323 réponses à ce sujet

[mesmerizedish]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

I was one of the 'Often Returned Home' people. How else would I find time to choreograph my musical routines?

But more seriously, I returned home whenever I needed to craft, store or check what new mail I got. The mail indicator on the map I usually took as a hint to pay a visit.

If I wasn't in mid-quest, I always went home to save and quit.

[Brockololly]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Just the way it looks (for me at least). As much as I love red and black, it felt out of place (also maybe a bit hard to read). Aesthetically, I prefer Origins menu. ME1 and 2's menu are also pleasant to navigate and they "fit" for the lack of a better word. But like I said, not a big deal at all. Though it is still part of the larger design, which I am not a big fan of. It's trying a bit too hard to look "modern" and edgy. That's the impression I got at least.

Zjarcal wrote...

Oh, if you meant more about the  aesthetics then I would agree, I did like the Origins menus better on  that regard. More effort was placed into making them look nice.

Yeah, I was just referring to the look of them- for comparison:

DAO Chanter's Board on Consoles:


DAO Chanter's Board on PC:


DA2 Chanter's Board:


Not to mention how the PC DAO one animated the little scraps of paper tacked to the board and you had the Warden wax seal. Little things on their own perhaps, but its those little things when added up that gave Origins a sense of polish that the DA2 did not have.

tmp7704 wrote...
The jarring part is possibly how these extra followers appear in cutscenes  out of the blue when just a second ago you saw it's only you and the  owner of the house/place present there. Or how you have a follower in
your party and they've been with you the entire time, but then you click to initiate dialogue and see a cutscene which makes it appear like this very follower was sitting and chatting with the house owner until  you've arrived.

I did find it rather weird myself. It wasn't  large issue but it did feel sloppy and instead of getting impression
these companions have their own lives it resulted in more of a "uhh.. right ../../../images/forum/emoticons/angry.png" sensation.

Yeah, the transitions between gameplay and cutscene need some work, as too often you'd for example, go into Fenris' house, see him standing alone in his room, click on him, enter the cutscene, see Hawke walking in again, then see Fenris sitting down and magically Isabela is sitting down in the room too.  Again, its a little thing by itself that sort of snowballs with all the other little things going on in the game.

David Gaider wrote...
Ultimately I think this boils down to splitting the companions up into their  individual homes having logistical complications. While I like the idea  from a conceptual standpoint, I'm pretty certain I wouldn't do it this  way again without addressing some of the functionality.

Yeah, I liked how everyone had their own spot as it made sense for DA2's story. But logistically, it exacerbated the whole "making the rounds" issue some had in Origins as now you had to go across the whole map and go through loading screens to get to the companion. Not to mention how you no  longer had a common spot to manage companion inventory either.

I'm sure it comes down to resources and all, but it would have been nice too if when not in your party, those companions actually were out and about and not just glued to the floor in their one home base spot. So maybe you could see Aveline out patrolling, or see Isabela out in the docks shopping for ships or you run across Merrill looking lost and could start a conversation with them that way. Maybe they're randomly generated in a given zone you're in and then they essentially act like the Awakening conversation triggers, except you'd actually be interacting with a companion and not a random object. This wouldn't necessarily work with companions in your party but for all the talk of companions having lives of their own, they all seemed fairly static as you never really saw them doing their own thing.

Modifié par Brockololly, 27 avril 2011 - 03:39 .

[Avissel]

After the first time I came home and found a companion waiting to talk to me, I started going there more often. I really liked those instances because it made it seem like my companions actually WANTED to talk to me, it was nice to see them coming to find me instead of me always being the one to initiate interaction.

[Cutlass Jack]

Avissel wrote...

After the first time I came home and found a companion waiting to talk to me, I started going there more often. I really liked those instances because it made it seem like my companions actually WANTED to talk to me, it was nice to see them coming to find me instead of me always being the one to initiate interaction.

Exactly how it was for me. From the first time I walked into Gamelin's only to find Merril there telling a story to my dog I was hooked on returning home more often. I loved the feeling that my companions were friends not only with me but with my family and each other. (In some cases instead of me!)

Made a nice change from having to continually hearing Garrus make excuses about his calibrations.

Long story short, I loved the way they did it in DA2....I just want even more of such conversational events. Its what really makes these games for me. Makes things like 'exploding body combat' more bearable.

[_Aine_]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Long story short, I loved the way they did it in DA2....I just want even more of such conversational events. Its what really makes these games for me. Makes things like 'exploding body combat' more bearable.

QFT.

These moments were some of the best for actually feeling a bit of connection.  They felt random, more natural.    I also liked it how sometimes you could randomly click people ( like your mom ) and they DID have conversations, no big yellow arrow floating or map marker to tell you.  Cullen did that once or twice for me also, although it may be a bug....still, I enjoyed that.  It didn't feel part of a quest line as much as a part of Hawke's *life*.  

[Cutlass Jack]

shantisands wrote...

These moments were some of the best for actually feeling a bit of connection.  They felt random, more natural.    I also liked it how sometimes you could randomly click people ( like your mom ) and they DID have conversations, no big yellow arrow floating or map marker to tell you.  Cullen did that once or twice for me also, although it may be a bug....still, I enjoyed that.  It didn't feel part of a quest line as much as a part of Hawke's *life*.  

Happens during certain quests too if you take the time to pursue angles the quest markers don't lead you on. Like going to inform people (like the Arishok, Vicount or Grand Cleric) of events even though its not your current objective. May not change much (other than the Arishok's respect level) but nice touches that were incredibly easy to miss.

I even loved really minor things like Lady Elegant telling me how she really wants me to come over for dinner to meet her husband sometime.

Again. Nice moments that really make me feel connected. Want more of them please.

Modifié par Cutlass Jack, 27 avril 2011 - 04:08 .

[Sad Dragon]

SidheKate wrote...

But take the answer of *more* (MOAR) off the table. What other suggestions do people have?

I accept the challenge! (Hopefully I wont get too flamed for this.)

Now, lets get some things out of the way before I start:

• These options will not try and please everyone -- so If you don't like the idea and I already have some ideas as to why people might not like them. That being said, feel free to give you oppinion none the less, as I have most sertanly missed and angel or two.
• These are all operating on the principle of resources. I can not add anymore to the pot, but I do assume I can switch around resources.
• I personally think there could be put more into the game as from what I know (which might be wrong) the game had a really short production time for a AAA title.
  I might not nessecarally agree with all these sugestions to the extent that I am going to be putting forward. I could however see these changes being made to a lesser degree.

With that out of the way, lets get to it.

What I would have Removed:

• Remove all codex entries.
  This is done to free up writers to write more dialogue. Sure the codex entries can be fun, but for the most part I personally dont even read them -- and I'm sure I'm not the only one. The Codex is also flavour that is outside the game, with exceptions of pages you actually find and pick up.
• Remove all party banter
  Now bear with me here. I am not removing this compleetly, I am going to put some back, but I am now in the free up resources part. So please bear with me. This is done so I have more Voice Actor time to juggle around. On a side note: Was I the only one that just 'stopped playing the game' when the banter played cause I didnt want to interupt it by accident?
• Remove all the random dialogue that isnt party banter but still uses up VA time.
  Now this I never felt added that much to the game, sure it was a nice touch but we are trying to build something more here so for that reason it will have to go.
• Remove Personality based Haweke dialogues.
  Again, bear with me. What I mean here is not the dialogue we as players choose but the dialogue options that gets choosen for us depending on which personality style we have choosed the most. This is a 50/50 for me to begin with, as I tend to be sarcastic or even a dead pan snark when the situation allows for it -- with friends or people I know at least half well (ie. the party members). This does not mean I act the same way with all my friends, and definetly not with people I dont know. So having hawke go sarcastic bordering on arrogant at times takes away immersion not adds to it. Still a nice idea.
  This is done to free up more VA resources as well as writers.
• Remove the Companions visiting Dog.
  While some are really fun, or insightful I think we could use those lines but in another way. Those who are less fun/informative we can use the resources elsewhere.
• Remove the fetching quests.
  Again, to free up some resourced.

And now to add things back in:

• Remember that banter we removed? Now lets modify it and add it back in but add it in a social setting. Say Merrill and Isabella are bantering for king and country while socializing at the hanged man -- but wait! You are also there partacing in the bantering and maybe having a drink as well! This might make running around with party members a bit duller, but you would never worry about missing anything, and you could also see banter with a different character combo then the ones you prefer to take out on missions.
• Add the more fun/insightful lines from when the companions visit dog into the banter. Have Aveline ask Hawke if she can borrow Dog as part of the banter or have Varric tell Hawke how he managed to teach Hawkes dog to gamble after discussing cards with Isabela.
• Add Character dialogue -- spaced out so we can't use up everything at once -- that only becomes unlockable at sertain times in the game. These times should flow naturally into the conversation. Your sibling gets placed in the Grey Wardens -- a Grey warden dialogue gets unlocked with Anders. Perhapps even add a line dialogue by Hawke when you get the letter from said sibling saying where He or She notes that perhapps Anders would know more about what the sibling is going through to make it clear that you can now talk to Anders.
• Your companions pipe in more during quests - if and only if -- it is relevant. Also more of an informative dialogue then taking a stance. Kind of like how Varric did with the "Friends in Low Places" quest. "This is something I know due to my past, and i would advice this, but it is up to you Hawke".

Now I cant be sure if i have removed enough for what I have added back in -- or if I could add more but I will stop here anyway as the post seemed to have grown a bit bigger then I intended it to be.

If you have any questions or you want me to elaborate on something, just ask here or send a PM.

EDIT: Tried to fix the list levels but couldnt figure out how to do it
EDIT 2: Fixed the problem by simply removing the numeric list

- The Sad Dragon

Modifié par Sad Dragon, 27 avril 2011 - 05:03 .

[jds1bio]

@SadDragon: Thanks for your post. I think you've illustrated just what kind of balancing act goes on when crafting these types of games.

Parts have to do with fashioning the quests in both a dramatic and playable fashion, while pacing the dialogue so that certain lines are delivered at appropriate times in the story and in the game.

Parts have to do with fashioning the player character, and how much control/input/ownership the player has over their character's conversational participation.

Parts have to do with the enrichment of the gameplay experience. There were more than a few times where I was out of earshot of party banter in DA2, but I don't want it removed in the next game for that reason. I did stop at times to make sure I could hear what was being said.

I don't know if I can agree or disagree with your points without knowing what kind of story and game features will be in the next game. But I appreciate the thoughts behind them.

Modifié par jds1bio, 27 avril 2011 - 04:58 .

[Sad Dragon]

jds1bio wrote...

I don't know if I can agree or disagree with your points without knowing what kind of story and game features will be in the next game. But I appreciate the thoughts behind them.

Now dont get me wrong, I dont think my points are neccessarally the answer or anything I mearly rose to a challenge

Personaly I would like to see a longer dev time for the next game -- which means you dont have to do as much juggeling to make things work

- TSD

[Hawke1284]

I haven't read the entire thread so this may have already been mentioned, but what if in the next game they added some kind of Companions screen/menu that could be accessed at any time which would list all of your companions and could show a little icon next to their name if they wish to speak with you or have new dialogue available? That way the companion interactions wouldn't all have to have a "quest" associated with them (except for the actual companion quests of course) and the player wouldn't feel like they need to keep going to their companions' homes to check and see if they're still "in the middle of those calibrations".

Of course, if such a screen existed it wouldn't need to be limited to just this purpose. For example it could also allow you to view all your companions' stats/approval rating, change gear, or allocate their attribute/talent points (if they have leveled up) even if they're not in your current party. That way, even without a centralized "party camp" location you could still manage your companions' stats and gear without having to do the whole party-swapping thing.

[SilentK]

Hmmm.. I would be really unhappy if there wasn't any banter when running around in caves and such. For me that makes the game come alive quite a bit. Yeah, I know that it uses up voice-time but I know that it just makes me happy. It takes time, but I wouldn't trade it for the world =)

[Caja]

I’m glad this thread exists because I thought a lot about why I didn’t feel so connected with my DA 2 companions and what makes me feel connected with them in the first place. So far I haven’t gotten all the answers yet but I can say this much:
From my point of view I didn’t get to know my DA 2 companions very well, at least not in the same way I knew my Origins companions. I’m not saying that everything was better in Origins but I believe the characters backgrounds were established in a better way through the available dialogue. Of course, it’s fine to say “But I rather want to show this than to talk about it”, except that I don't think that DA 2 succeeds here.

Maybe I should give an example:

I get the feeling that Alistair is someone who desperately wants to fit in somewhere. He is looking for a family he can bind with. While a part of this is shown during his personal quest and his nightmare in the fade, the dialogue adds to this. The story he tells about his mother’s amulet gives insight into his character. It not only helps me to develop compassion for him. On top of it, it shows me why it is so important that he takes vengance for Duncan’s death. His story makes it easier to understand what kind of person Alistair is and therefore easier to connect with him.

The same applies to Morrigan’s anecdote about the stolen mirror. Had she never told me about it, I might have come to the conclusion that she is just emotionally cold without the deeper understanding of how it must be like to be raised by Flemeth.

And I think that one of the reasons why I feel less connected with my DA 2 companions is the lack of anecdotes. After all, what do I know about Anders other than he likes cats, is a Grey Warden and has merged with a spirit of Justice? Well, he obviously hates templars but I was under the impression that the player is automatically supposed to connect with Anders because mages are treated unfair. I might be wrong though. Anyway, I would have more sympathy for him if I could just ask him in a dialogue what it was like when the templars came and took him away.

I mean, I don’t need reams of dialogues but I actually need some personal story (or dialogue) in order to develop a better understanding of my companion and for me that wasn’t there. Or maybe I did it wrong and missed all the ‘good stuff’?

(and sorry for my english )

Modifié par Caja, 27 avril 2011 - 06:27 .

[Alamar2078]

David Gaider wrote...
We actually considered having more companions come to your home (it does happen in a few instances, after all, like Aveline & Isabela at the end of Act 2). The issue we ran into was with regards to not knowing just how often the player was going to actually return to their home... and the resulting queue of "companions waiting to talk to Hawke" that could result.

Ultimately I think this boils down to splitting the companions up into their individual homes having logistical complications. While I like the idea from a conceptual standpoint, I'm pretty certain I wouldn't do it this way again without addressing some of the functionality.

You must be wrong because you don't agree with me!!! .... that's how these replies are supposed to go right


Seriously:  Thanks for the informative reply.

The way I play the game I return home frequently.  Sometimes this if for RP reasons ... sometimes for game play reasons [stash management / enchantments / potions / etc].   Therfore from my limited point of view it would work perfectly for me.

I have played similar games where I "never" return home though so I certainly see the issue that you bring up.  Off the top of my head I can't come up with a perfect solution for all players.   The "check your journal compromise" is about the best that I could come up with.

[Sad Dragon]

SilentK wrote...

Hmmm.. I would be really unhappy if there wasn't any banter when running around in caves and such. For me that makes the game come alive quite a bit. Yeah, I know that it uses up voice-time but I know that it just makes me happy. It takes time, but I wouldn't trade it for the world =)

Personally I could live withouth the banter if the resources where used to give a deeper connection to the characters. Though it would make the game more dull, but the rule was that I could add anything and I had to make more companion conversations so well, it was the only way to free up enough VA resourced for the companions that I could think of :/

- TSD

[SilentK]

Sad Dragon wrote...

Personally I could live withouth the banter if the resources where used to give a deeper connection to the characters. Though it would make the game more dull, but the rule was that I could add anything and I had to make more companion conversations so well, it was the only way to free up enough VA resourced for the companions that I could think of :/

- TSD

No problems         it's good to bounce around ideas!

edit: removed super-quote

Modifié par SilentK, 27 avril 2011 - 08:24 .

[SilentK]

Caja wrote...

I’m glad this thread exists because I thought a lot about why I didn’t feel so connected with my DA 2 companions and what makes me feel connected with them in the first place. So far I haven’t gotten all the answers yet but I can say this much:
From my point of view I didn’t get to know my DA 2 companions very well, at least not in the same way I knew my Origins companions. I’m not saying that everything was better in Origins but I believe the characters backgrounds were established in a better way through the available dialogue. Of course, it’s fine to say “But I rather want to show this than to talk about it”, except that I don't think that DA 2 succeeds here.

Maybe I should give an example:

I get the feeling that Alistair is someone who desperately wants to fit in somewhere. He is looking for a family he can bind with. While a part of this is shown during his personal quest and his nightmare in the fade, the dialogue adds to this. The story he tells about his mother’s amulet gives insight into his character. It not only helps me to develop compassion for him. On top of it, it shows me why it is so important that he takes vengance for Duncan’s death. His story makes it easier to understand what kind of person Alistair is and therefore easier to connect with him.

The same applies to Morrigan’s anecdote about the stolen mirror. Had she never told me about it, I might have come to the conclusion that she is just emotionally cold without the deeper understanding of how it must be like to be raised by Flemeth.

And I think that one of the reasons why I feel less connected with my DA 2 companions is the lack of anecdotes. After all, what do I know about Anders other than he likes cats, is a Grey Warden and has merged with a spirit of Justice? Well, he obviously hates templars but I was under the impression that the player is automatically supposed to connect with Anders because mages are treated unfair. I might be wrong though. Anyway, I would have more sympathy for him if I could just ask him in a dialogue what it was like when the templars came and took him away.

I mean, I don’t need reams of dialogues but I actually need some personal story (or dialogue) in order to develop a better understanding of my companion and for me that wasn’t there. Or maybe I did it wrong and missed all the ‘good stuff’?

(and sorry for my english )

Hmm... If it's a matter of anecdotes I believe that Fenris and Merrill have them as well. Fenris when he tells you about the Fog-warriors, they certainly made an impact on him. How he lived with them, feeling some freedom and then finally killed them. His life growing up in Tevinter. He talks about it when you give him the book and the sword as well.
Could it be taht you connect better because you like Alistair and Morrigan better than your companions in DA2? And that is no problem, of course you can get more attached to a character from a previous game. My fav LI in the ME-universe is Kaidan and Liara. There hasn't been too much Kaidan in ME2. So nothing wrong with that. I remember listening to Morrigan speaking of her lost mirror but I never really connected to her. For me I guess she was someone that I wanted to like but didn't actually get attached to. I feel much much more for Fenris than I ever did for Morrigan but I guess it's a personal thing. I can certainly understand connecting with Alistair because he is by far my fav companion in DA:O. He was very well written and god what a good romance arc that was  

I don't know why I got on so well with my DA2 companions, guess I just lucked out because I really really care for them. Hmm... I think that for me a big part is that it's voiced. I like DA more as a gaming world but I got a really good connections with my F!Sheps. Perhaps one of the reasons that I just feel so much more alive in DA2 is simply because now I have a voice. Don't know.

Modifié par SilentK, 27 avril 2011 - 08:37 .

[Caja]

^ Interestings thoughts. Honestly, I don't know. Maybe it's really just a matter of preference. But I am actually fairly open-minded about all my companions. And Morrigan isn't exactly someone I'm very attached to. I mentioned her because I thought her story gave great insight into her character.

But you're right, Fenris tells you about his life in Tevinter. However, I had the feeling that this dialogue was "political motivated" in order to explain more why Fenris doesn't like mages. Though if I think about it now you could probably say that Alistair's and Morrigan's background stories served a similar purpose, namely to explain something. LOL.

(And Kaidan is a sweetheart ).

[Alyka]

I think the reason why I felt so disconnected to the companions was because of the lack of more meaningful interactions.I felt more close with Bethany in Act 1 when she talked about the estate and Gamlen.It's something we share.With the other companions, I wasn't able to ask them about their past in depth.I also felt like Hawke wasn't opinionated enough and that the party members didn't ask for my imput. For example,in Origins,Morrigan and Alistair asked for my opinion on certain subjects.I felt that they valued my viewpoints which builds stronger relationships.

[OhoniX]

I think the best solution is to just have a central "hub" location, or several such places. I have no idea what the setting will be in DA3, if it will be a single city/local region like 2 or a whole country of multiple cities like DA:O, but assuming the latter just have a tavern or other likely space set up as the team's "hang out", and have everyone there when you'd like to talk to them. They wouldn't have to "live" there, one could assume that they have a home elsewhere, just as Isabella probably wasn't literally at the bar 24/7, but by coincidence they'd always happen to be there when you wanted to talk to them.

And I'd definitely love more of the "random chatter" dialog between companions, that stuff was some of my favorite parts of this game.

[jds1bio]

I think a central hub would be livened up a bit if maybe the group shared a meal, or had a party, or a skills competition, or something from time to time. The old trope of the party getting attacked at its campsite works too, but after once or twice that hand is played out.

[Alamar2078]

jds1bio wrote...

I think a central hub would be livened up a bit if maybe the group shared a meal, or had a party, or a skills competition, or something from time to time. The old trope of the party getting attacked at its campsite works too, but after once or twice that hand is played out.

From a gameplay / micromanagement standpoint I missed the "camp" ... Before I sold anything that looked like it might be useful I always liked going through my companion's stuff to see if I could upgrade their armor, weapons, rings, ammys, etc.   I still did it but it was bothersome switching folks into and out of my party inside of Merril's home or somewhere else with a "gather party" device nearby.

[FaeQueenCory]

David Gaider wrote...

...perhaps it simply felt too structured and some level of spontaneity is required-- as in a feeling that the conversation you're having is because you wanted it to happen (whether that's technically true or not, perception is everything).

That hit the nail on the head for me. I don't know about others, but this is precisely why I prefered the way conversations were in Origins.
Personally, I see no reason why there can't be both. (ignoring time, of course) Having the ability to ask the companions random things about them (and learning specs from them... I miss learning the specs...) made them feel more involving to me. But I did like how DA2 made it seem like someone sent me a letter saying they wanted to see me. So having both, I think, would be very organic.
Where sometimes the companions want to talk to you and you get notified of it (mostly for plot) and any time you can just ask them whatever you want about their pasts and whatnot...

[Nyreen]

David Gaider wrote...

I like the idea of companions coming to the mansion / slums to visit Hawke at his house rather than you having to wait through load screens just to have a conversation.  Basically if companions can come to my house to speak to DOG then they can also come to speak to me.

This would solve:
-- Waiting through load screens just to talk to someone in a different area of the city
-- Solves the "calibration" issue
-- If there is a message on your desk [at someone's house] you know it's a real quest or at least that the setting is important [like visiting Merill & the mirror]

We actually considered having more companions come to your home (it does happen in a few instances, after all, like Aveline & Isabela at the end of Act 2). The issue we ran into was with regards to not knowing just how often the player was going to actually return to their home... and the resulting queue of "companions waiting to talk to Hawke" that could result.

Ultimately I think this boils down to splitting the companions up into their individual homes having logistical complications. While I like the idea from a conceptual standpoint, I'm pretty certain I wouldn't do it this way again without addressing some of the functionality.

Hmmm…what if all companions could be in one place, at one time, whenever the player felt like seeing them? Maybe like a fire-side setting, somewhere away from the monotony of a city… 

Modifié par Celestina, 30 avril 2011 - 12:45 .

[Arglefraster]

I found myself very frequently wanting to know more about what my companions were talking about when their context banter would pop and fly when I was running around smacking things.

I wouldn't go anywhere near to calling the characters shallow in their development, bear in mind. The quality of the writing and voice acting alike made it very easy to want to interact more with them, and have more options to feel them out as personalities.

Moreover, the concept of the individual companions having their own homes was pretty cool, though perhaps a bit static. I think the idea would've flown a lot further than I'm finding it to if their personal abodes were, say...optional, or interactive.

For example, it could've been a very neat addition to companion development to have them move out into their own place if you went Rival with them, while they might elsewise be largely staying in the inn.

Alternatively, they might have their individual abodes, though perhaps getting them as Friends could give players the option to invite them to hang out in the mansion in their downtime.

After all, the Hawke manse is a rather empty place, with several rooms that offer no reason to even go into them outside of clicking on the little interaction nodes to hear PCHawke comment on something.

Also, it would've been a snazzy perk if the various companions decorated their homes, perhaps in tandem with the completions of quests that mattered to them. Some of that Junk cluttering up inventory space and selling for trifles could be repurposed as stuff companions might decorate their homes with.

It was never an option to help Fenris clean his dang house, or any such thing as that. Little things like that can chew up little bits of resource space, as well as time on the parts of production staff, but these sorts of things remain the kind've thing that lend a dynamic verisimilitude to a setting.

Basically, the sum of my point is that there are a lot of ways companions could be interacted with that have nothing to do with straight dialogue exchanges, and while many were touched on or hinted at via dialogue, exactly none of them were particularly capitalized on outside the (literally?) token gifts and tiny little environmental changes these only sometimes yielded.

Anyhoo, there's my very sleepily clattered two bits. I'll leave this disjointed ramble as it is, before I start burbling.

Modifié par Arglefraster, 03 mai 2011 - 10:21 .