912 réponses à ce sujet

[SalsaDMA]

catabuca wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...

writing bisexual character who is avaialble as bisexual LI from the moment they meet a protagonist IS easiest, becasue in case of bioware, they just record the same dialogue for both genders and use the same animations (which in case of female characters lands them with swan necks and longer then normal limbs)  lets take DA2 for isntance.  none of the characters have history with Hawke.  none of the characters were previously available as love interests and in case of Fenris/Merril, they wren't even developed much at all. Anders was the only one that needed to be explained in some way, but again, no prior history with Hawke = clean relationship slate.

The bold part ... oh really? This is what you're saying now? About Anders? When did you have this monumental change of heart? Wasn't too long ago you were using Anders as an example of the worst possible way a character could be butchered beyond all recognition merely for the fan service inclusion of a gay or bisexual LI. Weren't you waxing lyrical about how it was dreadful, and how much you feared for the future of BW and the games you love so dearly if they ever did what they did to Anders to anyone else? Didn't you ignore all the times people talked about how he makes no statement about his orientation in Awakening, and handwave it away?

You can say that it's okay because he had no prior relationship with Hawke, but you certainly used a very different argument when it suited in the past. I'm intrigued why you appear to have switch-turned around to such a degree. Very intrigued.

There's a difference in it being plausible due to the 'affectionated character' being a different person, and in saying that the change in behaviour to the specific character was badly done.

[catabuca]

SalsaDMA wrote...

Cata: there isn't alot to say to your opinion other than I disagree. I didn't elaborate cause it was clear we were just in disagreence and that would just be it. No point in stating multiple times that we disagree.

Which parts do we disagree on?

Do we disagree on my own personal experiences? Do you dare to suggest that my own path through life and 'realisation' is a lie? Doesn't exist? Isn't realistic? I am but one example, I personally know plenty of other people for whom this is an ongoing process, and not always something that becomes apparent when you hit puberty, or before. If it's that that you disagree with, quite frankly that needs taking issue with, because you are essentially trying to erase an entire section of a person's experience.

If it's the latter part of my post you disagree with, well I would say it does indeed need addressing, because it's talking about the self same things you are repeatedly arguing about with others. Why not engage with me on the subject but with others? I'm just a little confused as to why you would continue the same argument, but say there's no point doing it with one particular person ... what was it about my words that invalidate my comments but not others? I'm honestly interested to understand, so I can target my posts better in the future.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Nyoka wrote...

I'm not worried about demographics. So it's odd. Two lines are enough:
- Really? That's odd.
- Yeah, I guess so. It's just me.
Good writing will make things flow naturally through that oddness as we saw in ME1: It's also odd that Ashley is the granddaughter of the only human ever to surrender a colony to an alien enemy. There's only one soldier in the entire Alliance military who can say that (I figure the Alliance military has a hellovalot soldiers doing garrison duty, but you encountered her), and you have her on your ship. It's odd that the daughter of Benezia is an expert pecisely on the subject you need to learn more about in order to succeed in your mission. Of all the jobs in the world, she chose "Prothean expert". Odd things are fine as long as you take them at face value.

Totally agree with the alien part.

I'm not saying we should be worried about the demographics, necessarily, just that it helps us understand what might cause certain people to feel a given scenario was "unrealistic." 

It's also hard to write a scenario where you have six bisexual love interests without developing harem syndrome: every conversation becomes about dealing with romance and rejection, and that can get tiring or frustrating, regardless of gender. I already feel kinda bad having to navigate the emotional minefields of five people; make it nine and it becomes an episode of Tenchi Muyo. As much as I loved that show, I do not want to be Tenchi! Having every single LI available at the same time would feel weird to a lot of players, myself included. I'd rather have no love interests I like than have every crewmember in love with me... I know that may be an outlier position, but it's true.

That said, it sucks to have your preferred specific option non-romanceable; I know a dozen committed Femshep players who have rolled a Manshep just to get to do Tali's romance, heck I may do the same someday. That's why I propose the compromise of a 'click this option to make all romances available' button. That way, if you don't mind the harem vibe, everyone is Shepard-sexual. Alternately, there could be certain romances that you have to specifically trigger, so that it's difficult for people to end up with the "tripped and fell into Jacob's pants" feeling so many are unfond of.  Of course, I also think there should be s/s romances available even before you hit the "all romances available" button, but I don't think anyone here is arguing that there shouldn't be SOME same sex romances available.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 24 avril 2011 - 04:27 .

[emmanuelsieyes]

Maybe James Sanders will be a m/m option.

I find it really amusing that we're considering how 'naturally' the romances flow. If we just take the ME 'mances at face value, they're all completely and hilariously unrealistic, especially some of the alien pairings.

I mean, Kaiden and Ashley are Shepard's subordinates. That's like, rule number 1, of the military. Don't screw the crew.

I personally murdered Liara's mother, right in front of her.

Garrus and Tali will die if they, ahem, 'ingest'.

The ME romances are fanservice in its purest, most delicious form.

Personally, I prefer the ME2 approach to romance (though I like Liara better) - Shepard has to speak the magic words to activate it.

The major objection that I've seen to s/s pairings is that people are concerned that it will derail the characters - even though the romance dialogue is a small part of the overall characterization. If I had to talk about Garrus, the first thing that comes to mind is 'badass vigilante'. It's not 'wants to bang femshep'. The major opposition to s/s 'mances has been that it will somehow derail the character - even though the sexuality of a character is comparatively quite minor.

The default option for Shepard should be asexual.

[Eromenos]

SalsaDMA wrote...

Erom: I'm not even gonna bother with you. Your responses show that you are just looking for excuses to try and claim predjudice where none exists. You are so hooked on being victimized that it's not even funny. Seriously, get some perspective.

Prejudice is the avoidant euphemismistic label for such things as homophobia, racism, and misogyny. They are all systemic hatreds in American society and they are prevalent in BioWare's products. Namely, in this here IP of theirs' called "ME."

Prejudice is defaulted upon to try dismissing events of political discord; that challenges against status quo should be minimized, isolated, minor, labeled as "a big fuss over nothing." This is to attempt denying the existence of actual complexities behind monopolies of power/ideologies, and the abuses which stem from such powers and ideologies. In effect, this means that supposedly having "women's channels," "gay channels," and "one black channel" on TV is an example of hatreds no longer in effect in this country. As long as they're relegated out of the mainstream. Out of the way, easily identifiable so "good people" can't stumble onto them. Nevermind that groups may feel driven to such places from being kept out of the mainstream because they're looked upon as undesirables!

Token exploitative cop-outs like Kelly the Secretary Screensaver means that fake lezzies are A-OK in ME.

But, you go ahead. Keep denying the realities of homophobia. Especially within the people who claim to be allies, just so long as queers don't "over-step."

Modifié par Eromenos, 24 avril 2011 - 04:35 .

[SalsaDMA]

Cata: I'm talking about storytelling techniques and the quality I feel are inherent in those. You are talking about your personal experiences. Vastly different topics and doesn't really constitute a meaningfull debate.

Erom: First of all, I'm not from the states (I asume that is what you mean when you say 'American society', as opposed to the entirity of the american continents) so I have no awareness of what it's like there, and quite frankly I don't need to. Ofc I can see form your perspective of 'American society' meaning 'the small part that you live in' that you are somewhat lacking in broad perspections.. Your point seems to be: You personally experience something, therefore everyone else must suffer for your personal experience.

Life doesn't work that way, and if you think it does, I pity you.

If anything, you should have learned along time ago from the story about the child that cried wolf.

[Centauri2002]

The conversation is starting to become a bit personal between certain folks. Could you try to steer yourselves back towards the specific topic?

[Siansonea]

How many threads do we need to argue over this topic? This is obviously a hot button issue. I hope BioWare is paying attention.

On the one hand, we have a group of people who are currently being catered to: (presumably) straight homophobes who are uncomfortable with homosexuality being implemented in ME3— even if it's 100% optional, 100% avoidable with a little common sense, and OMG GAY HOMOSECTIONALS!!!! This group is so afraid of Teh Gayz that they want to make sure that no one can accidentaly trip and fall into a gay storyline, because that would be just unacceptable.

Oooookay.

On the other hand, we have a group of people who think that players should have the option to decide for themselves whether their character is straight, gay, bi, or just not interested in any lovin' from anybody. I am one of these people who support More Options/Let The Player Decide. We've got all sorts of ideas for how the missing options could be implemented. Good writing can accomplish all sorts of things, from expanding existing characters to include same-sex interest in Shepard to creating new, memorable characters with a heartfelt romance aspect to their same-sex storyline with Shepard. We’re not trying to take anything away from the anti s/s crowd, but you’d think we were stealing their children and baking them into pies. Adding stuff to the game doesn’t take anything away. That’s Basic Math. Learning Basic Math could help this conversation considerably, I suggest anyone unfamiliar with it take a refresher course. And while they’re at it, they could learn about Logic, and perhaps acquire a working knowledge of Human Sexuality. And no, you can’t learn about that from church pamphlets or medical journals published in 1950.

What BioWare does regarding sames-sex content is ultimately up to them. I’m pretty sure they know where we all stand on the issue by now. And I’m pretty sure they know that The Internet Is Watching. Anything they do will upset somebody, even if they do nothing. Anything they do will be discussed on the Internet afterward, even if they do nothing. Many game journalists will weigh in on the issue, as well as all of us here on the BioWare forums, it’s the nature of the beast. But the conversation isn’t going to go away, and the number of “OMG Anders hit on me GAY PANIC!!” and “OMG Kaidan/Ashley/whoever is STRAIGHT Y’ALL GAY PANIC!!” threads should illustrate that quite clearly.

I’m taking a wait and see approach, and I’m hoping BioWare doesn’t come down on the side of 13-year-old boys and closet cases. I guess I’m an optimist.

[SalsaDMA]

Siansonea II wrote...

On the one hand, we have a group of people who are currently being catered to: (presumably) straight homophobes who are uncomfortable with homosexuality being implemented in ME3

I thought it was already established that both Liara and Kelly were considered non-straigth?

And good job steering us back in the usage of degatory terms like 'phobes' when talking about people you disagree with.

Edit: as also pointed out earlier, there is also already a male gay only person in the canon: Hendel Mitra. So I find it ludicrous that you are making such a fake stance as you are with that comment.

Modifié par SalsaDMA, 24 avril 2011 - 04:46 .

[Centauri2002]

SalsaDMA wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

On the one hand, we have a group of people who are currently being catered to: (presumably) straight homophobes who are uncomfortable with homosexuality being implemented in ME3

I thought it was already established that both Liara and Kelly were considered non-straigth?

And good job steering us back in the usage of degatory terms like 'phobes' when talking about people you disagree with.

Kelly's seems omnisexual (or possibly omnomnomnisexual), to me. But, she's female and not an option for the MaleSheps out there who may be gay. Also, if you think Liara and Kelly were put in for lesbians... I think you'll find you were mistaken there. 

So, it's still catering for the straight male crowd.

Modifié par centauri2002, 24 avril 2011 - 04:49 .

[halokitty]

Honestly, the sheer number of casually homophobic and insulting responses to s/s threads here on the main boards sort-of crushes my faith in humanity. =(

[Eromenos]

SalsaDMA wrote...

Erom: First of all, I'm not from the states (I asume that is what you mean when you say 'American society', as opposed to the entirity of the american continents) so I have no awareness of what it's like there, and quite frankly I don't need to. Ofc I can see form your perspective of 'American society' meaning 'the small part that you live in' that you are somewhat lacking in broad perspections.. Your point seems to be: You personally experience something, therefore everyone else must suffer for your personal experience.

Life doesn't work that way, and if you think it does, I pity you.

If anything, you should have learned along time ago from the story about the child that cried wolf.

And I know that BioWare is based in Canada, not in America. So what? Their primary audience is American, and thus they chose to slave by the unfortunately dominant American cultural ideologies. The safest path of least resistance. Brav-O.

Homophobia is a made-up lie, I take it? Ah, you who do not come from America would be in such an apt position to claim my experiences are "limited, isolated, minor, unworthy" because you know so much about this country and it is your tired gambit to try minimizing my views. You're really just following the sad script I'd already laid out for you a few minutes ago.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Nyoka wrote...

Oh, I'd also prefer not having LIs at all rather than having every squadmate going after me. I've seen plenty of people coming out, but I've never entered in a room where EVERYBODY is interested in me. That's not just odd, it's surreal. I don't want to have to have conversation after conversation with different people, all of them dealing with the same thing.

Of course, I also think there should be s/s romances available even before you hit the "all romances available" button, but I don't think anyone here is arguing that there shouldn't be SOME same sex romances available.

I prefer no button at all because seeing that button is like the game admitting there's a problem with it, like with gore. Like "hey I give you the possibility, if you want to be that perverted, that's your business." s/s romance should be in the 'morally inoffensive' pack, along with everything else not within the reach of that button.

Having SOME romances is the best solution in my opinion. I'd settle for just Liara, Kaidan and Ashley. And I don't even like Liara or Kaidan xD could be others of course, that's up to Bioware. I have my favourites, but I don't really care which ones are "the ones". Ultimately what I stand for is equality: having the same LIs regardless of sexual orientation, no matter how many there are or who they are.

Yeah, I realized that that's a pitfall to having a button you can hit. That's why I feel they would have to explicitly have a full range of sexualities WITHOUT the button, so it wouldn't seem like a "Gay/No Gay" switch.

In my mind, the default would be something like this: Miranda - male only, Tali - either gender, Samara - female only. So if you're a straight dude who wants to romance Samara, you also have to hit the "make all romances available" button. It wouldn't be a "no gay" button. It would be a "more options" button, if that makes sense. Of course, I think there should also be a "I don't have time for this crap" button you can hit to turn all of the LIs off. Also called "Mordin mode." (This is only kind of a joke, I know a lot of people who wanted to play Asexual sheps who got "romance ambushed" in the first one, much to their discomfort.)

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 24 avril 2011 - 04:58 .

[SalsaDMA]

Erom: No, you're just droning on with the same stuff time and time again without even understanding that you aren't debating: you're raving. Read my points. Understand them instead of just using them as a trigger to wanting to hit the post button again.

All you're doing is continually saying: You have had a certain experience, therefore everyone that disagrees with you must be homophobes.

That is neither conductive for debate, nor is it conductive for the general experience of people when trying to discuss with you. In essence, you are worse than that which you claim others to be by your statements alone.

Actually. come to think of it, you keep stating things as if you think everyone that disagrees with you as being 'out to get you', purely because they disagree with you. There's a word for that, it's called 'paranoid'.

[Centauri2002]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

In my mind, the default would be something like this: Miranda - straight only, Tali - Bi, Samara - gay only. So if you're a straight dude who wants to romance Samara, you also have to hit the "make all romances available" button. It wouldn't be a "no gay" button. It would be a "more options" button, if that makes sense. Of course, I think there should also be a "I don't have time for this crap" button you can hit to turn all of the LIs off. Also called "Mordin mode." 

That's an option, sure, but not one I'm entirely keen on. If needs must, then so be it. I'd much rather have that content in the game and people just didn't get offended over something being there that they don't have to partake in. Wishful thinking though, I know.

I really would like to see a gay character as a LI at some point in the near future though. It's not going to happen in Mass Effect but some day...

[Siansonea]

SalsaDMA wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

On the one hand, we have a group of people who are currently being catered to: (presumably) straight homophobes who are uncomfortable with homosexuality being implemented in ME3

I thought it was already established that both Liara and Kelly were considered non-straigth?

And good job steering us back in the usage of degatory terms like 'phobes' when talking about people you disagree with.

Edit: as also pointed out earlier, there is also already a male gay only person in the canon: Hendel Mitra. So I find it ludicrous that you are making such a fake stance as you are with that comment.

I'm sorry, is there a politically correct term for homophobes? "Empathetically Challenged"? And what does Hendel Mitra have to do with anything? Right now I'm filing that one under "non sequitur". If you're trying to say "Hey, there's a gay character in one of the books, and I haven't burned my copy of the Mass Effect games and therefore I'm not a homophobe", then let me be the one to initiate the slow clap.

[Vormaerin]

emmanuelsieyes wrote...

Ifind it really amusing that we're considering how 'naturally' the romances flow. If we just take the ME 'mances at face value, they're all completely and hilariously unrealistic, especially some of the alien pairings.

Yeah, this is especially amusing.   Someone thinks the romances are actually realistic?   Five lines of dialogue and superagent woman is panting at Shepard's feet completely out of the blue?   There's NEVER any relationship drama.

Super pirate **** is converted by the power of five brief chats into a life of honesty and love.  What?

Its not completely ridiculous wish fulfillment nonsense that Tali, LIara, Ashley, Kelly, Jack, and Miranda are all hot for your red eyed, scar faced jerk Shepard?   Where the heck is that midget, Tattoo?  He's obviously on the wrong ship...

What planet do you live on where 50 lines of dialogue means you know everything there is to know about someone?  No one has ever done something you didn't expect once you've had 10 conversations with them?   No one has ever disappeared for several years and returned seeming different?

[CulturalGeekGirl]

centauri2002 wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

In my mind, the default would be something like this: Miranda - straight only, Tali - Bi, Samara - gay only. So if you're a straight dude who wants to romance Samara, you also have to hit the "make all romances available" button. It wouldn't be a "no gay" button. It would be a "more options" button, if that makes sense. Of course, I think there should also be a "I don't have time for this crap" button you can hit to turn all of the LIs off. Also called "Mordin mode." 

That's an option, sure, but not one I'm entirely keen on. If needs must, then so be it. I'd much rather have that content in the game and people just didn't get offended over something being there that they don't have to partake in. Wishful thinking though, I know.

I really would like to see a gay character as a LI at some point in the near future though. It's not going to happen in Mass Effect but some day...

The problem is that it's really obviously a challenge to write these things in such a way that you can totally avoid them. I got creeped out by Jacob, and I know a lot of girls who felt they had to murder Kaidan in order to prevent him from trying to sleep with them. At the same time, I enjoyed Kaidan's hyper flirty romance. So while I enjoyed it, I can understand how some girls were like "Leave me alooooone why won't you take no for an answer?"

What I worry about is this: if they make all romances bisexual all the time 1. Harem syndrome (which I discuss above) and 2. They won't be able to make cool, immersive romances like ME1 Kaidan anymore, because romances like that aren't as "avoidable," if that makes any sense.

Then again, I also have a few friends who are asexuals... so I'm also looking at things from their perspective, too.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 24 avril 2011 - 05:04 .

[SalsaDMA]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
(This is only kind of a joke, I know a lot of people who wanted to play Asexual sheps who got "romance ambushed" in the first one, much to their discomfort.)

My third playthrough in ME1+ME2 I didn't romance anyone, and I never felt 'romance ambushed' either. Everyone were clear that myshep in that game were just friendly and nothing more.

so how did the 'ambush' occur? I'm kinda curious since I never saw it.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

I think it would be best for both sides if their were new characters in ME3 that were gay or bi.

[Centauri2002]

Vormaerin wrote...

emmanuelsieyes wrote...

Ifind it really amusing that we're considering how 'naturally' the romances flow. If we just take the ME 'mances at face value, they're all completely and hilariously unrealistic, especially some of the alien pairings.

Yeah, this is especially amusing.   Someone thinks the romances are actually realistic?   Five lines of dialogue and superagent woman is panting at Shepard's feet completely out of the blue?   There's NEVER any relationship drama.

Super pirate **** is converted by the power of five brief chats into a life of honesty and love.  What?

Its not completely ridiculous wish fulfillment nonsense that Tali, LIara, Ashley, Kelly, Jack, and Miranda are all hot for your red eyed, scar faced jerk Shepard?   Where the heck is that midget, Tattoo?  He's obviously on the wrong ship...

What planet do you live on where 50 lines of dialogue means you know everything there is to know about someone?  No one has ever done something you didn't expect once you've had 10 conversations with them?   No one has ever disappeared for several years and returned seeming different?

Aye, none of the romances developed in a very realistic manner. Although I might have a different opinion for later developments. But they never started off that way. That was one of the little things that had me raising a questioning eyebrow at the screen during ME1. So for people to complain about realism now, at such a late stage, is a little silly.

Still, I recognise the limitations of the game and this isn't a dating sim so it's not practical to spend a lot of time on exploring courting dialogue. I would prefer a realistic depiction, of course, but I can also enjoy what is there. 

[SalsaDMA]

Siansonea II wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

On the one hand, we have a group of people who are currently being catered to: (presumably) straight homophobes who are uncomfortable with homosexuality being implemented in ME3

I thought it was already established that both Liara and Kelly were considered non-straigth?

And good job steering us back in the usage of degatory terms like 'phobes' when talking about people you disagree with.

Edit: as also pointed out earlier, there is also already a male gay only person in the canon: Hendel Mitra. So I find it ludicrous that you are making such a fake stance as you are with that comment.

I'm sorry, is there a politically correct term for homophobes? "Empathetically Challenged"? And what does Hendel Mitra have to do with anything? Right now I'm filing that one under "non sequitur". If you're trying to say "Hey, there's a gay character in one of the books, and I haven't burned my copy of the Mass Effect games and therefore I'm not a homophobe", then let me be the one to initiate the slow clap.

I'm sorry, but you clearly are only reading your own words.

Please tell me exactly where they are 'catering to homophobic straigths' in ME when there is Liara, Kelly and Hendel Mitra as already established characters in the lore, as well as every single Asari in the lore being technically 'Bi' as well.

As for the further usage of degatory wordings about people you disagree with, I can only shake my head at you and roll my eyes. The only challenged in this regard is your bility to read, it seems.

[Ryzaki]

SalsaDMA wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
(This is only kind of a joke, I know a lot of people who wanted to play Asexual sheps who got "romance ambushed" in the first one, much to their discomfort.)

My third playthrough in ME1+ME2 I didn't romance anyone, and I never felt 'romance ambushed' either. Everyone were clear that myshep in that game were just friendly and nothing more.

so how did the 'ambush' occur? I'm kinda curious since I never saw it.

I got ambushed by Ash twice. Had to sound like a jerk to break it off. I was very dipleased. after that I just stopped talking to her or Virmire'd her. Nothing to stop an unwanted romance like a  nuke.   

Vormaerin wrote...

emmanuelsieyes wrote...

Ifind it really amusing that we're considering how 'naturally' the romances flow. If we just take the ME 'mances at face value, they're all completely and hilariously unrealistic, especially some of the alien pairings.

Yeah, this is especially amusing.   Someone thinks the romances are actually realistic?   Five lines of dialogue and superagent woman is panting at Shepard's feet completely out of the blue?   There's NEVER any relationship drama.

Super pirate **** is converted by the power of five brief chats into a life of honesty and love.  What?

Its not completely ridiculous wish fulfillment nonsense that Tali, LIara, Ashley, Kelly, Jack, and Miranda are all hot for your red eyed, scar faced jerk Shepard?   Where the heck is that midget, Tattoo?  He's obviously on the wrong ship...

What planet do you live on where 50 lines of dialogue means you know everything there is to know about someone?  No one has ever done something you didn't expect once you've had 10 conversations with them?   No one has ever disappeared for several years and returned seeming different?

Good lord THIS. It's fanservice fodder. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 24 avril 2011 - 05:11 .