if you can only choose among "less-than-perfect" selections, eh? What is it that makes them less-than-perfect to you? I guess all bi people must be scum? Seems like to you it's less about the person and more about their labeling. So it's permissible when they're all straight characters who coincidentally do nothing and know nothing about human M/M sexuality. Yes...anything to avoid knocking heterosexuality down from its pedestal. Poor victims.

Go be straight with a bisexual woman. Go be straight with a bisexual man. What? In any homophobic setting, the partner who identifies as straight still gets to retain more "cred." That is what you're so jealously trying to guard.

Que? What on earth are you blabbering about? You are reminding me more an more of the gay people that get offended when a straight person 'dare' to have a beer a in a known gaybar.

This isn't about non-gays accepting gays. This is about gays accepting non-gays.

[catabuca]

ReconTeam wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...
The two are not mutually exclusive concepts.

Regardless of if you consider it fan service or not the desires of those asking for gay romances don't deserve any special consideration over any other LI related "requests."

Ergo the desires of those asking for no s/s romances don't deserve any special consideration over any other LI related "requests".

[catabuca]

I, for one, freaking love fan service. How awesome is it that a company we love listens to what we like about their games? They listen, and they try to give us a little bit more of what we like, partly as a thank you for being loyal fans, partly from the pragmatic (some may say cynical) stand point of ensuring that continued loyalty and future sales. BW get what they want (exposure, fans, money) and we get what we want (a few of the little things we love).

Including content that you know your fans will love is not a negative in any way shape or form. Should they only include content they know we won't like? What odd logic. They include these "fan service-y" elements and make every attempt to integrate them into the story world. Superfluous they are not.

Let's look at DA2: Had Merrill and Fenris only been available as romance options for straight-identifying PCs, their romances would have played out in exactly the same way. Merrill would have fawned over Hawke, Fenris would have angsted about his past. Allowing gay or bisexual-identifying PCs to also pursue those romances doesn't mean the characterisation of Merrill or Fenris is all of a sudden taken away or made lesser. Regardless of whether it is fan service or not. It's simply content. Glorious, equal, beautiful, open-to-all content.

[Costin_Razvan]

How do you exactly see male/male romance going into ME3?

Enabling Garrus/Thane/Jacob/Kaidan as options? I had no issue with romancing Zevran as male in Dragon Age:O, nor did I have an issue with the ability to romance Anders/Fenris in DA2 ( even though I didn't....well except for some tumbles with Zevran before I went with Morrigan ).

But I would have a BIG issue if they turned Garrus/Thane/Jacob and/or Kaidan into bisexual characters after these guys where straight for 1/2 games, and you can bet your ass that a lot of people would have an issue with it as well.

So what's left then? James Sanders being the only gay/bi one...I could live with that but I suppose a lot of gay people who wouldn't like him being the only option would get very pissed at Bioware.

So...uh,,,whatever Bioware does will ****** some people off, though I figure James Sanders being the only option would be the best compromise.

[SalsaDMA]

Seeing Biowares love to kill off characters in the opening of their games, I wouldn't even count too much on Sanders, tbh. I smell a redshirt whenever they talk about him. Just like the girl from awakenings was.

[Antivenger]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

How do you exactly see male/male romance going into ME3?

Enabling Garrus/Thane/Jacob/Kaidan as options? I had no issue with romancing Zevran as male in Dragon Age:O, nor did I have an issue with the ability to romance Anders/Fenris in DA2 ( even though I didn't....well except for some tumbles with Zevran before I went with Morrigan ).

But I would have a BIG issue if they turned Garrus/Thane/Jacob and/or Kaidan into bisexual characters after these guys where straight for 1/2 games, and you can bet your ass that a lot of people would have an issue with it as well.

So what's left then? James Sanders being the only gay/bi one...I could live with that but I suppose a lot of gay people who wouldn't like him being the only option would get very pissed at Bioware.

So...uh,,,whatever Bioware does will ****** some people off, though I figure James Sanders being the only option would be the best compromise.

I dunno, Kaidan might be plausible. ME1 was still a testing phase for the romances and even then it was still buggy (I do not want either Liara nor Kaidan as my LI please make her stop coming to my room )

The only people who have expressed their sexuality is Tali and probably Thane. Tali says "too bad you're a girl" while Thane had a wife and shows creepy interest in Fem!Shep only.

Modifié par Antivenger, 24 avril 2011 - 11:23 .

[catabuca]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

So...uh,,,whatever Bioware does will ****** some people off, though I figure James Sanders being the only option would be the best compromise.

You're right, no matter what BW does there will be a section of the community who are unhappy.

I can't speak for everyone, but there appears to be a trend that suggests most people would be overjoyed with the addition of just one m/m romance to the game. Whether that came in the form of a previous character or a new one.

The previous characters have their fans, of course they do. I know I personally would love it if Shep were able to pursue Kaidan in ME3. Why? I like his character, and in lieu of any accessible m/m content in the first 2 games I created a backstory and reasoning in my head as to why they didn't pursue anything in the game. There was no one else really for Shep to fancy, to find attractive, since he's gay and just doesn't find Ash or Liara sexy or attractive in anything other than a platonic way. So over the course of 2 games, Kaidan has been the one Shep has been thinking about. So for me, it would suit my own experience of the trilogy just perfectly to be able to continue that process to completion.

That said, that isn't something I would demand, nor is it something I would scream and shout about if I didn't get it. It would be nice, is all.

And yes, if there was just one bisexual male LI in ME3, chances are there would be plenty of bisexual and gay-identifying Sheps who wouldn't find him attractive, and so they would be alone yet again. That's why I favour giving every player a choice of LI, not just straight-identifying ones. That doesn't mean all LIs have to be bisexual, but it makes things much fairer, and heck much more enjoyable, if everyone gets a choice.

[ElitePinecone]

There are presumably still unannounced characters lurking out there.

I also back Kaidan as a possible option; he was intended to be bisexual for the original Mass Effect and I can see him being that way for ME3, just in terms of character development.

Edit: Pressed enter too early ;__; 

Modifié par ElitePinecone, 24 avril 2011 - 11:34 .