912 réponses à ce sujet

[Vormaerin]

Well, they kicked up a fuss over Zevran too. There's an element of the population that can't stand being hit on by a gay guy, end of story.

Its made worse in DA2 because these same players tend not to learn the game mechanics. So they think "rivalry" points are bad, which they aren't. They also think "OMG, I am totally screwed if I don't take Anders because he's the only healer". Which is also not true unless you are playing on Insane and, even then, its only true of certain fights.

I completed the game on Hard as a warrior hawke and never used him except on his personal quests and the high dragon (which I fought while there for his loyalty quest anyway).

Anyway, so some cootie laden gay guy is hitting on them, they get punished for turning him down, and then they have to bring the queer along if they want healing. Its obviously a massive Bioware conspiracy against their virtue.

[Centauri2002]

It's clear what BioWare are trying to say: Be nice to the gay guys or they won't heal you.

A nefarious message indeed.

[Vormaerin]

if they'd just made anders an elf, it would have been okay. Because then there wouldn't have been any /real/ gayness in the game and we all could have been happy.

[Centauri2002]

Vormaerin wrote...

if they'd just made anders an elf, it would have been okay. Because then there wouldn't have been any /real/ gayness in the game and we all could have been happy.

That's probably not far from the truth. All elves are gay anyway, right? >.>

[Maugrim]

Vormaerin wrote...

 Its obviously a massive Bioware conspiracy against their virtue.

Well they certainly stole my virtue.  I mean come on Isabela, Zevran, Leliana ....how could my F!Cousland resist such an offer!

[Centauri2002]

makenzieshepard wrote...

Vormaerin wrote...

 Its obviously a massive Bioware conspiracy against their virtue.

Well they certainly stole my virtue.  I mean come on Isabela, Zevran, Leliana ....how could my F!Cousland resist such an offer!

It's certainly difficult to remain virtuous in the face of all that... choice.

Wait, does sexual stamina count as a virtue? :innocent:

[Vormaerin]

I never actually had the 4way option. My fCousland either wasn't done with Leilana's quest or I didn't say the mean thing afterwards, I forget which.

Someday, Bioware is going to put a male romantic lead who isn't a emo git into one of their games and my female characters won't have to feel like total losers for hanging out with the guy.

Granted, Zevrin's not an emo git, but I have a hard time taking him seriously as a "love" interest.

Actually, Jacob doesn't seem to be emo but the way femShep sounded talking to him made me ill, so I avoided him, so I don't know.

Modifié par Vormaerin, 25 avril 2011 - 01:49 .

[Johanna]

makenzieshepard wrote...

Psst...hey you! Yes you! We know that when your crying "Boo hoo Anders hit on me and oh I want some LI's to be straight, bi and gay" that you are lying about wanting bi/gay LI's.

Because the very day they have a fullly realized LI is gay that you end up wanting to romance with your straight PC... You're going to run crying and howling on the forums in a way that the entire gay and gay friendly community could never hope to match.

And I will laugh. Oh by all the gods will I revel in the delicious tears. I'm going to troll so hard that the mods will have to ban me and it will be worth it. Oh go ahead and deny it now, play your innocence cards, I know we are years away from this at best. Denial ain't just and river in Egypt and trust me I know what a closet looks like and if you were any deeper in it you'd be in Narnia dancing with the fairies.

I'm Commander Shepard, and this is my favorite quote on the forum.

[SalsaDMA]

centauri2002 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
Yeah most of the time reviewers mention one line about the romances and move it along to the more importan things. (Hell even most of the scathing reviews of DA2 don't tend (none of the ones I've read mentioned it) even mention the "OMG ALL OF THEM ARE BISEXUAL!" as a problem).

You know what really baffles me about the reaction to DA2? The fact that some people were aghast that the majority of LIs were bisexual and yet didn't seem to notice the extreme gore and violence in it. On one hand we have a perfectly natural act between two consenting adults, on the other we have murder and violence. Hmm...

Just want to point out that you are wrong to so easily use the wording that it is 'natural'.

Aside from some of the religious people that could be easily asumed to want to protest against such a thing with the wording of "it's not natural!" (and don't even try to tell me you never heard that one from them) you also have the technical implication of it not being a genetically viable path for the species to persue in earnest, as procreation is... impaired... in that direction without 'help' from outside sources.

Happens enough that it's common knowledge that it exists? yes.
'Natural'? Debatable and solely at the discretion of which definition of the word one wishes to use.

[CARL_DF90]

Here's a thought: since there are so many complaining about it, then just don't handle it at all. Less complicated that way and the dev team can concentrate on actual important things, like making sure the story is coherent and doesn't repeat any of the Arrival debacles that we saw, making sure the thing is as bug free as possible. Everything else is a distant second to making this finale as awesome a trilogy closer as possible.

[Centauri2002]

SalsaDMA wrote...

Just want to point out that you are wrong to so easily use the wording that it is 'natural'.

Aside from some of the religious people that could be easily asumed to want to protest against such a thing with the wording of "it's not natural!" (and don't even try to tell me you never heard that one from them) you also have the technical implication of it not being a genetically viable path for the species to persue in earnest, as procreation is... impaired... in that direction without 'help' from outside sources.

Happens enough that it's common knowledge that it exists? yes.
'Natural'? Debatable and solely at the discretion of which definition of the word one wishes to use.

You really want to start that debate? <_<

Let's drop the passing on of genetic material crap, because unless you can insist that you only have sex to procreate, the point is moot. I referring to a pleasurable act between two sexual partners, not baby making. So, yes, natural. I'm not even going to start pointing out the examples of it in the animal kingdom because I've seen this argument so many times and it always ends in the same way.

And then for you to say that the use of natural is solely at the discretion of which definition is being used after telling me I'm wrong...  

[SalsaDMA]

centauri2002 wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...

Just want to point out that you are wrong to so easily use the wording that it is 'natural'.

Aside from some of the religious people that could be easily asumed to want to protest against such a thing with the wording of "it's not natural!" (and don't even try to tell me you never heard that one from them) you also have the technical implication of it not being a genetically viable path for the species to persue in earnest, as procreation is... impaired... in that direction without 'help' from outside sources.

Happens enough that it's common knowledge that it exists? yes.
'Natural'? Debatable and solely at the discretion of which definition of the word one wishes to use.

You really want to start that debate? <_<

Let's drop the passing on of genetic material crap, because unless you can insist that you only have sex to procreate, the point is moot. I referring to a pleasurable act between two sexual partners, not baby making. So, yes, natural. I'm not even going to start pointing out the examples of it in the animal kingdom because I've seen this argument so many times and it always ends in the same way.

And then for you to say that the use of natural is solely at the discretion of which definition is being used after telling me I'm wrong...  

Indeed. You are wrong to asume that you can just fling out the word like that when we both know it is a contested issue. Regardless of what personal opinions about the subject is, everyone knows it  can quickly be a heated debate on that word alone, therefore it's silly to use a debatable point in the context if you just wanted to illustrate a simple non-debatable point.

Am I making myself clearer here, or do you want to get stuck on the debate of the word itself which I wasn't participating in, but merely pointing out existed?

[Centauri2002]

You can't tell me my opinion is wrong, Salsa. It's an opinion. Just as it's your opinion that it's not necessarily natural. It doesn't make you right. And I couldn't care less that other people find it debatable, my point was about the double standard between sex and violence.

[SalsaDMA]

centauri2002 wrote...

You can't tell me my opinion is wrong, Salsa. It's an opinion. Just as it's your opinion that it's not necessarily natural. It doesn't make you right. And I couldn't care less that other people find it debatable, my point was about the double standard between sex and violence.

I wasn't adressing your opinion. I was adressing your usage of your opinion as if it was a generally accepted term, which it isn't.

To give a comparison:
2 kind of cars exists. Red and blue cars. It is a hotly debated discussion normally which of the 2 cars go faster.
Then, in a discusion about vehicles, you interject the sentence: "Since red cars go faster, I cannot see why... <insert random trailing>"
As in your original case, in this theoretical example you are using your opinion as a basis as if it was an uncontested fact, which it isn't. Therefore your usage of it, to try and display a non-debatle point is flawed by your very usage of the terms you include. In other words, in a binary perception of 'right/wrong' your sentence becomes wrong because it includes an error in itself: using a debated point to try and make a non-debatable point.

Am I making myself understandable this time?

[Centauri2002]

SalsaDMA wrote...

I wasn't adressing your opinion. I was adressing your usage of your opinion as if it was a generally accepted term, which it isn't.

To give a comparison:
2 kind of cars exists. Red and blue cars. It is a hotly debated discussion normally which of the 2 cars go faster.
Then, in a discusion about vehicles, you interject the sentence: "Since red cars go faster, I cannot see why... <insert random trailing>"
As in your original case, in this theoretical example you are using your opinion as a basis as if it was an uncontested fact, which it isn't. Therefore your usage of it, to try and display a non-debatle point is flawed by your very usage of the terms you include. In other words, in a binary perception of 'right/wrong' your sentence becomes wrong because it includes an error in itself: using a debated point to try and make a non-debatable point.

Am I making myself understandable this time?

It's only because you believe it is a debatable point that you believe the statement is flawed. That's where your opinion is colouring your view. Also, you're assuming I was talking about homosexual sex, when I wasn't. I mentioned bisexual in the previous sentence, yes, but you jumped to that conclusion yourself.

To me, it's natural. Statement of fact. So I see nothing wrong with saying as such. Leaving procreation out of it, sex for pleasure is a natural act between two consenting adults. Since characters weren't trying to make babies in DA2, I don't see the problem with that statement.

Now let's get back on-topic.

Modifié par centauri2002, 25 avril 2011 - 12:34 .

[Eromenos]

What did I miss? Oh.

Targy90 wrote...

Indeed, they do end up wishing that they had thought better. "It boils down to the same thing everytime." Personal attacks fly both ways while I continually challenge them to actually defend the holes in their generalized cavalier claims that I have too much and they have too little. But they never do. Case in point.

You do? The only point you seem to elaborate on is how everyone is a homophobe and package it into a wall of text every time.
But for the sake of this thread I am comfortable if you wish to believe that your words are pure gold and hey, everyone who dares disagree simply can't handle the truth.

You should commiserate over drinks with that guy. You and he always are more than eager to try painting me as someone who calls "everybody a homophobe" to label me "crazy and unreasonable" if I don't play nice with the kind of patronizing str8 person who makes straight people look bad in general. Ah, but yes. The straight people who I'm grateful to, the ones who welcome the DA2 model, they don't count in your view. They must be queer themselves! Something tells me that, as allies, they would actually take that as a compliment in stride.

You and the other person like to pretend that your dear establishment values are on "equal footing" with marginialized people so that you can throw put-downs and passive-aggressive whitewashing statements, then cry hardest about being victims yourselves. I.e., your kind is so used to setting the tone, the rules, and the stage for "debates" from a position of unjustified and hidden advantage which you deny even exists. Poor, sad. Not to worry, I'm sure the ME crew still looks out for you. They always have. But, you know me. Of course I would say they gave you lots.

My thoughts are clear-cut and in writing in this thread. It is not my posts that are overly dense; it is your tired proprietary attitudes that are intentionally dense out of homophobic disgust towards romantic NPC models in DA2 that rightfully devalued the wrongfully conventional "ideal" of straightness trying to dominate the many others.

Modifié par Eromenos, 25 avril 2011 - 01:17 .

[Eromenos]

Vormaerin wrote...

Eromenos wrote...

I hope this helps you understand my point about her being singled-out for something that society often thinks men are "too good" to be doing.

No, frankly, it doesn't.  But then, in my experience, male exotic dancers have a lot more respect than their female counterparts.   The reasons for that aren't especially edifying, but its still the case.    So, I think you completely missed with that attempt at at a point.

And the gratuitous barb was just that.   It certainly didn't help your case any.  I could care less if you insult Kelly Chambers, though I may continue to care about the implications of your choice of insult.

Now, if you insult Jaheira... well, then you'll die.   Sorry, just the way it.

Male exotic dancers get more cred? Uh...where have you been? Oh, wait. Male fantasy.

We know that female exotic dancers outnumber their male counterparts thanks to misogynistic culture. More females resort to it because there is societal pressure to sell themselves even in the smallest of ways that is disguised as "justifiable" for women, but really it is to make men feel better than women. Given so, we think that the males who "stoop" to this profession must be raking it in and calling their own shots? Do the fewer "prostidudes" by comparison get treated well by "insecure female customers" in private engagements and "egalitarian gay bars," that they're not manhandled and cheated, not possibly driven to this out of need, into a role that gains them no respect in an industrialized culture with double-standards and twisted views of sexuality? Let's stop pretending.

Females get more of the "chivalrous pity" and fake-respect, while males get more of the open contempt. That is from both broader society and direct clientele. Females, males, and trans dancers get all of those treatments, but no male (in America, at least) is respected or pitied for "lowering" himself. ME2 was derivative and gutless for exploiting and perpetuating it. I don't have high hopes for ME3.

The Human Screensaver is a secretary who does nothing that EDI couldn't do in her place. Besides doing the other things that you actually valued her for. No matter; Kelly's appeal shouldn't surprise me given the combination of being a pornified unwanted flirt, a naive mouthpiece for TIM's cause, and a throwback to Katy Perry's one-trick-pony. 20+ years later, and we're still stuck with Crusher + Troi rolled into a new Uhura package. Singling out the females alone for that is pathetic.

Ah, I see. Despite her...qualities and your appreciation for them, I still pointed out she wasn't made with you in mind as priority. No one likes finding themselves viewed as secondary by anyone.

Modifié par Eromenos, 25 avril 2011 - 02:23 .

[Hyper Cutter]

I swear to God, it's like fanfiction.net in here...

makenzieshepard wrote...
Because the very day they
have a fullly realized LI is gay that you end up wanting to romance with
your straight PC... You're going to run crying and howling on the
forums in a way that the entire gay and gay friendly community could
never hope to match.

Or they'd just roll a character of that character's preferred gender and that'd be the end of it. Like any sensible player in that situation.

Vormaerin wrote...

*sigh*  Retroactive continuity would require that they said "No, Leilana did not die despite what you think happened."   There is no evidence yet that that is what will occur.   "Leilana died and something strange happened later" is not a retcon.  Its something strange happening later.  It might be good, it might be stupid.  But its not retroactive.

"You thought a character died but it turned out they were saved by (insert deus ex machina of choice)" is still a retcon (a favorite of DC and Marvel, I believe).

Vormaerin wrote...

Who said they did? Do you just exist
to defeat strawmen of your own devising? Anyway, towards the
fanservice comment, In the Gamezone back in January, David Gaider made
the comment "From what we get from the fans, there were a lot of people
that the romances were more important to them than the story."

He was discussing DA:Origins, btw.

That explains so much about what happened to DA2...

Eromenos wrote...

And you? Spell it out. Because you're str8,
you would "get to be Shepard?" Yes, it doesn't surprise me that you'd
look for any method to play up to rules that BioWare established to
benefit only your kind.

You idiot, he' saying in the ME universe we'd all be normal people, which is the truth.



And stop being a condescending ass while you're at it.

makenzieshepard wrote...

Jade Empire:  Improvements but
still some problems here. As a gay male PC you have to specifically deny
the two female PC's in a harsh manner to have have a chance with the bi
male LI.  Same for a lesbian PC and the male LI.

How is that a "problem"? That's pretty much the perfect way to implement it.

Modifié par Hyper Cutter, 25 avril 2011 - 02:48 .

[Maugrim]

Hyper Cutter wrote...

Or they'd just roll a character of that character's preferred gender and that'd be the end of it. Like any sensible player in that situation.

The key word in that sentence is sensible.  I wanted Morrigan to be bisexual but though I'm a PC gamer I have never once used the available mods to romance her as a female.  Now her and my male elf mage...  It was, fairly clearly addressed to the people who have been whining so hard against even sharing LI's that the Lead Writer David Gaider wrote a reply tackling their majority privilege that was picked by the mainstream videogame media.  You think these people are going to be quiet when when the day comes that they can't even partake?! No /Sten

makenzieshepard wrote...

Jade Empire:  Improvements but still some problems here. As a gay male PC you have to specifically deny the two female PC's in a harsh manner to have have a chance with the bi male LI.  Same for a lesbian PC and the male LI.

Hyper Cutter wrote...
How is that a "problem"? That's pretty much the perfect way to implement it.

No not really, hiding s/s options because of homophobes isn't a good thing.  I mean it's better than not having it but lets not lie and call it good. Because it has Unfortunate Implications  To quote from that page "Important Note: Just because a work has Unfortunate Implications does not mean the author was thinking of it that way. In fact, that's the point of it being unfortunate."  I was too nice apparently to the male LI on my first playthrough and by not shutting down his romance I missed out on the fact that there was even a romance option for my lesbian character.  I got my princess on the next run though!  The ideas of hiding your gays, token gays and burying your gays aren't listen on TVTropes for no reason, their is a long history of them and Bioware has used those tropes in the past and not always for good.

Bioware is one of it not the very best major videogames studios when it comes to the portrayal of queer characters.  I will praise them for it when they are right and I will call them on it when they are wrong.  One must also remember that Bioware is not a single monolithic entity.  There are different teams that do mix and commingle but in the end the DA team vs the ME team are very different beasts and it shows for god and for bad  for both..

Modifié par makenzieshepard, 25 avril 2011 - 06:26 .

[KawaiiKatie]

Sexuality is a spectrum, not a toggle.

[ShadyKat]

Keep the gay stuff in the DA series.

[AngelicMachinery]

ShadyKat wrote...

Keep the gay stuff in the DA series.

Oh wow,  that's like... your oppinion man.

[Maugrim]

ShadyKat wrote...

Keep the gay stuff in the DA series.

I said I was going to use this at the earliest oppurtunity and so I shall...

[Eromenos]

1490 wrote...

Eromenos wrote...

How about you "get real," and read through the rest of my post before you jump to conclusions. Oh, wait, so sorry to dis your girlfriend. Need to get that out of the way first.

I used "lower and degrade" in air-quotes. That was to describe the attitude which male gamers commonly paste onto any male who acts like Kelly does. They see it as "natural and sexy" when an hourglass female with a pornified face does what she does. They see it as "lowering and degrading" when a male of any kind does it. Misogynistic and homophobic double-standard right there. The fact that you're able to like her because you like her doesn't bother me. The fact that BioWare committed to making her primarily as a toy, in addition to maintaining their hypocrisy regarding females and queer people, is what bothers me. I figured you would see the issue wasn't even about you or her, or you and her together, but ech.

I hope this helps you understand my point about her being singled-out for something that society often thinks men are "too good" to be doing.

ETA: What Makenzieshepard just said as well. :happy:

I get you man.  You have the Asari, an all-female race who can have sex with anything and embrace their ravenous, bisexuality. Of course theres the "but theyre monogendered, so its ok,"  argument, but I watched the bonus disc content from ME 1 when the artists were designing Asari, and the lead artist was specifically told by Bioware to "design an all-female race of super-hot space babes." Though I do like the Asari backstory and history, I feel like the all-female thing was added more as a catering to male players" lesbian fantasies.

Now I dont necessarily disagree with that: I think sexuality is over-censored and incorrectly called shameful in our society.  However, I see where youre coming from in seeing that there are lots of bisexual female options in Mass Effect, because "lesbiuns r hawt!!", but no bisexual male options, likely because the (mostly straight) majority male fanbase would find it either disgusting or degrading to the male characters.   Its even seen this way in real life: if a woman kisses another woman, she"s only "bi-curious," but if a man kisses another man under any circumstances, he"s GAY.  Its not very fair, but Bioware-EA are there first to turn a profit, and gay-bi (or maybe even "tolerant" straight players) are still the minority; they"d rather risk upsetting the minority than the majority.

You nailed it. :happy:

But let us agree to disagree on one thing; I have always seen the point you just made regarding BioWare's reasons, and I've never forgotten it. BioWare should always pursue their bottom-line, but that's no excuse for them to be hypocrites. Yet by doing so they open themselves to attack. We've both pointed out that the F/F going on in ME is exploitation. Their habit in this has continued despite queer gamers' and allies' constant requests/demands for consideration and respect. All we get from BioWare is silent dismissal and continued marginalization.

I'm glad you agreed where I said that any sexualization of males beyond the narrow, confined, and rigid depictions of gruff bravado and heterosexuality gets treated as "unworthy" by homophobic and misogynistic attitudes. It's thanks to the ME2 crew catering to such attitudes that female characters get singled out to be toys, whereas the male characters are "too good" for that. It's analogous for how too many mainstream gamers wish to maintain their own deathgrip on the status quo.

Modifié par Eromenos, 29 avril 2011 - 09:43 .

[Eromenos]

Hyper Cutter wrote...

Eromenos wrote...

And you? Spell it out. Because you're str8,
you would "get to be Shepard?" Yes, it doesn't surprise me that you'd
look for any method to play up to rules that BioWare established to
benefit only your kind.

You idiot, he' saying in the ME universe we'd all be normal people, which is the truth.



And stop being a condescending ass while you're at it.

Please. Don't insult my intelligence. And as for going the low-road, I choose to because my patience for homophobic trolls and homophobic apologists is at 0.

My back-and-forth with the other person had to do with him contending that gayness/queerness should play no part in ME (besides exploited lipstick-lesbians). Thus, only those "acceptable" for mainstream culture were worthy, and somehow even a sign of great pains for our sake. Yeah, no. It's only a canned script I'm more than familiar with facing. There's always more than one person in these kinds of arguments that would say a hero of the galaxy cannot be queer, his/her followers shouldn't be queer, and certainly none of them should "broadcast" it.

Modifié par Eromenos, 29 avril 2011 - 09:36 .