912 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

jeweledleah wrote...

@ Rizaki, you can flirt with Anders in Awakenings as a female warden but not male.  you cannot pursue the relationship, but you can flirt  (spoiler follows) kind of like with Aveline actualy, who is not a full fledged romance option

and ok, fine, his new choice of voice over actor is more of a personal opinion, but his new VO has none of the charm old VO had and in my not so humble opinion, and his voice just sounds so trembly and tragic...  its overwrought, its like those black and white silent movies where they had to over act and have super sharp makeup, because there was no sound and quality of film still left a lot to be desired, except in case of Anders its not necessary.

none of the DA2 characters, LI's or not,  are anywhere near normal, with the notable excpetion of Varric.  but even in that cast of disfunction, Anders still stands out.  I don't think it was necessary and he could have been written in a way that didn't ruffle as many feathers.

 I'm not seeing people complain about Fenris, and I honestly don't think that people are more accepting of his sexuality solely due to him being an elf.

P.S.  you know at this point that I will accept changes to established characters if done well, favorite characters or not, I wrote my own version of how it could be done in ME.  its not the concept that bugs me, at least.  its the execution.

And that doesn'tmake him straight. That just means the male Warden never flirted with him. That says zero about Anders' sexuality. (Well other than him liking women...and being a bisexual kind of requires that). 

His old VO annoyed me so that's personal preference. 

People don't complain about Fenris because Fenris doesn't try to jump on you for being nice. You have to go out of your way to initate a romance with Fenris. I believe someone put it as "you have to drag him kicking and screaming into a romance." that pretty much describes it. 

I don't blame you for being annoyed at he execution. But of all the things wrong with Anders execution it's not his sexuality. Not in the least. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 23 avril 2011 - 06:18 .

[PlumPaul93]

Clonedzero wrote...

the problem with it is it'd require rewrites for half the characters which arent consistent with the rest of the series.

male shepard needs to be rewritten, kaidan needs to be rewritten, jacob needs to be rewritten, femshep needs to be rewritten, ashley needs to be rewritten. its insane.

the amount of rewritten and out fo the blue character development required to make gay romances work in ME3 would be so awkward and forced that it'd ruin the entire concept. the absolute only way i could see it working, is if this new guy james sanders is gay making him romancable. other than that i really dont want characters being forced to be bi when there was no indication of it earlier on. just comes accross as cheap forced fanservice.

and i already hated the tali and garrus romances because they were cheap forced fan service as well.

this is true but sadly people would be more than alright with it because it fits there agenda.

[Maugrim]

Sexuality is not 3 jars labeled straight, bi and gay so stop trying to shove characters into them. This spectrum is a better illustration but is still inadequate.



*ponders where she would place each Bioware LI/Charcter*

Modifié par makenzieshepard, 23 avril 2011 - 06:05 .

[Targy90]

Olwydd wrote...

PlumPaul82393 wrote...

Olwydd wrote...

Uhm...what? What
exactly do you want from them, then? Just because they didn't show
signs of it in a previous game doesn't mean that they can't have those
feelings. Maybe they didn't feel comfortable coming out at the time,
maybe the feelings are only slowly developing. Maybe a lot of things.
But I could easily see it happening for any character.

And what is this about realism? Firstly: it's a game; it's not supposes to exactly correlate to reality. Secondly: How is being bisexual not realistic?

christ
you guys really choose what to read and have blinders on other posts
don't you. Sure it's realistic for romance options to be bi, it's not
realistic that every romance option is bi.

And I could just as easily say that in the future, given that there are perhaps fewer prejudices against showing homosexual tendencies, a great many more people could 'come out' as bisexual. Ultimately, it's irrelevent, The point is to provide an engaging experience for the player character. Who cares if it's a statistical anomaly?

Who cares? I sure do; I find that this, amongst many things, simply breaks immersion and the only reason we have LIs willing to even hump trees is because BW was either unable or unwilling to spend more time on creating characters/LIs.

Modifié par Targy90, 23 avril 2011 - 06:07 .

[PlumPaul93]

makenzieshepard wrote...

Sexuality is not 3 jars labeled straight, bi and gay so stop trying to shove characters into them. This spectrum is a better illustration but is still inadequate.



*ponders where she would place each Bioware LI/Charcter*

I thought you guys kept on saying games aren't supposed to be realistic

[Ryzaki]

makenzieshepard wrote...

Sexuality is not 3 jars labeled straight, bi and gay so stop trying to shove characters into them. This spectrum is a better illustration but is still inadequate.



*ponders where she would place each Bioware LI/Charcter*

I'd put them all under fetish since they're pixel characters and not real.  

And before anyone mentions porn. I'm joking. 

[LiquidGrape]

Seboist wrote...

DA2 also rectonned his heterosexuality from Awakening.

Not really, no.

[jlb524]

There's no 'agenda'. It's been stated that having more LIs for both genders adds to some player's enjoyment by giving them freedom to RP their character and his/her relationships like they want to. IIRC, this is the reason the devs for DA2 went this route. This is just a game, not real life...it's not like we are trying to go out and turn real life people gay/bisexual or something. Some people act like s/s romance supporters are asking for a whole lot more than just giving us some RP options in a game.

It seems that there are people who want options limited to just 'them'...perhaps it makes them feel special or better than others who don't have that.

[Maugrim]

double post

Modifié par makenzieshepard, 23 avril 2011 - 06:11 .

[AngelicMachinery]

makenzieshepard wrote...

Sexuality is not 3 jars labeled straight, bi and gay so stop trying to shove characters into them. This spectrum is a better illustration but is still inadequate.



*ponders where she would place each Bioware LI/Charcter*

Transgender isn't really a sexuality...

[Olwydd]

Targy90 wrote...

Who cares? I sure do; I find that this, amongst many things, simply breaks immersion and the only reason we have LIs willing to even hump trees is because BW was either unable or unwilling to spend more time on creating characters/LIs.

I'm sorry you feel that way. However, your immersion comes at the expense of my happiness (and apparently vice versa) so somebody is bound to lose out. But while I lose out on content that I very much plan to use, your trouble comes only from the inclusion of content you never intend to use. While you can chose to ignore that content, I cannot ignore its absence and simply imagine it to be. Within a minute, you can bypass and forget what irks you. I cannot, however, enjoy content that does not exist. So I ask, which of us has the higher stake?

Modifié par Olwydd, 23 avril 2011 - 06:21 .

[LiquidGrape]

Clonedzero wrote...

the problem with it is it'd require rewrites for half the characters which arent consistent with the rest of the series.

male shepard needs to be rewritten, kaidan needs to be rewritten, jacob needs to be rewritten, femshep needs to be rewritten, ashley needs to be rewritten. its insane.

the amount of rewritten and out fo the blue character development required to make gay romances work in ME3 would be so awkward and forced that it'd ruin the entire concept. the absolute only way i could see it working, is if this new guy james sanders is gay making him romancable. other than that i really dont want characters being forced to be bi when there was no indication of it earlier on. just comes accross as cheap forced fanservice.

and i already hated the tali and garrus romances because they were cheap forced fan service as well.

Rewrite?
What would they possibly have to rewrite?
No character at any point makes clear reference to their orientation. Not even Jack, as her "girl's club" comment can easily be construed as intended to describe a more general apprehension. The issue of previously not being available for a s/s romance is a non-factor here, since BioWare could easily and legitimately elaborate on any character to define their sexual characteristics.
Because as it is, nothing is clearly defined.

PlumPaul82393 wrote...
this is true but sadly people would be more than alright with it because it fits there agenda.

I see someone's been into the supply of tin foil hats.

[Persephone]

Michoss wrote...

Yeah, they handled it reeeeaaally well with Anders telling you about his boyfriend and hitting on you every time you select 'paragon' option.

Eh? Telling him no once is sufficient to stop his flirting.

[PlumPaul93]

LiquidGrape wrote...

Clonedzero wrote...

the problem with it is it'd require rewrites for half the characters which arent consistent with the rest of the series.

male shepard needs to be rewritten, kaidan needs to be rewritten, jacob needs to be rewritten, femshep needs to be rewritten, ashley needs to be rewritten. its insane.

the amount of rewritten and out fo the blue character development required to make gay romances work in ME3 would be so awkward and forced that it'd ruin the entire concept. the absolute only way i could see it working, is if this new guy james sanders is gay making him romancable. other than that i really dont want characters being forced to be bi when there was no indication of it earlier on. just comes accross as cheap forced fanservice.

and i already hated the tali and garrus romances because they were cheap forced fan service as well.

Rewrite?
What would they possibly have to rewrite?
No character at any point makes clear reference to their orientation. Not even Jack, as her "girl's club" comment can easily be construed as intended to describe a more general apprehension. The issue of previously not being available for a s/s romance is a non-factor here, since BioWare could easily and legitimately elaborate on any character to define their sexual characteristics.
Because as it is, nothing is clearly defined.

PlumPaul82393 wrote...
this is true but sadly people would be more than alright with it because it fits there agenda.

I see someone's been into the supply of tin foil hats.

so stating the obvious makes me a conspiracy theorist

[Dante Angelo]

I still think they're gonna have 4 bi and 4 straight romances

[jlb524]

Olwydd wrote...

I'm sorry you feel that way. However, your immersion comes at the expense of my happiness (and apparently vice versa) so somebody is bound to lose out. But while I lose out on content that I very much plan to use, your trouble comes only from the inclusion of content you never intend to use. While you can chose to ignore that content, I cannot ignore its absence and simply imagine it to be. Within a minute, you can bypass and forget what irks you. I cannot, however, enjoy content that does not exist. So I ask, which of us has the higher stake?

This is what boggles my mind...people want optional content removed that they don't even have to use and probably won't use but we are 'pushing some agenda' by asking for content that we will definitely use and enjoy (while they can go on simply keep on not using this stuff).  It all seems very selfish to me, and I'm not sure everyone realizes that.

[Badpie]

jlb524 wrote...

Olwydd wrote...

I'm sorry you feel that way. However, your immersion comes at the expense of my happiness (and apparently vice versa) so somebody is bound to lose out. But while I lose out on content that I very much plan to use, your trouble comes only from the inclusion of content you never intend to use. While you can chose to ignore that content, I cannot ignore its absence and simply imagine it to be. Within a minute, you can bypass and forget what irks you. I cannot, however, enjoy content that does not exist. So I ask, which of us has the higher stake?

This is what boggles my mind...people want optional content removed that they don't even have to use and probably won't use but we are 'pushing some agenda' by asking for content that we will definitely use and enjoy (while they can go on simply keep on not using this stuff).  It all seems very selfish to me, and I'm not sure everyone realizes that.

What J said.

[Maugrim]

jlb524 wrote...

Olwydd wrote...

I'm sorry you feel that way. However, your immersion comes at the expense of my happiness (and apparently vice versa) so somebody is bound to lose out. But while I lose out on content that I very much plan to use, your trouble comes only from the inclusion of content you never intend to use. While you can chose to ignore that content, I cannot ignore its absence and simply imagine it to be. Within a minute, you can bypass and forget what irks you. I cannot, however, enjoy content that does not exist. So I ask, which of us has the higher stake?

This is what boggles my mind...people want optional content removed that they don't even have to use and probably won't use but we are 'pushing some agenda' by asking for content that we will definitely use and enjoy (while they can go on simply keep on not using this stuff).  It all seems very selfish to me, and I'm not sure everyone realizes that.

Did someone call for a David Gaider quote?!

Linky

David Gaider wrote...



And if there is any doubt why such an opinion might be met with hostility, it has to do with privilege. You can write it off as "political correctness" if you wish, but the truth is that privilege always lies with the majority. They're so used to being catered to that they see the lack of catering as an imbalance. They don't see anything wrong with having things set up to suit them, what's everyone's fuss all about? That's the way it should be, any everyone else should be used to not getting what they want.

The truth is that making a romance available for both genders is far less costly than creating an entirely new one. Does it create some issues of implementation? Sure-- but anything you try on this front is going to have its issues, and inevitably you'll always leave someone out in the cold.

...The very best we can do is give everyone a little bit of choice, and that's what we tried here.

And the person who says that the only way to please them is to restrict options for others is, if you ask me, the one who deserves it least. And that's my opinion, expressed as politely as possible.

Modifié par makenzieshepard, 23 avril 2011 - 06:35 .

[jeweledleah]

Clonedzero wrote...

Rewrite?
What would they possibly have to rewrite?
No character at any point makes clear reference to their orientation. Not even Jack, as her "girl's club" comment can easily be construed as intended to describe a more general apprehension. The issue of previously not being available for a s/s romance is a non-factor here, since BioWare could easily and legitimately elaborate on any character to define their sexual characteristics.
Because as it is, nothing is clearly defined.

well lets see.  they have to adress the fact that in ME1 romances are polarizing.  Kaidan and Ashley show interest to oposite gender Shepard but not same sex shepard and they show it outside of the private conversations.  the atraction is shown throughout the game in banter, slipups, etc.  So, they cannot just use "you never asked" excuse with the npc's. you CAN use it with Shepard, but it needs to be written well, and you cannot just have this characters fall all over themselves to be with  Shepard, and you cannot just say - well they were always bi, you just didn't know it, or that they are Shepard sexual, becasue in previous games?  they weren't. you say its a non factor, but I'm sorry - it is.  becasue it sets the precedent.  it especialy sets the precedent with Shepard sexual idea (at least in DA, you have 2 different protagonists, so you can kinda claim that maybe Anders wasn't atracted to warden but IS atracted to Hawke).  you have to write a separate arc for same sex romance.  you have to make sure that its evenly distributed between males and females, you have to make sure that it doesn't punish players who are new to the franchise (you now that by default, the game choses the oposite gender teammate asa virmire survivor, right?), or players who happened to save/lose specific characters.  Everyone but Liara can die in prior games and unlike DA team, ME team doesn't seem to be into retconning deaths.

people like to say that rewriting old characters will be easier/cheaper.  they already have to concider all the variables when it comes to who lived or died and how they will afftect the actual plot of the game.  now imaginehaving to concider those variables when it comes to same sex romance.  easier to just write new characters who will be alive in everyone's games and who don't have pesky backstories to adress.

just waving it all away is sloppy writing.

Modifié par jeweledleah, 23 avril 2011 - 06:34 .

[Targy90]

If that optional content comes at the cost of magically turning characters into bisexuals; then yes, people will most definately be pissed.
Introducing new characters that are bi or gay? Fine by me.

[Badpie]

Targy90 wrote...

If that optional content comes at the cost of magically turning characters into bisexuals; then yes, people will most definately be pissed.
Introducing new characters that are bi or gay? Fine by me.

Which you won't ever see unless you choose to take advantage of that in a playthrough.

[Vormaerin]

After all, its entirely possible to understand the sum total of a character and his or her secrets, dreams, fears, etc in 50 or so lines of dialogue. And no one ever changes in two years. Nope. Never.

[Dazaster Dellus]

It is good that they haven't incorporated Homosexuality into ME series. I didn't mind it in DA because it fits. But with ME it is different. Just like most real life militaries homosexuality is forbidden in Ranks. I think ME follows along those lines which is fine by me. The Alliance is just a combined and futuristic version of our current armed forces.

Modifié par Dazaster Dellus, 23 avril 2011 - 06:46 .

[Targy90]

Vormaerin wrote...

After all, its entirely possible to understand the sum total of a character and his or her secrets, dreams, fears, etc in 50 or so lines of dialogue. And no one ever changes in two years. Nope. Never.

Best handwave ever, thanks for that.

[Dante Angelo]

Dazaster Dellus wrote...

It is good that they haven't incorporated Homosexuality into ME series. I didn't mind it in DA because it fits. But with ME it is different. Just like most real life militaries homosexuality is forbidden in Ranks. I think ME follows along that lines which is fine by me.

No it's forbidden to be openly Homosexual or Bisexual. There's a difference