912 réponses à ce sujet

[catabuca]

SalsaDMA wrote...

I'm sorry. I never heard about a switch getting thrown in people that suddenly changes who they are.

And as far as 'getting out of the closet', that happens most commonly in the young years of people. actively Expecting rare occurences to happen in a story, one that isn't even hinted at in any way prior in the story is not realistic, no. Nor is it interesting.

In fact, I find such things as interesting in a story as deux ex machinas. From out of the blue, to make a random change, we made this thing happen.

Sorry, that's not good storytelling.

Way to attempt to erase the experiences of a whole swathe of the LGBTQ community.

Unless you have struggled with coming to terms with a non-heteronormative or non-gendernormative identity, I don't think you can accurately comment in terms of absolutes as to what that process is like.

There is no 'switch', you're quite right. There is, however, often a 'realisation'. That 'realisation' can happen at various times in people's lives, and it is often an ongoing process. I, for one, didn't begin to truly tackle that realisation as regards my own gender identity until I reached my 30s. Does that invalidate my experiences? Make them less realistic? Not at all.

I've outlined previously how I believe a progression and acceptence of s/s feelings would work just brilliantly in the final part of the trilogy, while expanding on character, adding depth, and creating a truly organic and beautiful arc to a friendship that has been built upon in the previous games. It's a fantastic opportunity for character development, and not a scary spectre of butchering a person's integrity. I offer my own personal example from above as testament to that.

[HealthyGiraffe]

Eromenos wrote...

HealthyGiraffe wrote...

Vormaerin wrote...

No, I simply disagree with you that they are more likely to be liberals, except as an accident of the current political culture. Its NOT true of the historical record. Nor is it true that its legal for gays to serve in the US Armed services in the recent past. If i walked up and said "Hi, I'm a gay man and I want to enlist", I'd be told NO." I would only be allowed to serve if I didn't admit to being gay.

Gay men have a long history of military service in the historical record. Just not in the recent history of the US.

You are being a typical American here. I'm not talking about America. America is not the centre of the universe. And if you wait a few months, you would be able to say "hi I'm a gay man and I want to enlist" in the USA anyway. 

Anyway, there is no point explaining this and I honestly don't care what you believe about it. You've never experienced it. Next time you meet someone who has been in combat, ask them how many gay men they meet out there. Because I fought with hundreds of French, British, German, Spanish and Australian men and women (who were all incredibly accepting and open about their sexuality) and I didn't meet any gay people in combat. Not one. Maybe it's just a coincidence. A coincidence that went on for five years. In two seperate wars. With people from several varying cultures. Yeah. Probably. There is no under-lying reason why this happened. 

Of course it is because of our political/social environment. I'd argue that EVERYTHING has something to do with that, and I have conceeded that maybe in the Mass Effect universe - this doens't exist. It still doesn't change the fact that gay men are 10% of the population and it still doesn't change the fact that TODAY, gay men are relatively unheard of in combat roles. 

Meeting just as many gay men in your travels as straight men, in any universe involving humans, would be a complete rarity and would break immersion for me. Gay people are rare. If I had 5 gay squad mates in ME3 and 5 straight squad mates, I'd think it was pandering, "EQUALITY FOR THE SAKE OF EQUALITY!"  nonsense because that would never happen and my immersion would be ruined. I'd get the impression that Bioware were trying to be p-c and trying to pander to the fan base instead of actually creating their artistic vision of the universe - especially considering the fact that ME1 and ME2 had no gay members. Plain and simple. And I am entitled to express this on forum. 

And...how exactly did you confirm that all of these men on the frontlines were non-gay? You rifled through their belongings? Interrogated them about their personal lives? Arched your back before every single new shock-trooper you didn't recognize and then weighed their reactions against teh gheyz you knew from "back home?"

Do please explain the depths of your litmus tests.

To be frank, your lofty proprietary attitudes are the reason why so few queer soldiers would want to be forthcoming around you in a homophobic environment. Chances are your buddies may have known some, or were queer themselves, yet probably thought less of you than you were aware of. Even in the civilian sector where corporations have anti-homophobia policies, the queer employees are guarded about expressing their own lives via pictures on office walls or small-talk with co-workers. Straight employees are never challenged for flaunting themselves, hmmm.

Have a look at Marine Staff Sergeant Eric Alva. www.hrcbackstory.org/2010/06/vet-eric-alva-responds-to-az-mayor-who-says-limp-wristed-cant-serve-country/ I have no idea whether his rank made him a front-line soldier in combat. What I do know is that by the time this country was embroiled in Iraq (and still...so much for "Mission Accomplished") Alva had been rated more than enough for combat and become the first Marine, if not the first American, to suffer a major injury via getting his leg blown off by a landmine. He's also 5'1". Do please try and reiterate your stance that queer guys can't hack it as fighters.

Your statements that queer men are nonexistent in combat has nothing to do with "our shortcomings." It has everything to do with homophobic establishments continually finding excuses to pursue witch-hunts. You're so adamant about never entertaining the thought of "allowing" queers to be out there usurping some holy right reserved for str8 men. You actually have your work cut out.

To be breif:

Shut the **** up. I don't care about your internet fights. If you want a fight, go find someone to fight in real life. You know nothing about me and you know nothing about the work I've done. 

If you think the 10% ratio is exactly the same in combat roles in the military as it is in a dance academy then you can think that. If you are right, it's true. If I am right, it's not true. Not a whole lot changes.

Thanks. Don't feel the need to reply to this, there's not a ghost of a chance I'll read it. Still, you may want to ****** your point a little further onto the message board. Last I heard, it counts for a hell of a lot. 

Modifié par HealthyGiraffe, 24 avril 2011 - 02:22 .

[Centauri2002]

Just to add another point to the debate...

Does everyone simply believe in love at first sight? Is there no room for anything else in a progression of a relationship? Surely it would be believable for squadmates working together to form a strong bond and for that bond to eventually blossom into a romantic attraction?

Not every attraction begins as quickly as, say, Liara's. That was bordering on a little unrealistic anyway.

Modifié par centauri2002, 24 avril 2011 - 02:22 .

[SalsaDMA]

Saeran wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...

Bah... I need to quote people if my responses are to make meaning

Tali and Garrus I consider shoddy writing, yes, but at least Garrus was discreetly done. Ie. He never even approached my female shepard in a way I actually noticed it, so I could actually ignore that part.

Tali, however, made me cringe my toes when she suddenly 'confronted' my Shepard that was dating with Miranda. Appearantly being a friend to Tali meant I was 'with' her. Considering I hadn't acted differently towards her than in ME1 I did find it a stupid turn of events that my Shepard had to suddenly deal with a Tali that was another person than in ME1.

And yet I presume you still enjoy the game and to this day it hasn't degraded anything. What would the difference be if they reverted the character back to their original design, i.e Kaidan bisexual, but he never mentions it unless you pursue it. I can't see much difference there. As I say though, I don't care if it's Kaidan or James Sanders or the Illusive Man (which would demand some extremely shoddy writing). I would just enjoy the game a whole lot more with that 1 little option.

EDIT: Oh and quoting is fine, pyramids of quotes start getting extremely long however. :3

That gave me a good laugh there. The Illusive Man...

Thanks for that

I disagree though, with the omission of mentioning something means it is automatically included. It's extremely poor storytelling to go that route, and ultimately just leads the reader/viewer at a state where they no longer bother paying attention to the characters, as they know any random thing could happen at any point anyway.

[Eromenos]

SalsaDMA wrote...

Eromenos wrote...

I'm sure you would. Your victim card grows from entitlement provoked by even the tiniest of challenges against unworthy heterosexual exclusivity.

No, I'm just tired of people claiming the victim card when all they really want is exclusivity for themselves.

A certain individual isn't interested in you? tough. That's how life goes. I don't **** about meeting a gorgous girl and then finding out she isn't interested in guys. Most of the gay-proponents in this thread, however, are doing exactly this about characters they find attractive.

Try again. If we lived in the ME-universe, then as a straight person you are freer to "move on to the next" if a female shoots you down. For a gay male, there is nothing at all. IRL we can draw many parallels to that model depending on where we are and who we're around. Oftentimes this even extends to non-sexual/non-romantic interactions. It is "safe" for straight people to exhibit their likes without being met by condemnation or violence. Even encouraged. All elements of RL and ME are arrayed to suit your kind. Which leads me to the next issue...

It's like the gays that tells straigths in gaybars: "No straigths allowed". It's ironic and sad at the same time how the claims of being openminded only counts as far as people are agreeing with them. If you don't agree, you are called a homophobe. It's a similar attitude/behaviour used by ethnic minorities all the time, and equally distatefull. Ie. disagree with a guy from an ethnic minority, and there's a fair chance he'll pull the "You're just a racist" card. It happens every day, regardless of what people say or do.

Count the number of "straight establishments" and then count the number of "queer establishments." There's a reason why gay ghettos exist. Mainstream culture hates us. Therefore, it is not our burden to make straight people welcome in environments when the priority is to make a marginalized people feel comfortable as breathing individuals. I wouldn't say those places do queer visibility any favors, but then again that isn't the goal for those establishments who opt to exclude.

I need an example of a disagreement with non-white people you alluded to.

As long as you are in disagreement with the self-entitled 'victims' they will happily claim the "you are just <insert random degatory phrase>" card.

Read through the thread. You'll quickly notice that even people that openly suggest new companions that are targeted at the vocal gay-segment in this thread get slammed together in the 'homophobic' group just because they disagree with turning specific established characters into Bi's.

Are you a victim? Are you unable to preserve your MShepard's "straightness" if he continued to love BisexualAshley? Would he not still be in love with Ashley, and she for him? How about vice-versa between FShepard and BisexualKaidan? Or would Kaidan and Ashley suddenly be covered in cooties that make them more apt to cheat on you because bisexuals are just known to screw everything? Just like the way BioWare and Katy Perry tend to characterize queer women, yeah?

And, please. Kaidn and Ashley were always bi.

That Gaider person in DA has expressed refusal to write "purely gay" LIs because he feels there is no market or appeal behind such. That shows you his low opinion of us as gamers in general.

But I think of it this way-

Do only queer people romance queer LIs?
No.

Do only male gamers play as male protagonists?
No.

Is it worthy to go the way the wind is blowing, but only after it becomes safe to do so?
No.

BioWare can't be trusted to handle segregated NPC sexualities. As I said before, such attempts come out with 99% characters pasted with straightness and the remainder "allowed" to be bisexual in ways that challenge homophobic entitlements as little as possible.

Modifié par Eromenos, 24 avril 2011 - 02:38 .

[SalsaDMA]

centauri2002 wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...

catabuca wrote...

@SalsaDMA -- why do you keep trying to paint people in here as playing a victim card? Do you feel like a victim?

Yes yes. I feel like a victim. A victim of incredibly poor taste of words used by people that can't carry a debate without hurling insinuations or veiled insults.

When people start making references that disagreeing with their opinion automatically should make you feel they as a person are a lesser being, then it's hard not to feel like a victim of their incredible silly insinuations and lack of grasp of reality and the ability to accept other peoples opinions without having to try and paint anyone disagreeing with them as being biggots.

does that answer your question freud?

Which is exactly what you just did with catabuca. <_<

I figured it would be a suitable way to respond

[Biotic_Warlock]

*sigh* i think this thread has gone on long enough *flirts with report button*

[Centauri2002]

SalsaDMA wrote...

I figured it would be a suitable way to respond

I can understand the use of irony but if you're acting in the manner you're pointing out is wrong, it weakens your point. Just sayin'. 

[Eromenos]

HealthyGiraffe wrote...

Eromenos wrote...

HealthyGiraffe wrote...

Vormaerin wrote...

No, I simply disagree with you that they are more likely to be liberals, except as an accident of the current political culture. Its NOT true of the historical record. Nor is it true that its legal for gays to serve in the US Armed services in the recent past. If i walked up and said "Hi, I'm a gay man and I want to enlist", I'd be told NO." I would only be allowed to serve if I didn't admit to being gay.

Gay men have a long history of military service in the historical record. Just not in the recent history of the US.

You are being a typical American here. I'm not talking about America. America is not the centre of the universe. And if you wait a few months, you would be able to say "hi I'm a gay man and I want to enlist" in the USA anyway. 

Anyway, there is no point explaining this and I honestly don't care what you believe about it. You've never experienced it. Next time you meet someone who has been in combat, ask them how many gay men they meet out there. Because I fought with hundreds of French, British, German, Spanish and Australian men and women (who were all incredibly accepting and open about their sexuality) and I didn't meet any gay people in combat. Not one. Maybe it's just a coincidence. A coincidence that went on for five years. In two seperate wars. With people from several varying cultures. Yeah. Probably. There is no under-lying reason why this happened. 

Of course it is because of our political/social environment. I'd argue that EVERYTHING has something to do with that, and I have conceeded that maybe in the Mass Effect universe - this doens't exist. It still doesn't change the fact that gay men are 10% of the population and it still doesn't change the fact that TODAY, gay men are relatively unheard of in combat roles. 

Meeting just as many gay men in your travels as straight men, in any universe involving humans, would be a complete rarity and would break immersion for me. Gay people are rare. If I had 5 gay squad mates in ME3 and 5 straight squad mates, I'd think it was pandering, "EQUALITY FOR THE SAKE OF EQUALITY!"  nonsense because that would never happen and my immersion would be ruined. I'd get the impression that Bioware were trying to be p-c and trying to pander to the fan base instead of actually creating their artistic vision of the universe - especially considering the fact that ME1 and ME2 had no gay members. Plain and simple. And I am entitled to express this on forum. 

And...how exactly did you confirm that all of these men on the frontlines were non-gay? You rifled through their belongings? Interrogated them about their personal lives? Arched your back before every single new shock-trooper you didn't recognize and then weighed their reactions against teh gheyz you knew from "back home?"

Do please explain the depths of your litmus tests.

To be frank, your lofty proprietary attitudes are the reason why so few queer soldiers would want to be forthcoming around you in a homophobic environment. Chances are your buddies may have known some, or were queer themselves, yet probably thought less of you than you were aware of. Even in the civilian sector where corporations have anti-homophobia policies, the queer employees are guarded about expressing their own lives via pictures on office walls or small-talk with co-workers. Straight employees are never challenged for flaunting themselves, hmmm.

Have a look at Marine Staff Sergeant Eric Alva. www.hrcbackstory.org/2010/06/vet-eric-alva-responds-to-az-mayor-who-says-limp-wristed-cant-serve-country/ I have no idea whether his rank made him a front-line soldier in combat. What I do know is that by the time this country was embroiled in Iraq (and still...so much for "Mission Accomplished") Alva had been rated more than enough for combat and become the first Marine, if not the first American, to suffer a major injury via getting his leg blown off by a landmine. He's also 5'1". Do please try and reiterate your stance that queer guys can't hack it as fighters.

Your statements that queer men are nonexistent in combat has nothing to do with "our shortcomings." It has everything to do with homophobic establishments continually finding excuses to pursue witch-hunts. You're so adamant about never entertaining the thought of "allowing" queers to be out there usurping some holy right reserved for str8 men. You actually have your work cut out.

To be breif:

Shut the **** up. I don't care about your internet fights. If you want a fight, go find someone to fight in real life. You know nothing about me and you know nothing about the work I've done. 

If you think the 10% ratio is exactly the same in combat roles in the military as it is in a dance academy then you can think that. If you are right, it's true. If I am right, it's not true. Not a whole lot changes.

Thanks. Don't feel the need to reply to this, there's not a ghost of a chance I'll read it. Still, you may want to ****** your point a little further onto the message board. Last I heard, it counts for a hell of a lot. 

*finger-tap*

Is that all from you?

*points upward*

Each and every one of my points is still waiting to be addressed.

[SalsaDMA]

Eromenos: If you >lived< in the ME universe, you wouldn't be Sheaprd, and you wouldn't be mingling with the people he mingles with.

There's no telling wether or not you would be able to find sexual partners easily or not, as the concept of the story is 'fighting ancient machines from dark space trying to eradicate the known galaxy', not 'where's the local same sex club to hang out in?'.

If we instead limit our sphere of experience to the specific story within the game, then we have a case of a certain segment of people appearantly outright demanding that there be specific catered content for them, to suit their fantasies.

Tell me.

Should religious people also demand that their specific religion be 'honored' in the game, despite it not being the plot of the story?

Or how about people from certain Ethnic groups. Should they too demand that at least half of the characters be of their same ethniticity? (which would be kinda hard given how many different ethnic groups there actually are).

Or how about even groups that adhere to different philosophies?

I can't see how you can claim one segment be given a differentiated treatment if others shouldn't.

The story is written a certain way. We may agree with it, or disagree with it. I certainly disagree with a fair amount of their decisions plotwise, but I don't start claming people disagreeing with me are naturally 'phobic' towards whatever segment I may or may not belong to like you have done in your posts.

As for your "straigth people hate us gays'... I can only say that you are showing your only problem right there. You are acting with that paragraph like any selfrightous douche from any random segment trying to justify being an ass towards anyone they want. Act like an ass towards people without even bothering to finding out if you need to be, and they will surely respond int he same way towards you. If anything, you are merely furthering your issues with 'getting accepted' by not 'accepting' other people and their right to have an opinion yourself.

So cut the crap with claiming everyone hates you because of being part of a segment when you haven't met everyone. You WILL eventually make everyone hate you specifically if you keep claiming they should hate you, though. But it's nothing to do with what segment you happen to belong to, but how you behave towards others.

And no, Kaidan and Ashley are only depicted as Straigths. If they were depicted as Bi, there would have been clues in the game to show us this. There are none. There are plenty of evidence of them being interested in opposite sex involvments, however.

[catabuca]

SalsaDMA wrote...

And no, Kaidan and Ashley are only depicted as Straigths. If they were depicted as Bi, there would have been clues in the game to show us this. There are none. There are plenty of evidence of them being interested in opposite sex involvments, however.

No clues? *laughs*

Okay. Sure.

[SalsaDMA]

Nyoka wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...

I'm sorry. I never heard about a switch getting thrown in people that suddenly changes who they are.

Don't worry, it's okay.

And as far as 'getting out of the closet', that happens most commonly in the young years of people.

Ricky Martin got out when he was 38 years old. And he said he wish he would have done it 10 years before (when he was 28, not precisely "young"). Before that, he had had multiple girlfriends. Wanda Sykes was married to a guy, then she came out. What is "most common" doesn't matter, it's still realistic because it happens to real people.

James Randi came out of the closet in 2010. He was 82 years old. "For the first twenty years of my life, I had to live in the shadows...Before publishing this statement, I chose to privately notify a number of my closest friends and colleagues — none of whom, I’m sure, have been at all surprised at this “coming out.”

No switch.

actively Expecting rare occurences to happen in a story, one that isn't even hinted at in any way prior in the story is not realistic, no.

Of course it is, a lot of times a person coming out is a big surprise for the family, friends and coworkers. A very common "Did you hear?" topic of conversation.

In fact, I find such things as interesting in a story as deux ex machinas. From out of the blue, to make a random change, we made this thing happen.

You could say the same about every other things that further develops a character. Ah, so out of the blue, the geth are not inherently evil, just timid. Ah, out of the blue, Rick points his gun to Renault even when five minutes ago they made a deal. Ah, so Michael Corleone suddenly becomes a criminal, in contradiction with everything we know about him: all-american, enlistened volunteer, war hero, out of the family business. I didn't know there was a switch for that!

That you find the very idea of coming out "random" and a sign of poor character development (a priori, even before seeing a concrete implementation) is telling.

Regardless, it is not a common occurence. It may be common for people in the 'community' of that segment, but that would almost go without saying. For people outside of the 'community' it would be a fairly rare occurence to 'witness', if ever occuring.

Geth were never really explored lorewise in ME1. They were just explained as robots the quarians created that revolted. No real background or lore where given about them, aside that we fought them. Batarians were similar empty in lore, although the novels at least tried making up for that.

The characters in ME, however, are 'up in your face' most of the time, and you get to know them well. There's a far cry of difference in fleshing out the lacking Geth lore and in making a personality changing flip on a well established character.

[Biotic_Warlock]

catabuca wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...

And no, Kaidan and Ashley are only depicted as Straigths. If they were depicted as Bi, there would have been clues in the game to show us this. There are none. There are plenty of evidence of them being interested in opposite sex involvments, however.

No clues? *laughs*

Okay. Sure.

Kaidan: *thinking whilst telling shep life story* Shepard looks so... hot standing there...

Salsa... could you have not seen the looks he gives male shep? =)

Modifié par Biotic_Warlock, 24 avril 2011 - 02:58 .

[catabuca]

SalsaDMA wrote...


Regardless, it is not a common occurence. It may be common for people in the 'community' of that segment, but that would almost go without saying. For people outside of the 'community' it would be a fairly rare occurence to 'witness', if ever occuring.

Geth were never really explored lorewise in ME1. They were just explained as robots the quarians created that revolted. No real background or lore where given about them, aside that we fought them. Batarians were similar empty in lore, although the novels at least tried making up for that.

The characters in ME, however, are 'up in your face' most of the time, and you get to know them well. There's a far cry of difference in fleshing out the lacking Geth lore and in making a personality changing flip on a well established character.

I answered your comments on this subject at the top of the page. You've yet to engage with them.

[KingDan97]

Michoss wrote...

Yeah, they handled it reeeeaaally well with Anders telling you about his boyfriend and hitting on you every time you select 'paragon' option.

I managed to go the entire game as a malehawke without being hit on once by Anders. Ever. I wasn't always rude of anti-mage either I just picked the joking option once at the beginning and he left me alone for the entire game.

[Centauri2002]

Of course, coming out in the Mass Effect timeline is going to be very different from coming out today, if there's even a need for it at all. Heterosexuals don't have to announce their preference nowadays because it's assumed most people are straight and is fully accepted. One hopes that a similar kind of acceptance will be present a hundred or so years in the future and there won't be a need to announce who you like to sleep with in your private time. If it's not assumed, you won't have to correct someone on it, right?

Modifié par centauri2002, 24 avril 2011 - 03:29 .

[Eromenos]

SalsaDMA wrote...

Eromenos: If you >lived< in the ME universe, you wouldn't be Sheaprd, and you wouldn't be mingling with the people he mingles with.

And you? Spell it out. Because you're str8, you would "get to be Shepard?" Yes, it doesn't surprise me that you'd look for any method to play up to rules that BioWare established to benefit only your kind.

There's no telling wether or not you would be able to find sexual partners easily or not, as the concept of the story is 'fighting ancient machines from dark space trying to eradicate the known galaxy', not 'where's the local same sex club to hang out in?'.

Translation- "Str8 folks know how to battle teh killer-robots to save galaxy. Gheyz, stick to wrestling in sex-clubz."

If we instead limit our sphere of experience to the specific story within the game, then we have a case of a certain segment of people appearantly outright demanding that there be specific catered content for them, to suit their fantasies.

Dr. Lawson, Justicar Samara, Kelly the Human Screensaver, and Morinth of Basic Instinct were all rendered into str8 male fantasies. Tali, Gianna, and Shiala also were compelled by BioWare to later succumb to fratboy fantasies. And judging by Sgt. Williams' new look....

Tell me.

Should religious people also demand that their specific religion be 'honored' in the game, despite it not being the plot of the story?

Or how about people from certain Ethnic groups. Should they too demand that at least half of the characters be of their same ethniticity? (which would be kinda hard given how many different ethnic groups there actually are).

Or how about even groups that adhere to different philosophies?

I can't see how you can claim one segment be given a differentiated treatment if others shouldn't.

Simple. Your attitude has been that queers are unworthy of being catered to. My attitude has been that homophobes are unworthy of being catered to. I'm not preaching "fairness"  or "justice." This is about self-interest. Mine is no less intense than yours is. I'm not here feigning peace or cooperation between adversaries. The only straight people I'm grateful to are the ones who recognize that my inclusion means their stature would be diminished, yet they welcome the possibility of being on closer footing with someone like me (and vice-versa).

More often, I run into non-victims who claim victimhood when being confronted by queerness that does threaten their establishments, institutions, beliefs, power-structures, and values, and in spades. Thus, I have no pity for people who deny their invisible advantages.

If organized-religious people want to advocate for their inclusion in ME, they should do it up. We'll see how far they get. Inevitably, they'll run afoul of pro-queer folks who don't mind backhanding those homophobic religious spiels. But I have no problem with the ones who don't try limiting us in comparison to heterosexual depictions. The same goes for philosophies.

Non-white people can already make their Shepards non-white, and that goes a long way.

The story is written a certain way. We may agree with it, or disagree with it. I certainly disagree with a fair amount of their decisions plotwise, but I don't start claming people disagreeing with me are naturally 'phobic' towards whatever segment I may or may not belong to like you have done in your posts.

As for your "straigth people hate us gays'... I can only say that you are showing your only problem right there. You are acting with that paragraph like any selfrightous douche from any random segment trying to justify being an ass towards anyone they want. Act like an ass towards people without even bothering to finding out if you need to be, and they will surely respond int he same way towards you. If anything, you are merely furthering your issues with 'getting accepted' by not 'accepting' other people and their right to have an opinion yourself.

Translation- "The ****** wasn't nice to me. I was being nice to him by telling him to wait his turn. He's ruining everything!"

I shouldn't be surprised that you completely glossed over the parts where I've mentioned the types of straight people who have a better eye for the big picture than you do.

So cut the crap with claiming everyone hates you because of being part of a segment when you haven't met everyone. You WILL eventually make everyone hate you specifically if you keep claiming they should hate you, though. But it's nothing to do with what segment you happen to belong to, but how you behave towards others.

And no, Kaidan and Ashley are only depicted as Straigths. If they were depicted as Bi, there would have been clues in the game to show us this. There are none. There are plenty of evidence of them being interested in opposite sex involvments, however.

Did I ever act like I was here to make friends?

Please. "I will defend Bastila's straightness forever!" That was old even back then. As for Kaidan and Ashley, there are more demonstrations that these 2 are bisexual, much more than any that portray them as being solely str8. The majority of our time spent with them is via "universally appealing" interactions suited for American-raised females and males (and possibly trans people) that were always meant to maintain sexual tension with Shepard. Budget and time constraints = Kaidan and Ashley constantly being "on" for Shepard of any sex.

Modifié par Eromenos, 24 avril 2011 - 03:38 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Nyoka wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...

Regardless, it is not a common occurence. It may be common for people in the 'community' of that segment, but that would almost go without saying. For people outside of the 'community' it would be a fairly rare occurence to 'witness', if ever occuring.

Geth were never really explored lorewise in ME1. They were just explained as robots the quarians created that revolted. No real background or lore where given about them, aside that we fought them. Batarians were similar empty in lore, although the novels at least tried making up for that.

The characters in ME, however, are 'up in your face' most of the time, and you get to know them well. There's a far cry of difference in fleshing out the lacking Geth lore and in making a personality changing flip on a well established character.

First of all, thanks for leaving aside the snarkiness and the sarcasm and the "switches".

I think whether it's common or not is irrelevant as long as it's realistic, and coming out is realistic because it happens to real people like those whom I mentioned in the last comment. I find "I have an implant in my brain that gives me magic powers" a lot weirder a comment than "I knew you wouldn't be surprised, I'm sure you knew it already. I let my eyes speak for me since the beginning." Cheeeesy, okay I'm not a good writer. But you get the point. Really, don't you know anybody who came out? A coworker, a town council member... It's not that rare nowadays. Come on.

As for flipping, Wanda Sykes and James Randi were well established characters before they came out. And they are as interesting now as they were before. Real examples prove that it's a form of character development that doesn't weaken the character in any way. I agree that it could be implemented poorly, as poorly as any other personality trait could. But you seemed to criticize the mere possibility of it, even before having the opportunity to experience it so you could judge its implementation. You seemed to think that the very idea of coming out is inherently bad.

I agree that coming out is and could be a realistic character development. What I see as a potential problem is one of demographics, which can cause people to feel that a human character behaving in a certain way is odd. (For the purpose of this example, I'm going to go with males because I don't want to have to fiddle with the statistics for both genders, and I've read more papers about male gender identity recently.) Let's say that somewhere between 8 and 15% of males are gay. Because of that, it's not that implausible for a male character without a strongly professed preference to come out as gay. The problem is that, according to recent studies I've seen, the percentage of male bisexuals is much, much lower, somewhere around 1-2%. It's also been theorized that a percentage of men who identify as bisexual will not identify that way 5-10 years later, with many later identifying as either straight or gay.

That's why a male character coming out as bisexual might seem significantly stranger than one being gay. "Oh, that's why he/she always seemed kind of meh about heterosexual relationships - he was actually gay!" makes total sense. That was pretty much my reaction when Wanda Sykes came out (Her standup for 3-4 years prior had basically been 'why do I even date anymore? men are boring).  Having a guy who has so far been a... ahem... enthusiastic heterosexual come out as bi is a far less familiar phenomenon. I think this is why there's a lot of objection to "Kaidan is Bi" as a plot development.

Of course all these assumptions only hold true for humanity. That's why I was so annoyed that Thane wasn't s/s romanceable - we have a new alien race with no pre-determined assumptions about their gender identity distribution, and they waste that on a totally straight dude? Come on. Especially if he was supposed to be fangirl bait. I'm trying to get my yaoi fan friend to play these games, and you are NOT MAKING IT EASY, BIOWARE.

At this point, I'm beginning to think that there should just be an "All Romances Available" button that you can push to.. well..  make all romances available. Give characters established sexualities, include at least one m/m and f/f romance in each game, but then also let people do what they want, if they want. It's easy enough to mod it in now, putting it in officially would take maybe two weeks of extra production time, if that. Minor rewrites for some of the dialogues, a few extra VO lines, check the love scenes for any weird clipping issues... bam.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 24 avril 2011 - 03:59 .

[SalsaDMA]

Erom: I'm not even gonna bother with you. Your responses show that you are just looking for excuses to try and claim predjudice where none exists. You are so hooked on being victimized that it's not even funny. Seriously, get some perspective.

Cata: there isn't alot to say to your opinion other than I disagree. I didn't elaborate cause it was clear we were just in disagreence and that would just be it. No point in stating multiple times that we disagree.

Nyo: I don't know the 2 names you mentioned, so I have no awareness of how well written they were. My stance on turning already established characters to another sexuality is bound in storytelling. If the characters were written as such from the start, that would have been 'whatever' to me. I was aware that Zevran in DA:O was bi and didn't have any issues with it, he was still a friend (albeit nothing more intimate than that) of my warden and ventured with him, as a friend, at the end. However, Anders being Bi in DA2 is a sore point for me plotwise. This is analogous to how I would feel if any of the previously established characters in ME suddenly had a change of depicted sexuality.

It's not the sexuality itself I have a personal problem with, it's the ravings of some people demanding what I perceive as sloppy writing to satisfy their personal fantasies I have a problem with (and I will flat out admit I will place Erom in this category.)

Modifié par SalsaDMA, 24 avril 2011 - 03:56 .

[Centauri2002]

SalsaDMA wrote...

It's not the sexuality itself I have a personal problem with, it's the ravings of some people demanding what I perceive as sloppy writing to satisfy their personal fantasies I have a problem with (and I will flat out admit I will place Erom in this category.)

It's not a personal fantasy of mine to see Kaiden or Ashley, or any other character in Mass Effect suddenly turn bisexual. It doesn't effect me in the slightest. I have my LI already and I'm not likely to deviate from her. However, I do disagree with the sloppy writing point. If the characters we're discussing had been specifically stated as being straight, then so be it. But they haven't. I can see quite a number of ways of showing their seemingly sudden interest in Shepard without it seeming out of character or out of place. 

I do hope they introduce someone for the lonely MaleSheps out there who are just looking for a little male company, just so it doesn't seem like such a huge double standard. Even if it's someone new.

[catabuca]

jeweledleah wrote...

writing bisexual character who is avaialble as bisexual LI from the moment they meet a protagonist IS easiest, becasue in case of bioware, they just record the same dialogue for both genders and use the same animations (which in case of female characters lands them with swan necks and longer then normal limbs)  lets take DA2 for isntance.  none of the characters have history with Hawke.  none of the characters were previously available as love interests and in case of Fenris/Merril, they wren't even developed much at all. Anders was the only one that needed to be explained in some way, but again, no prior history with Hawke = clean relationship slate.

The bold part ... oh really? This is what you're saying now? About Anders? When did you have this monumental change of heart? Wasn't too long ago you were using Anders as an example of the worst possible way a character could be butchered beyond all recognition merely for the fan service inclusion of a gay or bisexual LI. Weren't you waxing lyrical about how it was dreadful, and how much you feared for the future of BW and the games you love so dearly if they ever did what they did to Anders to anyone else? Didn't you ignore all the times people talked about how he makes no statement about his orientation in Awakening, and handwave it away?

You can say that it's okay because he had no prior relationship with Hawke, but you certainly used a very different argument when it suited in the past. I'm intrigued why you appear to have switch-turned around to such a degree. Very intrigued.

[SalsaDMA]

Actually, coming to think of it, there is already an established male gay in the ME universe: Hendel Mitra.

He even got combat and biotic training so wouldn't look totally out of place on Sheps team.