912 réponses à ce sujet

[Vormaerin]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

I think it would be best for both sides if their were new characters in ME3 that were gay or bi.

I think there are already so many characters in this game that they ought to be opening up a soap opera franchise.  We've got 10 love interests already in game and even a few characters that miraculously manage to go the whole journey without lusting for Shepard and we are going to add more?

We already have people sleeping on the floor in engineering and stuffed into the cargo bays.   Where are these new people going to live?  THe maintenance shafts?

[CulturalGeekGirl]

SalsaDMA wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
(This is only kind of a joke, I know a lot of people who wanted to play Asexual sheps who got "romance ambushed" in the first one, much to their discomfort.)

My third playthrough in ME1+ME2 I didn't romance anyone, and I never felt 'romance ambushed' either. Everyone were clear that myshep in that game were just friendly and nothing more.

so how did the 'ambush' occur? I'm kinda curious since I never saw it.

There's a bug(?) where if you turn Kaidan down he can still show up in your room that night (that's how my friends described it anyway, I always romance someone on purpose so I haven't run into it myself). There's even a bug where if he never shows up in your room in ME1, he'll say "I loved you!" in ME2 and you'll have his picture on your desk for some reason. Nuking him from orbit is the only way to be sure, and I've known girls who did that to have a "clean" shep.

There was also a somewhat famous line from a review back when it came out: "I don't think I have anything to add about Mass Effect except that it's the only game I've played where you can have lesbian sex without meaning to." I was definitely just trying to be nice to Liara when all of a sudden I was like "Whoa wait a second... if I were more naive or less observant I might not see where this is going."

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 24 avril 2011 - 05:12 .

[Ramirez Wolfen]

@SalsaDMA

Some people here (not pointing fingers at some of the folks on this thread) are impossible to discuss this without resorting to basically regarding everyone who disagrees as homophobic.

[Centauri2002]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

The problem is that it's really obviously a challenge to write these things in such a way that you can totally avoid them. I got creeped out by Jacob, and I know a lot of girls who felt they had to murder Kaidan in order to prevent him from trying to sleep with them. At the same time, I enjoyed Kaidan's hyper flirty romance. So while I enjoyed it, I can understand how some girls were like "Leave me alooooone why won't you take no for an answer?"

What I worry about is this: if they make all romances bisexual all the time 1. Harem syndrome (which I discuss above) and 2. They won't be able to make cool, immersive romances like ME1 Kaidan anymore, because romances like that aren't as "avoidable," if that makes any sense.

Then again, I also have a few friends who are asexuals... so I'm also looking at things from their perspective, too.

I was also creeped out by the Jacob interaction. Although, that wasn't really Jacob's fault, it was the lack of control I felt I had over my Shepard. She'd suddenly launch into uber flirty mode whenever initiating dialogue and I'd be left thinking "have you forgotten you're a lesbian, Kristen!?" It made me feel rather uncomfortable. I'm not sure what BioWare were thinking there.

Kaiden was never a problem for me, in any of my play throughs. But I think that may have had something to do with me romancing Liara and telling him pretty quickly where my interests lay. 

I can't say I'm for the all bisexual option either. Yes, it's probably the easiest way of pleasing everyone but it's hardly realistic. And that harem vibe is rather unavoidable. I'd much rather they focus on a smaller number of romances (one straight, one bisexual, one gay, if that works for that particular game, for example) and flesh those out so they're actually meaningful to the story. Do that instead of adding in a huge array of options for titalation's sake.

And, yes, perhaps have it so you need to initiate romantic interest so people wanting to avoid it altogether can play in their own way. Although, I don't see the problem with turning someone down either.

[Ryzaki]

You got harem vibe from DA2 centauri2002?

To be honest I always got more of a harem vibe from the ME games than the DA games.
Doesn't help that the ME games have more LIs for a straight male protagonist than a  straight female one. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 24 avril 2011 - 05:14 .

[Vormaerin]

SalsaDMA wrote...


Please tell me exactly where they are 'catering to homophobic straigths' in ME when there is Liara, Kelly and Hendel Mitra as already established characters in the lore, as well as every single Asari in the lore being technically 'Bi' as well.

Hendel Mitra exists only in a book, not in the game.  I had to look him up in the wiki to know who you are talking about.   He hardly counts as being an option for gay males.    And Liara and Kelly are also not exactly options for gay males.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

@vormaerin

We are already getting new squadmates in ME3. Whether they are going to remain that way, has yet to be seen........

And I'm fine if they make people who weren't previously LIs but appeared in the games (like Joker).

[Inquisitor Recon]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

@SalsaDMA
Some people here (not pointing fingers at some of the folks on this thread) are impossible to discuss this without resorting to basically regarding everyone who disagrees as homophobic.

Pretty much.

"By not catering to me Bioware is catering to homophobes."

I'm already working on ways to use this twisted logic to get what I want. Hey Bioware, but not adding an improved version of the Mako you're catering to Naz!s.

Modifié par ReconTeam, 24 avril 2011 - 05:33 .

[SalsaDMA]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
(This is only kind of a joke, I know a lot of people who wanted to play Asexual sheps who got "romance ambushed" in the first one, much to their discomfort.)

My third playthrough in ME1+ME2 I didn't romance anyone, and I never felt 'romance ambushed' either. Everyone were clear that myshep in that game were just friendly and nothing more.

so how did the 'ambush' occur? I'm kinda curious since I never saw it.

There's a bug(?) where if you turn Kaidan down he can still show up in your room that night (that's how my friends described it anyway, I always romance someone on purpose so I haven't run into it myself). There's even a bug where if he never shows up in your room in ME1, he'll say "I loved you!" in ME2 and you'll have his picture on your desk for some reason. Nuking him from orbit is the only way to be sure, and I've known girls who did that to have a "clean" shep.

There was also a somewhat famous line from a review back when it came out: "I don't think I have anything to add about Mass Effect except that it's the only game I've played where you can have lesbian sex without meaning to." I was definitely just trying to be nice to Liara when all of a sudden I was like "Whoa wait a second... if I were more naive or less observant I might not see where this is going."

Fair enough. My 'no romance' playthrough were a 'ruthless female renegade' and I never encountered those bugs. Kaidan always kept his nose clean when I talked with him for status reports and opinions.

funny to hear about them, though.

[Centauri2002]

Ryzaki wrote...

You got harem vibe from DA2 centauri2002?

To be honest I always got more of a harem vibe from the ME games than the DA games.

I haven't, no. But I haven't finished playing it yet. I'll get around to it at some point. >.>

I imagine some people will feel that way though. I have no problems imagining the other characters I choose not to romance as having no interest in me, or having different sexualities.

[Eromenos]

SalsaDMA wrote...

Erom: No, you're just droning on with the same stuff time and time again without even understanding that you aren't debating: you're raving. Read my points. Understand them instead of just using them as a trigger to wanting to hit the post button again.

All you're doing is continually saying: You have had a certain experience, therefore everyone that disagrees with you must be homophobes.

Actually, you're the one who's been continually raving about vague, generalized depictions of queer people supposedly crying victim over nothing. You feel that our issues will mean your supposed victimhood gets no attention.

I'm still wondering as to what exactly constitutes "real homophobia" to you? To me it includes the "smallest" of things like exclusion and marginalization. Intentional or unintentional, they are both the same. And we get that in ME. But it seems like someone has to die first, the way Matthew Shepard or Gwen Araujo did, before you can register "true victims." If even then?

I'm also still waiting for you to supply even a specific instance of being called a "racist" by a non-white person over something you felt was overblown at their end. You complained about it so much, yet you can't dredge up an example? At least try to make up something that happened "between your friends." So much easier though, isn't it, for you to just paint race-relations in a way that makes you look the martyr. You're such a good person. You're "not racist." You're "not homophobic." If we would all just adopt a "positive attitude" the world be so good. So good!

That is neither conductive for debate, nor is it conductive for the general experience of people when trying to discuss with you. In essence, you are worse than that which you claim others to be by your statements alone.

Actually. come to think of it, you keep stating things as if you think everyone that disagrees with you as being 'out to get you', purely because they disagree with you. There's a word for that, it's called 'paranoid'.

This is called a person with unearned privileges like you labeling someone like me as "crazy" in a tiresome attempt to discredit my challenges against the house of cards that you hide behind. And for what? To guard the "purity and integrity" of some pixels?

Modifié par Eromenos, 24 avril 2011 - 05:23 .

[Ryzaki]

centauri2002 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

You got harem vibe from DA2 centauri2002?

To be honest I always got more of a harem vibe from the ME games than the DA games.

I haven't, no. But I haven't finished playing it yet. I'll get around to it at some point. >.>

I imagine some people will feel that way though. I have no problems imagining the other characters I choose not to romance as having no interest in me, or having different sexualities.

That's exactly what happens if you choose not to romance Fenris or Isabela. The two of them hook up. 

Anders will always hold a torch for Hawke (similar to Liara) but he's more of a jealous ass than Liara is. 

Merrill is clueless until Hawke flrts with her and she doesn't think about relationships otherwise. 

Isabela is...Isabela. 

I don't see how anyone gota harem feeling out of anyone but Anders fighting with the LIs. 

[CulturalGeekGirl]

centauri2002 wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

The problem is that it's really obviously a challenge to write these things in such a way that you can totally avoid them. I got creeped out by Jacob, and I know a lot of girls who felt they had to murder Kaidan in order to prevent him from trying to sleep with them. At the same time, I enjoyed Kaidan's hyper flirty romance. So while I enjoyed it, I can understand how some girls were like "Leave me alooooone why won't you take no for an answer?"

What I worry about is this: if they make all romances bisexual all the time 1. Harem syndrome (which I discuss above) and 2. They won't be able to make cool, immersive romances like ME1 Kaidan anymore, because romances like that aren't as "avoidable," if that makes any sense.

Then again, I also have a few friends who are asexuals... so I'm also looking at things from their perspective, too.

I was also creeped out by the Jacob interaction. Although, that wasn't really Jacob's fault, it was the lack of control I felt I had over my Shepard. She'd suddenly launch into uber flirty mode whenever initiating dialogue and I'd be left thinking "have you forgotten you're a lesbian, Kristen!?" It made me feel rather uncomfortable. I'm not sure what BioWare were thinking there.

Kaiden was never a problem for me, in any of my play throughs. But I think that may have had something to do with me romancing Liara and telling him pretty quickly where my interests lay. 

I can't say I'm for the all bisexual option either. Yes, it's probably the easiest way of pleasing everyone but it's hardly realistic. And that harem vibe is rather unavoidable. I'd much rather they focus on a smaller number of romances (one straight, one bisexual, one gay, if that works for that particular game, for example) and flesh those out so they're actually meaningful to the story. Do that instead of adding in a huge array of options for titalation's sake.

And, yes, perhaps have it so you need to initiate romantic interest so people wanting to avoid it altogether can play in their own way. Although, I don't see the problem with turning someone down either.

I agree on the smaller number of romances, representing all the orientations, that are well-developed for those particular orientations, being the best of all possible worlds.

That said, after seeing all the mod files and youtube vids of unlocked romance, I figure... why not just let people do it if they want? They're gonna do it anyway. Why punish the consolites? Why not include the VO for them? Consider it an easter egg. I think there HAS to be a middle road between a few well-developed romances and a pansexual harem. There's got to be a way to make everyone happy! And toggling between limited, heavily developed romances and "all bets are off" seems like the fastest way to compromise.

Then again, I'm a dreamer. Hehehe.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 24 avril 2011 - 05:19 .

[SalsaDMA]

Vormaerin wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...


Please tell me exactly where they are 'catering to homophobic straigths' in ME when there is Liara, Kelly and Hendel Mitra as already established characters in the lore, as well as every single Asari in the lore being technically 'Bi' as well.

Hendel Mitra exists only in a book, not in the game.  I had to look him up in the wiki to know who you are talking about.   He hardly counts as being an option for gay males.    And Liara and Kelly are also not exactly options for gay males.

Hendel is still part of canon, and I don't recall there being any fuss about his sexuality either. It was merely: "This is how he rolls" and that was it and people moved on.

For the lore to be catering to homophobics, homosexuality would be depicted as being something that was repressed or 'unwanted'. If anything, the lore mentions it at the exact same level as hetereosexuality: it doesn't make a fuss about it. Now excuse me for being blunt, but I thought that was actually how people wanted it? That their sexuality wasn't something to be 'fussed about', but just something that were?

In this regard I felt the writer of ME (Yes, it's the same writer that wrote the books that wrote ME1 and part of ME2) was being liberal about the whole issue. And here we have people acusing him for catering to homphobes because he doesn't sterreotype homosexuals as people that force their sexuality into other peoples faces... What gives...

[Centauri2002]

@Ryzaki: Good to know there's some development there outside the Hawkemancin'. It's a nice change, actually.

@CulturalGeekGirl: Personally, I'll prefer the option that makes the romance integral to the storyline and actually meaningful over a horde of options every time. But I'm a sucker for an epic romance story. 

Modifié par centauri2002, 24 avril 2011 - 05:25 .

[SalsaDMA]

Erom: You keep droning on in your own mind. you're still just pouring out the same drivel as previously. Consider this my last response to you as there isn't even a point to adress you. I might as well adress a loudspeaker from a record that was stuck.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Nyoka wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

In my mind, the default would be something like this: Miranda - male only, Tali - either gender, Samara - female only. So if you're a straight dude who wants to romance Samara, you also have to hit the "make all romances available" button. It wouldn't be a "no gay" button. It would be a "more options" button, if that makes sense. Of course, I think there should also be a "I don't have time for this crap" button you can hit to turn all of the LIs off. Also called "Mordin mode." (This is only kind of a joke, I know a lot of people who wanted to play Asexual sheps who got "romance ambushed" in the first one, much to their discomfort.)

I'm sold. It's the most original approach and now I'm sorry you had to explain it to me with simple words and examples for me to get it. And did you say that, in addition to how good this idea is, it would be easy to put into practice?

Open letter to Bioware NOW.

The reason I'm fairly confident that it could be done is how easily it can be modded in. I haven't modded it in myself, but apparently it's as simple as editing one flag in the save file, or switching genders for one scene in order to unlock the S/S romance for future scenes. Now, right now there are some problems with modding it in - no VO, some of the dialogue lines are gender specific, but considering that Liara had only slightly varying dialogue depending on the player's gender, it shouldn't be that hard to do the same for most of the others.

You'd have to live with the fact that there might be a few more bugs or a few awkward phrasings for the "more options" mode... if a character written as a lesbian is telling a male Shepard how much he reminds her of her ex girlfriend, some might find that strange. Or Thane calling a dude Siha... hehe.

[Targy90]

Eromenos wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...

Erom: No, you're just droning on with the same stuff time and time again without even understanding that you aren't debating: you're raving. Read my points. Understand them instead of just using them as a trigger to wanting to hit the post button again.

All you're doing is continually saying: You have had a certain experience, therefore everyone that disagrees with you must be homophobes.

Actually, you're the one who's been continually raving about vague, generalized depictions of queer people supposedly crying victim over nothing. You feel that our issues will mean your supposed victimhood gets no attention.

I'm still wondering as to what exactly constitutes "real homophobia" to you? To me it includes the "smallest" of things like exclusion and marginalization. Intentional or unintentional, they are both the same. And we get that in ME. But it seems like someone has to die first, the way Matthew Shepard or Gwen Araujo did, before you can register "true victims." If even then?

I'm also still waiting for you to supply even a specific instance of being called a "racist" by a non-white person over something you felt was overblown at their end. You complained about it so much, yet you can't dredge up an example? At least try to make up something that happened "between your friends." So much easier though, isn't it, for you to just paint race-relations in a way that makes you look the martyr. You're such a good person. You're "not racist." You're "not homophobic." If we would all just adopt a "positive attitude" the world be so good. So good!

That is neither conductive for debate, nor is it conductive for the general experience of people when trying to discuss with you. In essence, you are worse than that which you claim others to be by your statements alone.

Actually. come to think of it, you keep stating things as if you think everyone that disagrees with you as being 'out to get you', purely because they disagree with you. There's a word for that, it's called 'paranoid'.

This is called a person with unearned privileges like you labeling someone like me as "crazy" in a tiresome attempt to discredit my challenges against the house of cards that you hide behind. And for what? To guard the "purity and integrity" of some pixels?

Please, do keep rambling. Keep playing that minority-card, someone is bound to care.
Good luck.

[Vormaerin]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

I agree on the smaller number of romances, representing all the orientations, that are well-developed for those particular orientations, being the best of all possible worlds.

There's really no "win win" solution.   Bioware writers prefer to write bisexual options for gay romances because its far more cost effective.   Its a relatively expensive resource commitment to do a romance (cut scenes, voice acting, etc).   Leastwise, the devs have said so in the past.    Writing all straight characters still means you have 50% of your LI content unavailable to a particular player before you even get to the ability to only choose one of them.  When you add in a limited appeal character, like a gay male only option, you are getting into pretty low utilization rates.    Devs don't like putting that much resources into something that returns such a small value on the telemetry.

But making Joe swing both ways is only 10% more work than having him be straight OR gay.  And utilzation rates go way up.   That's the thought process.

[SalsaDMA]

Ryzaki wrote...

centauri2002 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

You got harem vibe from DA2 centauri2002?

To be honest I always got more of a harem vibe from the ME games than the DA games.

I haven't, no. But I haven't finished playing it yet. I'll get around to it at some point. >.>

I imagine some people will feel that way though. I have no problems imagining the other characters I choose not to romance as having no interest in me, or having different sexualities.

That's exactly what happens if you choose not to romance Fenris or Isabela. The two of them hook up. 

Anders will always hold a torch for Hawke (similar to Liara) but he's more of a jealous ass than Liara is. 

Merrill is clueless until Hawke flrts with her and she doesn't think about relationships otherwise. 

Isabela is...Isabela. 

I don't see how anyone gota harem feeling out of anyone but Anders fighting with the LIs. 

I did get a certain 'harem' feeling out of DA:O. I was persuing a relationship between my warden and Morrighan, and had literally to dodge verbal bullets with everyone to avoid 'getting in with them'. Even so, Lelianna STILL came up at some point and demanded that my warden chose between them and I was like :"WTF? Where did THAT come from???"

[Eromenos]

Vormaerin wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...


Please tell me exactly where they are 'catering to homophobic straigths' in ME when there is Liara, Kelly and Hendel Mitra as already established characters in the lore, as well as every single Asari in the lore being technically 'Bi' as well.

Hendel Mitra exists only in a book, not in the game.  I had to look him up in the wiki to know who you are talking about.   He hardly counts as being an option for gay males.    And Liara and Kelly are also not exactly options for gay males.

Hendel Mitra is only vaguely suggested as being interested in men by a female character's single throw-away line. In short, he's even more of a sad cop-out than Kelly and the asari characters are. He's not even, oh...what's that word, now?

"Established."

/golfclap for BioWare

Modifié par Eromenos, 24 avril 2011 - 05:42 .

[SalsaDMA]

Vormaerin wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

I agree on the smaller number of romances, representing all the orientations, that are well-developed for those particular orientations, being the best of all possible worlds.

There's really no "win win" solution.   Bioware writers prefer to write bisexual options for gay romances because its far more cost effective.   Its a relatively expensive resource commitment to do a romance (cut scenes, voice acting, etc).   Leastwise, the devs have said so in the past.    Writing all straight characters still means you have 50% of your LI content unavailable to a particular player before you even get to the ability to only choose one of them.  When you add in a limited appeal character, like a gay male only option, you are getting into pretty low utilization rates.    Devs don't like putting that much resources into something that returns such a small value on the telemetry.

But making Joe swing both ways is only 10% more work than having him be straight OR gay.  And utilzation rates go way up.   That's the thought process.

I can certainly see the economic side of it, but from a theoretic point of view I think it's a pity that economy guides creative possibilities, instead of creativity being the guiding line in how they write the content.

[Ryzaki]

SalsaDMA wrote.
I did get a certain 'harem' feeling out of DA:O. I was persuing a relationship between my warden and Morrighan, and had literally to dodge verbal bullets with everyone to avoid 'getting in with them'. Even so, Lelianna STILL came up at some point and demanded that my warden chose between them and I was like :"WTF? Where did THAT come from???"

 

You ran into Ninja Leliana bug. It was after her personal quest right? Her dialogue is bugged so that n matter what you say it sets the romance flag. That's not supposed to happen.

Thank the goddess for mods! 

[Russalka]

To assume that everyone who wants to explore gay or bisexual romance in ME3 is just a raving homophobe-calling drama queen with an inferiority-complex is fallacy.

Demanding to stay consistent with characters regarding sexuality is an honest preference. Thinking that some of the characters CANNOT be bisexual, and suddenly reveal to be so, is a matter of opinion, both sides can be right.

However, demanding to hide away add all homosexual content because of discomfort is phobia. To go by stereotypes when saying that Shepard or anyone else cannot be bi is rather wrong.

Why oh why hasn't this been closed yet, I wonder. These threads never get anywhere.

Modifié par Russalka, 24 avril 2011 - 05:39 .