323 réponses à ce sujet

[jds1bio]

ejoslin wrote...

One problem I had with the dialog system in DA2 was the weirdness of the cutscene. I mean this. In DAO, you walked up to someone, clicked on them, and you got a greeting (which changed depending on what the approval rating was). You could then engage in a conversation, kiss them if romanced Alistair/Morrigan (and Zevran/Leliana via mod), or say "never mind" and be on your way. It was pretty organic.

In DA2, you go to someone's house, then you click on them, and then a cutscene starts, and I can only think of one that actually made it seem like your party was with you. Otherwise, you click on the companion, and suddenly either they're in a conversation with someone else, or they're doing some action that was completely unrelated, and you're in a different room in a few cases as well.  it's actually pretty jarring.  And this is not including that the way you learn that they want to talk to you is not a "Hey Hawke, come by later so we can talk," but a note in your quest journal.

I'm sure this has been mentioned by now, but just in case it hasn't...  Catching up now

That's a great point.  Like when Varric is in my party, and we go to visit Aveline, and when we walk into her office there is Varric finishing up a convo with Aveline.  Wasn't he just in my party?

[SilentK]

Hmmm... never feelt that scenes where jarring. Then I probably would have reacted to the scenes with companions in DA:O as well. Like when Leliana compliments your hair and blushes, she does such a cute thing with her feet. Think it is that conversation. Was such a long time ago now that I'm starting to forget them. And it never feelt jaaring when the romance scenes switched on. Hmm.... just me I guess =)

[ejoslin]

tmp7704 wrote...

In Exile wrote...

No. It has to be development.

Zevran didn't grow or change as a person; Zevran went through moods.

Sorry but this is getting ridiculous. If Zevran changing his views on whether or not he should let himself get close to others is "going through moods" even though each instance alters how he acts as a person, does it mean if Alistair at some point changes his view on whether he should be selfish ... you'll declare that your initial assessment of him was wrong and he didn't undergo character development, he just "went through moods" too?

Hopefully my flags are correct here...

I just want to say it's silly to say that Zevran didn't develop as a character.  In the end, he goes from just living for the moment and hoping to gain his freedom to being willing to give up everything for the sake of an ideal. And if he's a friend, he will tell you how proud he is to be a part of something greater than himself.

If he's in love, he wants to toss away his freedom, to help the warden with this.  Keep in mind, he doesn't only hvae to fear dying to the darkspawn.  If he walks away after his personal quest, the Crows will think he's dead.  He's free from them.  If he stays with the warden, they'll know he's alive so if he survives, he will be hunted.

He also finally trusts someone for the first time ever.  He actually has a followup conversation about this (much like the follow up conversations with Leliana and Alistair hardening) where if you let him know you don't consider him a friend, he drops back down to warm, and has learned not to trust people.  he still helps though -- even though he doesn't have to, even though he may not be friends with the warden, he still is willing to give up everything he initially wanted to help defeat the blight.

This is far more than going through moods.

Modifié par ejoslin, 26 avril 2011 - 05:22 .

[Ryzaki]

Indeed it's silly to say the characters in either game don't develop.

[tmp7704]

SilentK wrote...

Hmmm... never feelt that scenes where jarring.

The jarring part is possibly how these extra followers appear in cutscenes out of the blue when just a second ago you saw it's only you and the owner of the house/place present there. Or how you have a follower in your party and they've been with you the entire time, but then you click to initiate dialogue and see a cutscene which makes it appear like this very follower was sitting and chatting with the house owner until you've arrived.

I did find it rather weird myself. It wasn't large issue but it did feel sloppy and instead of getting impression these companions have their own lives it resulted in more of a "uhh.. right " sensation.

[Alamar2078]

I've gotta say I've gotta respect Mr. Gaider's willingness to talk about decisions. While I certainly don't agree with everything the guys gotta quad.

I agree that the structure of ME1 & ME2 & DA:O dialog farming needed changes / tweaks / whatever to make it more natural.

In general I agree that having lots of party banter, having people talk about quests [while questing with you], having people hunt you down to speak to you [drop by the mansion] are all GOOD things.

Dialog farming / having to wait through a "loading" screen to just chat someone / etc. are all NOT good.

[wildannie]

 @SilentK  move from Fenris to Anders!!! never in my games...:wub:lovely Fenris,  but I get what you're saying.  

Re: the barks... I just can't not click on them, it's as if some small part of me (the insane part btw) thinks that one time they're going to go 'Hawke, good to see you, let's chat' 

*small Thane Spoilers*

Re: ME2 romance it's always been Thane (except for when she's loyal to lovely Kaiden... that's most of the time) and I love that once he's fully romanced there are three romance things to talk about...  Also... having Thane call shep Siha is a stroke of genius.  I don't think Shep would have considered a lizard man otherwise... it is a little ****ed up:P.

...I'm rambling... sorry:D

[SilentK]

@]wildannie

I fully get being a companion-clicker. All my sweet conversations didn't just magically disapear in DA:O. I just like them too much so I ...  can't... *gah* ... stop... clicking.   I'm so silly sometimes. Actually considered making a list of possible conversations and then making a notch when I've done one so that perhaps I would have some kind of motivation for not burning through them. Pretty lame     

Thane is really sweet    =)   wish he had a few more conversations. Hope he pulls through ME3, a magic cure perhaps? Love the Siha, just have difficulties with not ending up with either Liara or Kaidan    =)    I'm weak as previously mentioned.


Ohh... just to add a bit concerning perhaps jarring scenes. I can see what you guys mean it's just that I never feelt it as jarring     =)    

Modifié par SilentK, 26 avril 2011 - 07:54 .

[SidheKate]

What if we all pretended for a moment that *more* wasn't possible. Are there any constructive recommendations or comments we could make then?

I don't mean that sarcastically. For a few minutes, envision the strengths and weaknesses of DA2's dialog, character development and companion inclusion methods. When did they work? When didn't they work?

For me, I felt the closest to my companions in Act 2, although I have a difficult time articulating precisely why. I was glad to have new dialog at the beginning of the act with them, although I noticed I would lose that dialog if I didn't find them before their personal quest triggered. They seemed to have more to say during the quests than in Act 1, and it was new material in Act 2 (as opposed to Act 3, when we know their perspective on the mage/templar issue by then). I loved the inclusion of the LI going to visit Hawke after All That Remains. I liked the various Questioning Beliefs, and it was nice that they triggered right after the personal quests.

But take the answer of *more* (MOAR) off the table. What other suggestions do people have?

[wildannie]

@SidheKate - I mentioned earlier in this thread (I think) that some of the dialogue that we had, could have been delivered outwith the 'quests'. Specifically I was thinking of the sword of mercy gift to Fenris. There are three questions available re: Tevinter during that conversation and I would have preferred to not have to ask them all at that point but be able to leave come back and ask him them later. I also would have preferred to be able to choose when I give the gifts as an option from within the dialogue screen.

My ideal would be this.

You enter companions home, sometimes this initiates a cut scene (with companions etc) that ends in a convo screen with choices of where the conversation goes. All the conversation options do not have to be used at this time. When the (paced) cut scenes are exhausted you can initiate convo by clicking on the character.

edit: @Silentk  hopefully we'll get Kaiden Liara happiness in 3... I was so frustrated with the convo options on Horizon with Kaiden 

Modifié par wildannie, 26 avril 2011 - 08:20 .

[jds1bio]

SidheKate wrote...

What if we all pretended for a moment that *more* wasn't possible. Are there any constructive recommendations or comments we could make then?

But take the answer of *more* (MOAR) off the table. What other suggestions do people have?

Besides filling up a codex, I don't know.  What are my constraints?  What kind of story is the next game? Do I have to use a particular game engine?  Are there only so many art assets I can use?  Having less words to tell a story with, can I animate everything and tell the story properly?  Or if I include backstory in companion and main-plot quests, could the player miss out on this depending on the type of quest?  Do I have access to voice actors that can perform multiple roles without breaking immersion?

I don't think that everyone is asking for MOAR necessarily.  I think more conversation makes up for some of the shortcomings of engine and animation and quests and such, and until those become more capable of being emotive, we have to fall back on words and voices if we want features in our game like deep-running companion relationships and connection to backstory.

[Giltspur]

SidheKate wrote...

What if we all pretended for a moment that *more* wasn't possible. Are there any constructive recommendations or comments we could make then?

I don't mean that sarcastically. For a few minutes, envision the strengths and weaknesses of DA2's dialog, character development and companion inclusion methods. When did they work? When didn't they work?

 

I'll focus on some of my favorite scenes where I felt like I was getting to know the characters via conversation (as opposed favorite scenes where I came to like the characters by watching or observing them).

Aveline
I really like the conversation where you can ask her about having married a Templar and she corrects you by saying that she married a man that was a templar.  More interesting than that was her remark about her doubts regarding the Maker since she's not to sold on the idea of the Maker proving more by doing less.

Fenris
One of my favorite moments for Fenris is when he admits to killing the people he's been living with in Seheron because of Danarius's command--his reasoning being that he felt it inevitable.  And then he fled, suggesting an emotional reaction he couldn't process or explain.  

What I liked about those conversations is they presented an initial obstacle to understanding--just a brief one.  But resolving that made the character feel psychologically deeper and thus closer because that depth had been revealed to me.

Isabela
The other character that I felt close to in conversation was Isabela.  

Questioning Beliefs, Act II.  This is the scene in Hanged Man where one of possible remarks from her is "you're all right" which Hawke can reply sarcasticaly too.    In general, Isabela's voice actor seems to play well with the Hawke voice actors, both male and female.  In this more frienship scene, I had male Hawke.

Isabela's Apology.  "I like big boats, and I cannot lie" teases Lady Hawke.  Here again I like the exchange between the voice actors.  The female voice actor for Hawke seems good at teasing Isabela and making her a little (but not particularly) uncomfortable.  And here female Hawke is the one that supplies the innuendo, which is a fun change of pace.

And then there's the scene in Act III that you get if you kill Castillon where Isabela starts to become comfortable with the idea of settling down.  Here I feel like my character--my male Hawke that wasn't romancing her--had an impact on another character.  I think what made this scene effective was not knowing the game yet.  I'd pressured her into returning the Qunari book not knowing if she'd come back or not--as I wasn't doing what she wanted.  And then again pressuring her to kill Castillon--not what she wanted.  But my character was really uncomfortable with letting the slaver walk and felt Isabela would regret it.  So there was some tension on my part.  But the game rewarded that with a satisying "ending" for the character in the conversation after that quest.

So in summary for Isabela, Here I think the voice actors, the established
sense of humor for Isabela (often seen in banter), her role the plot, and not knowing the consequences of my PC's actions all played together well. 

[Iakus]

The one problem I had with having queues to visit people for conversations was it didn't seem to reward being a proactive player, but reinforces the feeling I had to being reactive towards everything.

"I think I'll drop by the clinic and see what Anders is up to"
vs
"I sense a disturbance in the Force.  I should go check on Anders"

Party reactions while out adventuring were great.  Arguably better than Origins.  I just wish that if I chose on my own initiative to visit Merrill, I could get something besides complaints that her house was always dirty.

[Alamar2078]

SidheKate wrote...

What if we all pretended for a moment that *more* wasn't possible. Are there any constructive recommendations or comments we could make then? 

I like the idea of companions coming to the mansion / slums to visit Hawke at his house rather than you having to wait through load screens just to have a conversation.  Basically if companions can come to my house to speak to DOG then they can also come to speak to me.

This would solve:
-- Waiting through load screens just to talk to someone in a different area of the city
-- Solves the "calibration" issue
-- If there is a message on your desk [at someone's house] you know it's a real quest or at least that the setting is important [like visiting Merill & the mirror]

*****************************

For small tidbits of conversation perhaps the companion would hit you up while they were in the party.  This would give you the chance to chit-chat with them for the little things.

[Alamar2078]

iakus wrote...

The one problem I had with having queues to visit people for conversations was it didn't seem to reward being a proactive player, but reinforces the feeling I had to being reactive towards everything.

"I think I'll drop by the clinic and see what Anders is up to"
vs
"I sense a disturbance in the Force.  I should go check on Anders"

Party reactions while out adventuring were great.  Arguably better than Origins.  I just wish that if I chose on my own initiative to visit Merrill, I could get something besides complaints that her house was always dirty.

I understand the criticism but in a game that seems to be about how Hawke is pulled along for the ride by the currents of destiny I don't mind a reactive system too much.

[SilentK]

iakus wrote...

The one problem I had with having queues to visit people for conversations was it didn't seem to reward being a proactive player, but reinforces the feeling I had to being reactive towards everything.

"I think I'll drop by the clinic and see what Anders is up to"
vs
"I sense a disturbance in the Force.  I should go check on Anders"

Party reactions while out adventuring were great.  Arguably better than Origins.  I just wish that if I chose on my own initiative to visit Merrill, I could get something besides complaints that her house was always dirty.

Hmmm ..... showing that conversations are available in the journal is something that I see as a way to get rid of the "garrus-calibrations"-problem. You go by and try to click your companions not knowing wheter if they have something new to say or not. Since that really bugged me when playing ME2 I'm pretty happy with this system. I roleplay around it, when I feel that there should be a good time for my F!Hawke to go by her LI Anders I like to do it after I heard some interesting banter or something like that. Perhaps there will be a mod sometime so that you can play the game without having the flags for conversations. It would irritate me so I would rather keep them but if there are players who prefer to not know when conversations are available I guess it shouldn't be too difficult to not show them in the journal. Then you can go back to going by and seeing if it works.

Hmmm... I guess this is what it looks like when you have paced conversations that are flagged. No paced conversations are the DA:O system and paced but no idea of knowing when is the ME2 system. Paced and announced is what we have now.

If you would be rewarded for going by and clicking on companions, meaning you would get an unexpected conversation. Wouldn't that mean that you would go around all companions clicking them, and there wouldn't always be new conversations. And you would pretty soon end up with the "Garrus-calibrationz" again.

I would rather have items and things that you can ask your companions about. Not gifts, not always trying to get them to become more of a friend or a rival. Perhaps more of a "hey, I found this and thought that it was interesting. Do you know anything about the woods, this culture, *insert something clever*". Perhaps that would be more of a casual chit-chat. With the gifts you always have to say why you thought about them, why you thought that it would make them feel good or bad. If it's just a object that you are investigating perhaps you can talk to everyone about it. Well, like the idol, let's just say that you could have talked to your companions about it.

Varric: Have you heard about any other dwarven artifact like this before?
Izzy: Hey, you have been around    =)    have you ever seen anything like this on your travels?
Merrill: You look at the more dangerous aspects of magic every now and then, any insight?
 
Ok... this is getting to long. Back to the lab and my samples...    =)

[Danjaru]

I prefer the Origins method by a mile compared to DA2 method.

In Origins you could do some major quests, get back and then continue a conversation with your companions, just ramblings, asking them questions or whatever. Felt genuine as if you're talking to a friend about some things. Then you also had the conversations that had to do with their quests.

In DA2, you pretty much ONLY talked to them when they wanted to give you a mission, or during their personal mission, or after. It didn't feel like a friendship, they felt more like those "friends" who only talk to you when they need something.

[David Gaider]

I like the idea of companions coming to the mansion / slums to visit Hawke at his house rather than you having to wait through load screens just to have a conversation.  Basically if companions can come to my house to speak to DOG then they can also come to speak to me.

This would solve:
-- Waiting through load screens just to talk to someone in a different area of the city
-- Solves the "calibration" issue
-- If there is a message on your desk [at someone's house] you know it's a real quest or at least that the setting is important [like visiting Merill & the mirror]

We actually considered having more companions come to your home (it does happen in a few instances, after all, like Aveline & Isabela at the end of Act 2). The issue we ran into was with regards to not knowing just how often the player was going to actually return to their home... and the resulting queue of "companions waiting to talk to Hawke" that could result.

Ultimately I think this boils down to splitting the companions up into their individual homes having logistical complications. While I like the idea from a conceptual standpoint, I'm pretty certain I wouldn't do it this way again without addressing some of the functionality.

[mesmerizedish]

David Gaider wrote...

We actually considered having more companions come to your home (it does happen in a few instances, after all, like Aveline & Isabela at the end of Act 2). The issue we ran into was with regards to not knowing just how often the player was going to actually return to their home... and the resulting queue of "companions waiting to talk to Hawke" that could result.

Ultimately I think this boils down to splitting the companions up into their individual homes having logistical complications. While I like the idea from a conceptual standpoint, I'm pretty certain I wouldn't do it this way again without addressing some of the functionality.

Is that actually your decision to make? The "home bases" struck me as more of a gameplay choice than a writing one.

Or am I just overcompensating for the people who think you make cinematic trailers, and underestimating what it is you do?

[Cutlass Jack]

David Gaider wrote...

We actually considered having more companions come to your home (it does happen in a few instances, after all, like Aveline & Isabela at the end of Act 2). The issue we ran into was with regards to not knowing just how often the player was going to actually return to their home... and the resulting queue of "companions waiting to talk to Hawke" that could result.

Ultimately I think this boils down to splitting the companions up into their individual homes having logistical complications. While I like the idea from a conceptual standpoint, I'm pretty certain I wouldn't do it this way again without addressing some of the functionality.

I saw a few people having that issue when Isabela shows up at the house to give her act 3 quest at the same time Varric was there for the 'Dogs Playing Poker' bit. Isabela won't go into her quest dialogue while Varric is there, and people weren't realizing you needed to click on the dog, not Varric to trigger his. (which was inconsistent with other 'dog' bits to begin with)

[highcastle]

I didn't mind having to speak with companions at their homes and I far prefer the cinematic style of DA2 over the static feel of Origins. When you have moments where Hawke tosses Varric his signet ring for instance, it feels so much more dynamic than Zev trying to give the warden a similar object which you never see. Video games are a visual medium, it's time we embrace that. Like just about everyone though, I want to see more dialogue. This is true of every Bioware game. You guys create vivid characters and I want to interact with them. Even doubling the word budget would likely have us eager for more. That should be a testimony to good writing.

Also, why I like the banter I like cinematic conversations more. I'd hate to see banter replace scripted conversations.

[element eater]

id like to know why generic conversations were taken out, in DAO you talk to liliana for example and even if there was no new dialogue ask for a story or what not, the same is true for me2 you might not get any new dialogue but you can still speak to them. I really dislike speaking to characters and not getting a conversation makes them seem more like objects then characters to me

[_Aine_]

David Gaider wrote...
We actually considered having more companions come to your home (it does happen in a few instances, after all, like Aveline & Isabela at the end of Act 2). The issue we ran into was with regards to not knowing just how often the player was going to actually return to their home... and the resulting queue of "companions waiting to talk to Hawke" that could result.

Ultimately I think this boils down to splitting the companions up into their individual homes having logistical complications. While I like the idea from a conceptual standpoint, I'm pretty certain I wouldn't do it this way again without addressing some of the functionality.

I was one of the "hardly returned home" people. I usually went home "just to see" when I was going through a long spell of quests without having much companion interaction. Missing it, I returned to everyone's homes as well as mine in the hope that there was something there for me.     ((Uhh.... upon re-reading this, I probably went home fairly often, just for selfish reasons like checking for more dialogue ))Just like clicking on my companions habitually in the hope they may say something new, relevant and un-canned.  Ever the optimist lol

I *did* have one moment at least when I did go home, and I wish I could remember what I returned for, but I DO know that it was supposed to be fairly urgent reasoning behind it, and I had two companions(or maybe one was dog I honestly don't remember, it was several playthroughs ago) lined up and I had to go through some dialog in order to do what I went back there for.   It happened, not consistently, but it did happen.  

Probably would have been easier had everyone had private rooms/locations in a central hub so things were a bit more central.   It certainly made being obsessed about character interactions easier when they were all in the same place.    Hey, I admit it. I like that part (the conversations, and them being cinematic was nice too).  The mood of the different places, by itself though, was nice.  

Modifié par shantisands, 27 avril 2011 - 03:57 .

[Cutlass Jack]

I was one of the 'Often Returned Home' people. How else would I find time to choreograph my musical routines?

But more seriously, I returned home whenever I needed to craft, store or check what new mail I got. The mail indicator on the map I usually took as a hint to pay a visit.