912 réponses à ce sujet

[Centauri2002]

Vormaerin wrote...

centauri2002 wrote...

I think that's something important to remember when same sex romances are included. It's not about the sex, it's about the romance. 

I think the only romance I've actually really liked was Jaheira's back in Baldur's Gate II   (the whole game had a disastrous time line problem, so I just pretended it wasn't like three days after her husband's gory murder).   

To my shame, I haven't played that yet. I've purchased it though so I'll get on it. Just as soon as I've wrapped up one of the multitude of games installed on my PC. 

Scratch what I said previously actually and apply that to all romances, not just same sex ones. 

[Maugrim]

Ryzaki wrote...

makenzieshepard wrote...

Hell at this point I'd be happy if they just didn't get gender specific in the romance dialogues and made sure to record male and female shepard for the complete romance and dummied out the s/s stuff. Let the mods put it back in. Why yes I am a PC player

Not fair to the consolities.

But really at this point I'd take anything. 

They made their choices.  And anyone could've gotten this* if they really wanted it!

I know some modding can be done on the XBOX 360, maybe it wouldn't be so impossible or they could make it as easy as possible and not lock things out on purpose.... PS3 would be up fudge creek without a popsicle stick though.

*Except where prohibited

Modifié par makenzieshepard, 24 avril 2011 - 06:22 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

makenzieshepard wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

makenzieshepard wrote...

Hell at this point I'd be happy if they just didn't get gender specific in the romance dialogues and made sure to record male and female shepard for the complete romance and dummied out the s/s stuff. Let the mods put it back in. Why yes I am a PC player

Not fair to the consolities.

But really at this point I'd take anything. 

They made their choices.  And anyone could've gotten this* if they really wanted it!

I know some modding can be done on the XBOX 360, maybe it wouldn't be so impossible or they could make it as easy as possible and not lock things out on purpose.... PS3 would be up fudge creek without a popsicle stick though.

*Except where prohibited

That's why I keep advocating an in-game "everybody loves Shepard" button you can just hit to have all the sexytimes you want.

[Eromenos]

Vormaerin wrote...

Eromenos wrote...

Hendel Mitra is only vaguely suggested as being interested in men by a female character's single throw-away line. In short, he's even more of a sad cop-out than Kelly and the asari characters are.

I don't think Kelly is a sad cop out.  I think she actually makes more sense and behaves more realistically than any of the other LIs.  Maybe that's just because she panders to my middle aged hetero male mindset     She's the LI for my actual saves, because she's the only one of the lot who doesn't strike me as emo, crazy, or stalkerish.   I'm trying to save all organic life in the universe.  I don't need teh crazee in personal department.

Hehe. Whatever you say....

In all seriousness, I don't hold it against you for liking her. I hold it against BioWare for exploiting her while they refuse to "lower and degrade" the male characters similarly, since they fear that such an event would cause actual homophobic male gamers' heads to explode. Most of my ire against BioWare's portrait of Kelly stems from the fact that, as a female-character, she's an example of them being singled-out to play fanservice for those guys who then make all guys look bad. What I mean is that she was tailored purposefully for fratboy/fratboy-wannabe mindsets. That you're able to find her attractive too is just icing on the cake for BioWare.

BioWare's full-bore enthusiasm for catering to that crowd had everything to do with trying to get it both ways. She's technically not a romance, so Hudson could truthfully state that there were still no "lesbian or gay" romances in ME2. And of course, she isn't male so of course BioWare can maintain ME's distance from male homosexuality.

That leads me back to Hendel. I doubt even that author would be so low as to try and claim the character was any outreach for teh gheyz. Although, his reticence might have more to do with BioWare's policy of generally keeping silent on this "non-issue," not actual respect towards queer people on his part. He could've just as easily refrained from penning cop-outs in the first place.

Modifié par Eromenos, 24 avril 2011 - 06:28 .

[Ryzaki]

makenzieshepard wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

makenzieshepard wrote...

Hell at this point I'd be happy if they just didn't get gender specific in the romance dialogues and made sure to record male and female shepard for the complete romance and dummied out the s/s stuff. Let the mods put it back in. Why yes I am a PC player

Not fair to the consolities.

But really at this point I'd take anything. 

They made their choices.  And anyone could've gotten this* if they really wanted it!

I know some modding can be done on the XBOX 360, maybe it wouldn't be so impossible or they could make it as easy as possible and not lock things out on purpose.... PS3 would be up fudge creek without a popsicle stick though.

*Except where prohibited

That computer looks awesome. I tried to get it but I lost.  

Yeah poor PS3 people. They're completely boinked. 

[Vormaerin]

Eromenos wrote...

In all seriousness, I don't hold it against you for liking her. I hold it against BioWare for exploiting her while they refuse to "lower and degrade"

Lower and degrade?   Get real.  You can take your puritanism and shove it.    You can make a good case about those pole dancers in the clubs, though it really depends on questions about the circumstances we don't know the answer to. 

But how the hell is sexy dancing more degrading than any other sexual activity with one's partner?

[Eromenos]

Targy90 wrote...

Eromenos wrote...

Targy90 wrote...

Eromenos wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...

Erom: No, you're just droning on with the same stuff time and time again without even understanding that you aren't debating: you're raving. Read my points. Understand them instead of just using them as a trigger to wanting to hit the post button again.

All you're doing is continually saying: You have had a certain experience, therefore everyone that disagrees with you must be homophobes.

Actually, you're the one who's been continually raving about vague, generalized depictions of queer people supposedly crying victim over nothing. You feel that our issues will mean your supposed victimhood gets no attention.

I'm still wondering as to what exactly constitutes "real homophobia" to you? To me it includes the "smallest" of things like exclusion and marginalization. Intentional or unintentional, they are both the same. And we get that in ME. But it seems like someone has to die first, the way Matthew Shepard or Gwen Araujo did, before you can register "true victims." If even then?

I'm also still waiting for you to supply even a specific instance of being called a "racist" by a non-white person over something you felt was overblown at their end. You complained about it so much, yet you can't dredge up an example? At least try to make up something that happened "between your friends." So much easier though, isn't it, for you to just paint race-relations in a way that makes you look the martyr. You're such a good person. You're "not racist." You're "not homophobic." If we would all just adopt a "positive attitude" the world be so good. So good!

That is neither conductive for debate, nor is it conductive for the general experience of people when trying to discuss with you. In essence, you are worse than that which you claim others to be by your statements alone.

Actually. come to think of it, you keep stating things as if you think everyone that disagrees with you as being 'out to get you', purely because they disagree with you. There's a word for that, it's called 'paranoid'.

This is called a person with unearned privileges like you labeling someone like me as "crazy" in a tiresome attempt to discredit my challenges against the house of cards that you hide behind. And for what? To guard the "purity and integrity" of some pixels?

Please, do keep rambling. Keep playing that minority-card, someone is bound to care.
Good luck.

Please, do keep being lazy and dismissive. I like it more when opponents can no longer find words to address my points. Then they default onto "crazy person" to try and isolate or intimidate people like me.

I think he does need a better advocate than you, though. Together you're presenting two sound-bytes rather than just his one, but does not mean either of you has ever learned to move beyond, "You're nobody." I'm sure usually that gets you where you want by pinning someone else. Try again.

BioWare cares so much about those sad and deprived straight male needs. You barely need to remind them. Good for you!

So this happens to you often? Could be a pattern.
People do not want to argue with you because it boils down to the same thing everytime.

Indeed, they do end up wishing that they had thought better. "It boils down to the same thing everytime." Personal attacks fly both ways while I continually challenge them to actually defend the holes in their generalized cavalier claims that I have too much and they have too little. But they never do. Case in point.

Modifié par Eromenos, 24 avril 2011 - 06:37 .

[Maugrim]

Vormaerin wrote...

Eromenos wrote...

In all seriousness, I don't hold it against you for liking her. I hold it against BioWare for exploiting her while they refuse to "lower and degrade"

Lower and degrade?   Get real.  You can take your puritanism and shove it.    You can make a good case about those pole dancers in the clubs, though it really depends on questions about the circumstances we don't know the answer to. 

But how the hell is sexy dancing more degrading than any other sexual activity with one's partner?

I may be wrong but I think part of the point Eromenos is trying to make is that not it's not a problem when taken when viewed alone as a single incident.  But as part of the whole where the ME teams has treated non hetero romances with questionable taste there are unfortunate implications.

And look I love Kelly...some of my characters would stay with her if she was promoted as a full alternative romance.

[Eromenos]

Vormaerin wrote...

Eromenos wrote...

In all seriousness, I don't hold it against you for liking her. I hold it against BioWare for exploiting her while they refuse to "lower and degrade"

Lower and degrade?   Get real.  You can take your puritanism and shove it.    You can make a good case about those pole dancers in the clubs, though it really depends on questions about the circumstances we don't know the answer to. 

But how the hell is sexy dancing more degrading than any other sexual activity with one's partner?

How about you "get real," and read through the rest of my post before you jump to conclusions. Oh, wait, so sorry to dis your girlfriend. Need to get that out of the way first.

I used "lower and degrade" in air-quotes. That was to describe the attitude which male gamers commonly paste onto any male who acts like Kelly does. They see it as "natural and sexy" when an hourglass female with a pornified face does what she does. They see it as "lowering and degrading" when a male of any kind does it. Misogynistic and homophobic double-standard right there. The fact that you're able to like her because you like her doesn't bother me. The fact that BioWare committed to making her primarily as a toy, in addition to maintaining their hypocrisy regarding females and queer people, is what bothers me. I figured you would see the issue wasn't even about you or her, or you and her together, but ech.

I hope this helps you understand my point about her being singled-out for something that society often thinks men are "too good" to be doing.

ETA: What Makenzieshepard just said as well. :happy:

Modifié par Eromenos, 24 avril 2011 - 06:53 .

[Vormaerin]

makenzieshepard wrote...

But as part of the whole where the ME teams has treated non hetero romances with questionable taste there are unfortunate implications.

While its fun to quote Casey's silly "Liara's not gay" thing, there are plenty of statements by the other devs indicating that they are not making any effort to create such distance.  What "questionable taste" is there otherwise?  Unless you just mean the absence entirely.

They did consciously try to steer ME2 down less controversial paths so they could garner a more mainstream audience, which is unfortunate.  But I don't think its something they need to be castigated for, though I would like the decision changed.  Bioware is certainly not the problem in this equation.  The audience is.

[Targy90]

Indeed, they do end up wishing that they had thought better. "It boils down to the same thing everytime." Personal attacks fly both ways while I continually challenge them to actually defend the holes in their generalized cavalier claims that I have too much and they have too little. But they never do. Case in point.

You do? The only point you seem to elaborate on is how everyone is a homophobe and package it into a wall of text every time.
But for the sake of this thread I am comfortable if you wish to believe that your words are pure gold and hey, everyone who dares disagree simply can't handle the truth.

[Maugrim]

Vormaerin wrote...

makenzieshepard wrote...

But as part of the whole where the ME teams has treated non hetero romances with questionable taste there are unfortunate implications.

While its fun to quote Casey's silly "Liara's not gay" thing, there are plenty of statements by the other devs indicating that they are not making any effort to create such distance.  What "questionable taste" is there otherwise?  Unless you just mean the absence entirely.

They did consciously try to steer ME2 down less controversial paths so they could garner a more mainstream audience, which is unfortunate.  But I don't think its something they need to be castigated for, though I would like the decision changed.  Bioware is certainly not the problem in this equation.  The audience is.

But there isn't an abscence entirely.  We do have Kelly, femshep can have the same experiances with her that maleshep does.  But according to the devs Shepard is not gay/bi .  Kelly may not be a full LI but she isn't some alien space babe, she is unquestionably a human female just like FemShep.  Maybe this partcular case could come down to sexism, that a female Shepard is not a real Shepard but that's probably worse in my estimation.  And I don't think the audience is as much of a problem as it might appear to be.  The crowd may be younger male but as the studies show the younger you are the less homophobic you are likely to be.  Bioware needs to trust their fans and ignore the loud voices of those who object due to their prejudices, admitted or not.

Modifié par makenzieshepard, 24 avril 2011 - 07:18 .

[Vormaerin]

Eromenos wrote...

I hope this helps you understand my point about her being singled-out for something that society often thinks men are "too good" to be doing.

No, frankly, it doesn't.  But then, in my experience, male exotic dancers have a lot more respect than their female counterparts.   The reasons for that aren't especially edifying, but its still the case.    So, I think you completely missed with that attempt at at a point.

And the gratuitous barb was just that.   It certainly didn't help your case any.  I could care less if you insult Kelly Chambers, though I may continue to care about the implications of your choice of insult.

Now, if you insult Jaheira... well, then you'll die.   Sorry, just the way it.

[Vormaerin]

makenzieshepard wrote...
But according to the devs Shepard is not gay/bi .  Kelly may not be a full LI but she isn't some alien space babe, she is unquestionably a human female just like FemShep. 

According to *a* Dev.   There are other devs who've said otherwise.  They've even been quoted in this thread.   The absence I was referring to is gay males specifically.  But even with the female relationships, what is in questionable taste there?

Modifié par Vormaerin, 24 avril 2011 - 07:29 .

[Destroy Raiden_]

But are these devs specifically saying weather it's M or F shep they talk about. Why doesn't someone ask the head of BW instead of just assuming Msheps gay? I think it was him who said shep wasn't anyway and those supposed other devs saying yes was the question on general shep or was it on f shep cuz we know she is or can be. And sense she is the catch all add in anyhow BW probably thought to allow her to be gay because like her being a woman adds bonus points to women gamers her being gay adds points to the gay gamers its just Mshep was never made to be it sense he's the main and that's why these forms keep popping up they want him not her.

[Maugrim]

Vormaerin wrote...

makenzieshepard wrote...
But according to the devs Shepard is not gay/bi .  Kelly may not be a full LI but she isn't some alien space babe, she is unquestionably a human female just like FemShep. 

According to *a* Dev.   There are other devs who've said otherwise.  They've even been quoted in this thread.   The absence I was referring to is gay males specifically.  But even with the female relationships, what is in questionable taste there?

It was not "a dev" it was 3 Casey Hudson, plus Ray and Greg the founders of Bioware.  While Ray and Greg don't do day to day stuff on ME they are consulted and do have final say so if they choose to wield that power.  Casey is the last word on the ME team, full stop.  You say it's been said otherwise in this thread and if so I'd be welcome to hear it but if it's not more recent and from someone who actually has some sort of leadership power in the franchise it's not exactly going to be a strong proof.  I happen to disagree with them , most of my Shepard's are gay but that means exactly nada outside of my personal head-canon.

BG: Non existent romances IDK about any questionable NPC stuff because I haven't played
BGII: Only hetero romance options.  Not sure about interactions among NPC's haven't played.
NWN: All I know is there was at least one option, don't know if it was good bad or otherwise my impression was that NWN was never strong on the included story.
KOTOR: Removal of a lesbian character.  Bonus points for putting it in, minus points for removing it even iif under duress.
Jade Empire:  Improvements but still some problems here. As a gay male PC you have to specifically deny the two female PC's in a harsh manner to have have a chance with the bi male LI.  Same for a lesbian PC and the male LI.
ME: Discount Lesbians Bioware makes up the majority talk in the video game section.  No male option
DAO: Pretty good, just limited option.  If you don't like Leli/Zev you are SOL
ME2: See ME1 just worse!

Bioware is totally awesome overall, they are much more progressive than any major studio in the industry.  That doesn't mean they do things right all the time. Carrot and stick I say!

Modifié par makenzieshepard, 24 avril 2011 - 07:49 .

[Wittand25]

makenzieshepard wrote...

It was not "a dev" it was 3 Casey Hudson, plus Ray and Greg the founders of Bioware.  While Ray and Greg don't do day to day stuff on ME they are consulted and do have final say so if they choose to wield that power.  Casey is the last word on the ME team, full stop.  You say it's been said otherwise in this thread and if so I'd be welcome to hear it but if it's not more recent and from someone who actually has some sort of leadership power in the franchise it's not exactly going to be a strong proof.  I happen to disagree with them , most of my Shepard's are gay but that means exactly nada outside of my personal head-canon.

Actually none of them ever said that Shepard is straight if I recall correctly.
When during interviews they were questioned about the lack of m/m content in the series so far they were obviously unprepared because none of them expected the question and made stuff up on the spot (predefined, third person narrative; PG13 sex scenes , ....). 
If anything I hope that they realised from the interviews, the Fight for the love group and the reception of the non- straight romances in the DA games that the audience for this content is not so small after all and that an m/m and f/f romance in ME3 would be welcomed.

[1490]

Eromenos wrote...

How about you "get real," and read through the rest of my post before you jump to conclusions. Oh, wait, so sorry to dis your girlfriend. Need to get that out of the way first.

I used "lower and degrade" in air-quotes. That was to describe the attitude which male gamers commonly paste onto any male who acts like Kelly does. They see it as "natural and sexy" when an hourglass female with a pornified face does what she does. They see it as "lowering and degrading" when a male of any kind does it. Misogynistic and homophobic double-standard right there. The fact that you're able to like her because you like her doesn't bother me. The fact that BioWare committed to making her primarily as a toy, in addition to maintaining their hypocrisy regarding females and queer people, is what bothers me. I figured you would see the issue wasn't even about you or her, or you and her together, but ech.

I hope this helps you understand my point about her being singled-out for something that society often thinks men are "too good" to be doing.

ETA: What Makenzieshepard just said as well. :happy:

I get you man.  You have the Asari, an all-female race who can have sex with anything and embrace their ravenous, bisexuality. Of course theres the "but theyre monogendered, so its ok,"  argument, but I watched the bonus disc content from ME 1 when the artists were designing Asari, and the lead artist was specifically told by Bioware to "design an all-female race of super-hot space babes." Though I do like the Asari backstory and history, I feel like the all-female thing was added more as a catering to male players" lesbian fantasies.

Now I dont necessarily disagree with that: I think sexuality is over-censored and incorrectly called shameful in our society.  However, I see where youre coming from in seeing that there are lots of bisexual female options in Mass Effect, because "lesbiuns r hawt!!", but no bisexual male options, likely because the (mostly straight) majority male fanbase would find it either disgusting or degrading to the male characters.   Its even seen this way in real life: if a woman kisses another woman, she"s only "bi-curious," but if a man kisses another man under any circumstances, he"s GAY.  Its not very fair, but Bioware-EA are there first to turn a profit, and gay-bi (or maybe even "tolerant" straight players) are still the minority; they"d rather risk upsetting the minority than the majority.

[catabuca]

1490 wrote...


I get you man.  You have the Asari, an all-female race who can have sex with anything and embrace their ravenous, bisexuality. Of course theres the "but theyre monogendered, so its ok,"  argument, but I watched the bonus disc content from ME 1 when the artists were designing Asari, and the lead artist was specifically told by Bioware to "design an all-female race of super-hot space babes." Though I do like the Asari backstory and history, I feel like the all-female thing was added more as a catering to male players" lesbian fantasies.

Now I dont necessarily disagree with that: I think sexuality is over-censored and incorrectly called shameful in our society.  However, I see where youre coming from in seeing that there are lots of bisexual female options in Mass Effect, because "lesbiuns r hawt!!", but no bisexual male options, likely because the (mostly straight) majority male fanbase would find it either disgusting or degrading to the male characters.   Its even seen this way in real life: if a woman kisses another woman, she"s only "bi-curious," but if a man kisses another man under any circumstances, he"s GAY.  Its not very fair, but Bioware-EA are there first to turn a profit, and gay-bi (or maybe even "tolerant" straight players) are still the minority; they"d rather risk upsetting the minority than the majority.

Or, here's a thought ... perhaps the actual majority (the ones who don't post on this forum) wouldn't give a damn either way and would just get on with playing the game they love.

[Centauri2002]

catabuca wrote...

Or, here's a thought ... perhaps the actual majority (the ones who don't post on this forum) wouldn't give a damn either way and would just get on with playing the game they love.

I think the majority of players don't give a damn either way. They don't care if the same sex romances are there and they don't care if they're not. It's a fairly vocal minority that are offended by it, just as it's a fairly vocal minority that will be affected by the inclusion of it.

[Ryzaki]

centauri2002 wrote...

catabuca wrote...

Or, here's a thought ... perhaps the actual majority (the ones who don't post on this forum) wouldn't give a damn either way and would just get on with playing the game they love.

I think the majority of players don't give a damn either way. They don't care if the same sex romances are there and they don't care if they're not. It's a fairly vocal minority that are offended by it, just as it's a fairly vocal minority that will be affected by the inclusion of it.

Yeah most of the time reviewers mention one line about the romances and move it along to the more importan things. (Hell even most of the scathing reviews of DA2 don't tend (none of the ones I've read mentioned it) even mention the "OMG ALL OF THEM ARE BISEXUAL!" as a problem).

Modifié par Ryzaki, 24 avril 2011 - 09:38 .

[Vormaerin]

The audience issue isn't with the people who play the games per se. The vast majority don't care. Its with getting the games into Walmarts and other mainstream outlets where parents will buy it for their kids. ME2 has an "M" rating anyway, so I think Walmarts are out already. But when they talk about wanting a PG13 style game, that's what they are talking about. Not about those of us who are buying our own games with our own money.

Modifié par Vormaerin, 25 avril 2011 - 12:15 .

[Centauri2002]

Ryzaki wrote...
Yeah most of the time reviewers mention one line about the romances and move it along to the more importan things. (Hell even most of the scathing reviews of DA2 don't tend (none of the ones I've read mentioned it) even mention the "OMG ALL OF THEM ARE BISEXUAL!" as a problem).

You know what really baffles me about the reaction to DA2? The fact that some people were aghast that the majority of LIs were bisexual and yet didn't seem to notice the extreme gore and violence in it. On one hand we have a perfectly natural act between two consenting adults, on the other we have murder and violence. Hmm...

Modifié par centauri2002, 25 avril 2011 - 12:58 .

[Vormaerin]

Because the reaction to that ridiculous gore was already in place from DA:O. That wasn't a /new/ thing. No one expected anythign else from the franchise. Just unclick the 'persistant gore' button, install the "no exploding bodies" mod in your override file, and carry on. Same as with the 1st game in the franchise.

[Centauri2002]

Vormaerin wrote...

Because the reaction to that ridiculous gore was already in place from DA:O. That wasn't a /new/ thing. No one expected anythign else from the franchise. Just unclick the 'persistant gore' button, install the "no exploding bodies" mod in your override file, and carry on. Same as with the 1st game in the franchise.

It still stinks of double standard to me. Besides, there were s/s romances in DA:O and people were still kicking up a fuss over one line of dialogue from Anders.