912 réponses à ce sujet

[Targy90]

makenzieshepard wrote...

Targy90 wrote...

Olwydd wrote...

PlumPaul82393 wrote...

Olwydd wrote...
.

isn't it a little contradictory though? First you say nobody has any right to a characters sexuality, then you say is having the options for everyone a bad thing.

Not sure if you got my intent. All I'm saying is that nobody should go around saying that a character is exclusively theirs (i.e. *only* for females or *only* for males), 'cause, well, that's just petty. Opening a character up for PCs of both sexes is the best solution for everyone, because it makes the most people happy, and doesn't arbitrarily exclude anybody. Plus, it's a game. It doesn't have to mimic reality. It's about fun and making the player happy.

We all know Dragon Age 2 made so many players happy.

Generally speaking it did romance wise, excepting the homophobes of course.  Some people would claim that that meta-game people don't like getting the rivalry with Anders but that's a non-starter because 1.) It's in Ander's personality to feel rejected and 2.) There is more than enough friendship points to be earned to make up for any loss if you were honestly going for friendly status and not just making stuff up.

Of course, everyone that doesn't like the fact that every LI is bisexual is a homophobe.
Thanks for claryfing.

[Olwydd]

Targy90 wrote...

We all know Dragon Age 2 made so many players happy.

DA2 made me *very* happy. I wasn't confined to just one romance option, as is usually the case, which was fortunate seeing as Isabella just isn't my type at all.

Plus, I think the whole thing was overblown by a very few vocal forumites, whose opinions are probably not representative of most players as a whole, who likely didn't care.

Modifié par Olwydd, 23 avril 2011 - 05:36 .

[Ryzaki]

Olwydd wrote...

Targy90 wrote...

We all know Dragon Age 2 made so many players happy.

DA2 made me *very* happy. I wasn't confined to just one romance option, as is usually the case, which was fortunate seeing as Isabella just isn't my type at all.

Plus, I think the whole thing was overblown by a very few vocal frumites, whose opniones are probably not representative of most players as a whole, who likely didn't care.

This. 

You know what's the one thing usually not complained about in even the most scathing reviews of DA2? The fact that 4 of the Lis are bisexual. 

Most people don't care. 

As long as I can say no and move on with my life. I don't care. 

[PlumPaul93]

Targy90 wrote...

makenzieshepard wrote...

Targy90 wrote...

Olwydd wrote...

PlumPaul82393 wrote...

Olwydd wrote...
.

isn't it a little contradictory though? First you say nobody has any right to a characters sexuality, then you say is having the options for everyone a bad thing.

Not sure if you got my intent. All I'm saying is that nobody should go around saying that a character is exclusively theirs (i.e. *only* for females or *only* for males), 'cause, well, that's just petty. Opening a character up for PCs of both sexes is the best solution for everyone, because it makes the most people happy, and doesn't arbitrarily exclude anybody. Plus, it's a game. It doesn't have to mimic reality. It's about fun and making the player happy.

We all know Dragon Age 2 made so many players happy.

Generally speaking it did romance wise, excepting the homophobes of course.  Some people would claim that that meta-game people don't like getting the rivalry with Anders but that's a non-starter because 1.) It's in Ander's personality to feel rejected and 2.) There is more than enough friendship points to be earned to make up for any loss if you were honestly going for friendly status and not just making stuff up.

Of course, everyone that doesn't like the fact that every LI is bisexual is a homophobe.
Thanks for claryfing.

yeah that's the issue at hand it seems....

[Clonedzero]

i have absolutely nothing against gay people, but honestly its alittle late to add in gay romances into the series.

we've been with shepard for 2 games now and he's shown no interest in men whatsoever. just seems pretty unrealistic and inconsistent to suddenly make him gay in the third game. the closest thing we have is female shepard being interested in asari, but that doesnt quite count.

i'd have the same issue if he was gay for 2 games then suddenly became straight. it'd be just as weird. i dunno just ruins consistency is all.

[jeweledleah]

jlb524 wrote...

Oh look, this thread again.

jeweledleah wrote...
its not even the fact that Anders was retconed, pardon me "expanded" into being bi, but rather how it was done.  and it was done very very sloppily.  and that 15 rivalry?  its the principle of thing, it doesn't happen years after you know him, it happens practicaly when you just meet him, and you did absolutely nothing to lead him on.   its badly written, plain and simple.

How exactly was it 'sloppy'?

Does he need to wear a "I'm a bisexual" sticker on his forehead in DA:A for it to be legit?

His whole personality rewrite and romantic path was sloppy (and I'm sorry, he hits on female warden but not male warden?  even tough they are technicaly one and the same? he didn't have to have a sticker on his forehead but he was definitely showing very very, and I mean very strong preference for women), he's over dramatic, he doesn't reveal a pretty crutial piece of information to anyone, BUT male Hawke who romances him, spoiler follows, highlight if you wish to see

I'm sorry but don't you think realizing that the man he just had to kill was a former lover, his first in some ways even, woudln't have I don't know, put a whole different light on a situation and explain why he was so torn up by it better, he is annoyed with you for not being interested him after you practicaly just met him, and this is an issue with both male and female Hawke, claiming that his bisexuality being beleivable has anything at all to do with him allowing Justice to share his body is creepy beyond beleive, and oh yeah - he shares his body with a spirit of the fade who likes to take over, his changed voice over actor who sounds like he's about to cry any moment now doesn't help the situation either, and he's practicaly unrecognizable from himself in Awakenings in more ways then just his interest in men.  He gets angry at you for saying you are not interested, but if you say that you are - he pushes you away and goes all, "I'm too dangerous for you, I will only hurt you" - what the hell?  damned if you don't and damned if you do? he could have been written to be less forward, he does mention that he's atracted to the person rather then the gender eventualy - he could have said it earlier instead of getting all pissy and angsty, and oh, I just "loved" the way they explained away his possible death in Awakenings... or Leliana's death for that matter.  Every single other character's romantic subplot, same sex or not - flows more naturaly, in both Origins and DA2.  Anders?  it feels like they were trying to hard to make sure that there's an explanation of why he changed so much - they overdid it. 

Anders wasn't even a romantic interest in Awakenings, so they could have made that transition, his character developent in general - smoother.  they went with a sledgehammer route though.

edited to add.  I don't even care that all 4 of them swing every which way.  its a bit of a stretch, but whatever, we're fightning ogres and sceletors and dragons on every corner here.  its the how that annoys me, personaly

Modifié par jeweledleah, 23 avril 2011 - 05:40 .

[AngelicMachinery]

AerisBru wrote...

(...)
And again you're relying on sterotypes to prove your point. The fact that you don't see this is amusing. People don't run around talking about all the men/women they've slept with just because they're bisexual. Some bisexuals will tend to talk about one gender. Shocking I know. Maybe just maybe Anders bisexuality wasn't relevant in Awakening (guess what? It wasn't). so there's no reason to bring it up. 

My words are amusing? YOU are amusing. 


"Some bisexuals will tend to talk about one gender". Tend to? This isn't about tendencies. He didn't talk ONCE about his interest in men. But he talked a lot about his interest in women. Those are the facts. All the rest are YOUR wishful thinking. 

As a bisexual, part icularly when I'm amongst a group of people I don't really know I tend to not let my own bisexuality show unless I realize people will not get all freaked out and the like. I shouldn't have too,  but,  I'd rather just have things run as smoothly as possible.

[Maugrim]

PlumPaul82393 wrote...

I'd generally agree with this as long as they actually showed signs of being bi/gay in any capacity. But I would disagree if for example ashley was made gay/bi in ME3 that would be wrong not only because she never showed signs of it she just isn't. Also on the reality issue games like DA can get away with it but a game like Mass Effect which to me seems like they try to be realistic can't.

Nothing Ashley said or did  makes it apparent that she isn't bisexual.  Granted I don't think she is bisexual...I do however think she is Shepardsexual, especially given how she acts on Horizon.  The facts are that sexuality is much more fluid and complex than you realize.  Not that this will ever be realized in a game anytime soon.

"My house has many rooms. I occupy but a few. The rest go unvisited." - Lindsay, Queer as Folk

Modifié par makenzieshepard, 23 avril 2011 - 05:42 .

[SalsaDMA]

jlb524 wrote...

PlumPaul82393 wrote...

isn't it a little contradictory though? First you say nobody has any right to a characters sexuality, then you say is having the options for everyone a bad thing.

They are saying more RP options = good.

Limiting them b/c it offends some people = bad.

Let's remove the option to play Renegade b/c I don't like it.

Let's remove the option of having an intelligent debate thread because people ignore what is being said and just go tunnelvision on their own agenda instead, shall we?

Oh sorry. You're already doing that...

[Ryzaki]

@jeweledleah: Where does he hit on the female Warden? Did he hit on her first? Did he spurn the advances of a male Warden? 

Just so I can see what you're arguing.  

his changed voice over actor who sounds like he's about to cry any moment now doesn't help the situation either, and he's practicaly unrecognizable

What? 

...It's hard to take you seriously when you say things like that. 

I agree with him being changed but I think his sexuality has zero to do with that. (more like the botched development of both Anders and Justice and the horrible timeline). 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 23 avril 2011 - 05:54 .

[SalsaDMA]

makenzieshepard wrote...

PlumPaul82393 wrote...

I'd generally agree with this as long as they actually showed signs of being bi/gay in any capacity. But I would disagree if for example ashley was made gay/bi in ME3 that would be wrong not only because she never showed signs of it she just isn't. Also on the reality issue games like DA can get away with it but a game like Mass Effect which to me seems like they try to be realistic can't.

Nothing Ashley said or did  makes it apparent that she isn't bisexual.  Granted I don't think she is bisexual...I do however think she is Shepardsexual, especially given how she acts on Horizon.  The facts are that sexuality is much more fluid and complex than you realize.  Not that this will ever be realized in a game anytime soon.

"My house has many rooms. I occupy but a few. The rest go unvisited." - Lindsay, Queer as Folk

In other words, the concept of 'mere' friendship eludes you?

[Olwydd]

PlumPaul82393 wrote...

I'd generally agree with this as long as they actually showed signs of being bi/gay in any capacity. But I would disagree if for example ashley was made gay/bi in ME3 that would be wrong not only because she never showed signs of it she just isn't. Also on the reality issue games like DA can get away with it but a game like Mass Effect which to me seems like they try to be realistic can't.

Uhm...what? What exactly do you want from them, then? Just because they didn't show signs of it in a previous game doesn't mean that they can't have those feelings. Maybe they didn't feel comfortable coming out at the time, maybe the feelings are only slowly developing. Maybe a lot of things. But I could easily see it happening for any character.

And what is this about realism? Firstly: it's a game; it's not supposes to exactly correlate to reality. Secondly: How is being bisexual not realistic?

[PlumPaul93]

makenzieshepard wrote...

PlumPaul82393 wrote...

I'd generally agree with this as long as they actually showed signs of being bi/gay in any capacity. But I would disagree if for example ashley was made gay/bi in ME3 that would be wrong not only because she never showed signs of it she just isn't. Also on the reality issue games like DA can get away with it but a game like Mass Effect which to me seems like they try to be realistic can't.

Nothing Ashley said or did  makes it apparent that she isn't bisexual.  Granted I don't think she is bisexual...I do however think she is Shepardsexual, especially given how she acts on Horizon.  The facts are that sexuality is much more fluid and complex than you realize.  Not that this will ever be realized in a game anytime soon.

"My house has many rooms. I occupy but a few. The rest go unvisited." - Lindsay, Queer as Folk

It would be ridiculous if they made her gay/bi. Even if she hadn't openly said she is straight only it's pretty obvious she is. Also even though it wouldn't happen if they did make her gay I'd hope they'd give a good explanation for it not just a ooh she's gay now. One character who I could see be gay is kaidan for whatever reason. Always got that vibe when talking to him for some reason

[jlb524]

jeweledleah wrote...
His whole personality rewrite and romantic path was sloppy (and I'm sorry, he hits on female warden but not male warden?  even tough they are technicaly one and the same?

He never hit on my female Warden.  Either way, it's possible he wasn't comfortable experssing interest in males at that time for who knows what reason.

[PlumPaul93]

Olwydd wrote...

PlumPaul82393 wrote...

I'd generally agree with this as long as they actually showed signs of being bi/gay in any capacity. But I would disagree if for example ashley was made gay/bi in ME3 that would be wrong not only because she never showed signs of it she just isn't. Also on the reality issue games like DA can get away with it but a game like Mass Effect which to me seems like they try to be realistic can't.

Uhm...what? What exactly do you want from them, then? Just because they didn't show signs of it in a previous game doesn't mean that they can't have those feelings. Maybe they didn't feel comfortable coming out at the time, maybe the feelings are only slowly developing. Maybe a lot of things. But I could easily see it happening for any character.

And what is this about realism? Firstly: it's a game; it's not supposes to exactly correlate to reality. Secondly: How is being bisexual not realistic?

christ you guys really choose what to read and have blinders on other posts don't you. Sure it's realistic for romance options to be bi, it's not realistic that every romance option is bi.

[Ryzaki]

PlumPaul82393 wrote...

Olwydd wrote...

PlumPaul82393 wrote...

I'd generally agree with this as long as they actually showed signs of being bi/gay in any capacity. But I would disagree if for example ashley was made gay/bi in ME3 that would be wrong not only because she never showed signs of it she just isn't. Also on the reality issue games like DA can get away with it but a game like Mass Effect which to me seems like they try to be realistic can't.

Uhm...what? What exactly do you want from them, then? Just because they didn't show signs of it in a previous game doesn't mean that they can't have those feelings. Maybe they didn't feel comfortable coming out at the time, maybe the feelings are only slowly developing. Maybe a lot of things. But I could easily see it happening for any character.

And what is this about realism? Firstly: it's a game; it's not supposes to exactly correlate to reality. Secondly: How is being bisexual not realistic?

christ you guys really choose what to read and have blinders on other posts don't you. Sure it's realistic for romance options to be bi, it's not realistic that every romance option is bi.

It's not realistic for all the LIs to like Hawke/Warden/PC for half the crap he/she does. 

[Olwydd]

PlumPaul82393 wrote...

It would be ridiculous if they made her gay/bi. Even if she hadn't openly said she is straight only it's pretty obvious she is.

How exactly is it 'obvious'? She never came out and explicitly told Shep she was straight.

[jlb524]

SalsaDMA wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

PlumPaul82393 wrote...

isn't it a little contradictory though? First you say nobody has any right to a characters sexuality, then you say is having the options for everyone a bad thing.

They are saying more RP options = good.

Limiting them b/c it offends some people = bad.

Let's remove the option to play Renegade b/c I don't like it.

Let's remove the option of having an intelligent debate thread because people ignore what is being said and just go tunnelvision on their own agenda instead, shall we?

Oh sorry. You're already doing that...

Nah, I was just clearing up a point made by someone else while also illustrating that feelings of self-entitlement aren't very attractive and are usually selfish.

[Ryzaki]

jlb524 wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...
His whole personality rewrite and romantic path was sloppy (and I'm sorry, he hits on female warden but not male warden?  even tough they are technicaly one and the same?

He never hit on my female Warden.  Either way, it's possible he wasn't comfortable experssing interest in males at that time for who knows what reason.

I don't even think the Male Warden can even hit on him. Maybe Anders didn't want to hit on the Warden without knowing if the Warden was interested. (Not to mention the Warden is his superior). In Hawke's case he's lonely and is more willing to take a risk. 

[Maugrim]

PlumPaul82393 wrote...

It would be ridiculous if they made her gay/bi. Even if she hadn't openly said she is straight only it's pretty obvious she is. Also even though it wouldn't happen if they did make her gay I'd hope they'd give a good explanation for it not just a ooh she's gay now. One character who I could see be gay is kaidan for whatever reason. Always got that vibe when talking to him for some reason

I always got that gay vibe from Ashley...oh that's right, only a straight guys opinion counts when it comes to gay vibes, sorry forgot the rules! <_<

[PlumPaul93]

makenzieshepard wrote...

PlumPaul82393 wrote...

It would be ridiculous if they made her gay/bi. Even if she hadn't openly said she is straight only it's pretty obvious she is. Also even though it wouldn't happen if they did make her gay I'd hope they'd give a good explanation for it not just a ooh she's gay now. One character who I could see be gay is kaidan for whatever reason. Always got that vibe when talking to him for some reason

I always got that gay vibe from Ashley...oh that's right, only a straight guys opinion counts when it comes to gay vibes, sorry forgot the rules! <_<

your waah I'm oppressed act is not only old it is false. Come up with some new material.

[Olwydd]

PlumPaul82393 wrote...

Olwydd wrote...

Uhm...what? What
exactly do you want from them, then? Just because they didn't show
signs of it in a previous game doesn't mean that they can't have those
feelings. Maybe they didn't feel comfortable coming out at the time,
maybe the feelings are only slowly developing. Maybe a lot of things.
But I could easily see it happening for any character.

And what is this about realism? Firstly: it's a game; it's not supposes to exactly correlate to reality. Secondly: How is being bisexual not realistic?

christ
you guys really choose what to read and have blinders on other posts
don't you. Sure it's realistic for romance options to be bi, it's not
realistic that every romance option is bi.

And I could just as easily say that in the future, given that there are perhaps fewer prejudices against showing homosexual tendencies, a great many more people could 'come out' as bisexual. Ultimately, it's irrelevent, The point is to provide an engaging experience for the player character. Who cares if it's a statistical anomaly?

Modifié par Olwydd, 23 avril 2011 - 05:57 .

[Maria Caliban]

yorkj86 wrote...

Heterosexuality precludes asexuality.

No, it doesn't.

Asexuality is a lack of sexual attraction, but heterosexual/homosexual/bisexual all refer to more than sexual attraction.

Technically speaking, asexuality doesn't preclude having sex either.

[Clonedzero]

the problem with it is it'd require rewrites for half the characters which arent consistent with the rest of the series.

male shepard needs to be rewritten, kaidan needs to be rewritten, jacob needs to be rewritten, femshep needs to be rewritten, ashley needs to be rewritten. its insane.

the amount of rewritten and out fo the blue character development required to make gay romances work in ME3 would be so awkward and forced that it'd ruin the entire concept. the absolute only way i could see it working, is if this new guy james sanders is gay making him romancable. other than that i really dont want characters being forced to be bi when there was no indication of it earlier on. just comes accross as cheap forced fanservice.

and i already hated the tali and garrus romances because they were cheap forced fan service as well.

[jeweledleah]

@ Rizaki, you can flirt with Anders in Awakenings as a female warden but not male.  you cannot pursue the relationship, but you can flirt  (spoiler follows) kind of like with Aveline actualy, who is not a full fledged romance option

and ok, fine, his new choice of voice over actor is more of a personal opinion, but his new VO has none of the charm old VO had and in my not so humble opinion, and his voice just sounds so trembly and tragic...  its overwrought, its like those black and white silent movies where they had to over act and have super sharp makeup, because there was no sound and quality of film still left a lot to be desired, except in case of Anders its not necessary.

none of the DA2 characters, LI's or not,  are anywhere near normal, with the notable excpetion of Varric.  but even in that cast of disfunction, Anders still stands out.  I don't think it was necessary and he could have been written in a way that didn't ruffle as many feathers.

 I'm not seeing people complain about Fenris, and I honestly don't think that people are more accepting of his sexuality solely due to him being an elf.

P.S.  you know at this point that I will accept changes to established characters if done well, favorite characters or not, I wrote my own version of how it could be done in ME.  its not the concept that bugs me, at least.  its the execution.