323 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

tmp7704 wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

I can understand if people say that the voice bothers them, but if the camera pointing at the PC is an immersion breaking detail, then the conversations in Origins should not really be immersive for them.

I think it's more the whole package of the camera pointing at the PC and watching him/her move around there and talk. That really doesn't happen in DAO, after all.

The way I percieved it (and that's only me), is that DA2's system made me feel a certain connection between Hawke and the companions, while DA:O's system was more about me feeling that connection than my lifeless PC who I am supposed to animate (with the power of my mind!).

Both have their pros and cons and need to be taken into context (the grand design). It would not make that much sense for Hawke to be voiced, but not have cinematics alogn with more physical interactions with companions to go along with it imo. 

I like both, though prefer Origins. My main problem with DA2 vis a vis this regard is the amout of time (or lack thereof) and probably resources dedicated for its development, for the sake of a quick cash in.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 25 avril 2011 - 05:16 .

[Zjarcal]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Deztyn wrote...
I didn't have a problem with it in DA2, but being forced to see Shepard recline on the bed looking lost and vulnerable while quietly begging for Liara to come back soon?

Rage!

I just imagined my Shepard revealing a broad smirk after he made sure she left, at the prospect of holding so much power.
Girls like vulnerability last I heard. My Shepard was acting. And was quite good at it. See? Easy to get past that  

LOL!

I can also imagine Liara smirking herself in the elevator thinking  "Oh Shepard, don't forget I see EVERYTHING."

Modifié par Zjarcal, 25 avril 2011 - 05:15 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Zjarcal wrote...
LOL!

I can also imagine Liara smirking herself in the elevator thinking to herself "Oh Shepard, don't forget I see EVERYTHING."

You know, that's why I regret not romancing her in ME1. Use her hormones to keep her in line. 
Why couldn't we initiate a romance in ME2? She certainly looks like she needs it!

[Deztyn]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Deztyn wrote...
I didn't have a problem with it in DA2, but being forced to see Shepard recline on the bed looking lost and vulnerable while quietly begging for Liara to come back soon?

Rage!

I just imagined my Shepard revealing a broad smirk after he made sure she left, at the prospect of holding so much power.

Girls Needy Asari like vulnerability last I heard. My Shepard was acting. And was quite good at it. See? Easy to get past that  

Fixed. 

And Knight, that is now my personal canon. You have redeemed that scene for me. Shepard is just manipulating the new Shadow Broker.

DA2 handled it's scenes much better, thankfully. I can't think of any actions that stood out as awkwardly out of character.

[tmp7704]

[quote]Lenimph wrote...

The Warden didnt talk. Would you have liked to watch the warden "speak"?[/quote]
My like or dislike has nothing to do with it. It's simply something that wasn't present in DAO.

[quote]And if you want to go prove a point why don't you go count and show us some of your almighty evidence but as for now... 
 here's some of that smexy Hawke shoulder [/quote]
[/quote]
And it's fairly obvious it's Isabela's turn to talk in that screenshot, not Hawke's. Find one like that while Hawke is speaking, and we're talking.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Deztyn wrote...
And Knight, that is now my personal canon. You have redeemed that scene for me. Shepard is just manipulating the new Shadow Broker.

My pleasure.

Practise the smirk

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 25 avril 2011 - 05:23 .

[In Exile]

hoorayforicecream wrote...
I actually found that the companion quests heavily codependent with the main quests made them feel much more important to the game and the story progression. If the companion quests are excised from the game's critical path, it really makes the companions themselves feel significantly more superfluous.

I meant their timer. To catch a theif works where it is, but why I am only getitng Merril's quest after visiting the Arishok? Since I might do a lot of side-quests in between, this just makes it feel even more game-y.

I liked that the companions were all important to the plot and I wouldn't want that to change.

Blastback wrote...
That'd
work .  Ideally you'd have companion dialogues that where
releated
to various quests, but I'd like to see more just "getting to
know
you" dialogues.  That's something that DA2 felt like it lacked. 
All
the conversations felt like they were soley related to the
character's
one or two specific issues and their quests. I missed
haveing
conversations where it felt like two friends just chating.

I just wanted to ask them questions. It's not that we needed to talk about a lot, but even with ME and ME2, it was Shepard that went to talk to the team, not the other way around. It feels like the DA2 team talks to you on their terms, not the other way around.

[In Exile]

tmp7704 wrote...

* Morrigan potentially gains the first friend in her entire life, and realizes what it means to have one.

ç

And then Morrigain is identical as a person. Same values. Same goals. Same beliefs. Same interactions with others. Morrigain likes one person.

* Oghren moves on from pining after his missing wife, and starts a relationship with another woman.

Who he immediately abandons to kill stuff. We get to see in DA:A that Oghren is the same person. It's magical, really.

* Zevran learns to trust another person enough to open his heart to them, and/or breaks from his dependency/servitude with the Crows.

...And yet stays the same person, with the same goals, beliefs, etc.

* Wynne reconciles with her first student she thought she'd failed, the idea which haunted her entire life.

...And is totally the same person.

* Sten learns that people can succesfully operate without performing what's judged to be their predestined role, which basically goes against the very foundation of his mindset.

No, that's just wrong. Sten learns that a Grey Warden (whose role is to stop the Blight) is succesful at stopping the blight. That's like... the most visible and real affirmation of his world view possible.

You can remove the Warden from the view at this point as you suggest, and these changes to the personalities will persist. So, plenty of character development there left, right and centre, i'd say.

If by changes to their personalities, you mean them being exactly the same person who would react the same way at the start or end of the game to a similar situation, then yes, they've grown.

[Lenimph]

tmp7704 wrote...


My like or dislike has nothing to do with it. It's simply something that wasn't present in DAO.


And it's fairly obvious it's Isabela's turn to talk in that screenshot, not Hawke's. Find one like that while Hawke is speaking, and we're talking.

 And the warden had turns to "talk"  ?

[In Exile]

Addai67 wrote...
If the Warden has befriended her, she is significantly different.  Considering where she started, acknowledging one true friend or love and doing something (the DR) out of selflessness as much as her own motive is huge. 

No, it isn't, because when it comes right down to it Morrigain stays on task. She never tells you the goal of the DR except in vague terms. In a romance, she only says she cares about you and that it will end badly.

Morrigain doesn't change her values, her beliefs, hear dealings with people... nothing. She isn't at all different. She just likes another person.

Again, I disagree.  He wants to do something with more purpose and has broken free of the Crows both mentally and in actuality.

But as you pointed out, this was something he was doing already. He was mostly there; not being a douche to him is all that it takes for him to make-up his mind.

Alistair doesn't change all that much even with hardening.  If you're going to discount everything but major orientation changes, you're really only left with Leliana.

Alistair changes his values dramatically. A hardened Alistair will allow Loghain to live and rule with Anora; he'll sacrifice his desire to avenge Duncan over the greater good, and that's a dramatic shift.

[In Exile]

Brockololly wrote...
Eh, I'd disagree, especially about Morrigan- sure she still does the DR and all that, but if you're friendly with her she comes to view the Warden  as a true friend or practically a sister, or more than that if you  romance her. Certainly it doesn't cause her to undergo a 180, but her  motivations for the DR are changed if you're friendly or romancing her  as she sees it as a means to not lose the friend/lover she gained. So  while her entire worldview might not change, its arguably more  significant than even Isabela's, especially then if you were to add in  how she trusts a romancing Warden enough to follow her through the Eluvian in Witch Hunt.

Its not even close that you could honestly say she's the same person as she was at the start of Origins

You can't count DLC content as character development; that just wasn't in DA:O.

What we have is what Morrigain says with the DR, and the dialogue isn't that different. Her motivations for the DR are the same - obtain the soul of the old good. When you are in a romance, she says that the fact it will save your life makes it all the more imperative to do it, but the goal and her mission are unchanged; it's sad for her to leave you, but it doesn't matter.

Morrigain doesn't change. She doesn't value the lives of others more. 

Isabella gets a moral compass in a much more serious way; she's comparable to Alistair in that way.

[fchopin]

Maria Caliban wrote...

fchopin wrote...
Then please remove the cinematics for dialogue as it's impossible for me to get immersed with dialogue or companions, use cinematics in other ways but not in this, dialogue is very important for role playing.

fchopin wrote...
I was connected with all the companions in DAO, did not matter if i liked them or not.

How could you connect with the companions in DA:O if cinematics make it impossible to do so?

I could talk to the companions almost any time i wanted in DAO, i could ask them about their life and get to know them, no cinematics were necessary.
 
Even if they had nothing to say i could still talk to them and they would reply.
 
If they replied in a cinematic way that is fine as i am not role playing my companions but only my character.

[Lenimph]

fchopin wrote...


Even if they had nothing to say i could still talk to them and they would reply.
 

"I think I need a bath, do you think I need a bath?" -Isabela DA2

Modifié par Lenimph, 25 avril 2011 - 05:50 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Lenimph wrote...

fchopin wrote...


Even if they had nothing to say i could still talk to them and they would reply.
 

"I think I need a bath, do you think I need a bath?" -Isabela DA2

When she keeps saying that over the course of 7 years, then *inhales* implications unpleasant. 

[Zjarcal]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

When she keeps saying that over the course of 7 years, then *inhales* implications unpleasant. 

She also kept asking what was that smell... and then saying it was her. 

[Lenimph]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...


When she keeps saying that over the course of 7 years, then *inhales* implications unpleasant. 

It became Isabela and my Hawke's code for "I will be naked and wet later... you are invited to get naked and wet with me"  

[knarayan]

David Gaider wrote...

...I'll simply ask you in the most snide and arrogant tone possible to keep providing such useful and thoughtful feedback. Even if it doesn't seem like we're coming to the conclusions you think we should be, it's still very much appreciated.

David,
Can you give us some idea of what kind of DAO feedback influenced DAII. From what I can see, the main gripe that seems to have been handled was that all the whinging about the Warden's silent participation in conversations. It just seems that DAII was more influenced by ME II and its massive critical success than the original game.

I know I will probably get a Qunari answer here, but I will ask anyway  - can you tell us how close is DA II to your vision of what you thought it should be?


 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Zjarcal wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

When she keeps saying that over the course of 7 years, then *inhales* implications unpleasant. 

She also kept asking what was that smell... and then saying it was her. 

....That I did not hear.

Great, you just made Isabela more repulsive to me.

[tmp7704]

In Exile wrote...

And then Morrigain is identical as a person. Same values. Same goals. Same beliefs. Same interactions with others. Morrigain likes one person.

Morrigan who didn't believe in friendship and Morrigan who understands what it is like to have a friend has the same beliefs? How, exactly?

Who he immediately abandons to kill stuff. We get to see in DA:A that Oghren is the same person. It's magical, really.

At the beginning of Awakening Oghren is different person than he was at the end of DA. He has tried to form a relationship different than one he had previously, and it ended in a failure because of his own shortcomings and doubts. That if anything is more of character development, not lack of one. I also don't know how you equal Awakening Oghren with the one at the beginning of DAO -- in DAO he didn't abandon his wife, it was the other way around. And they definitely didn't separate because Oghren wanted to "kill stuff".

...And yet stays the same person, with the same goals, beliefs, etc.

Zevran at the beginning of DAO wouldn't allow himself to love another person. Zevran at the end of game does. Again, how is that exactly the same beliefs?

...And is totally the same person.

And again empty statement. How is Wynne who was feeling guilt over the idea she'd failed her first student "totally the same person" with Wynne who doesn't?

No, that's just wrong. Sten learns that a Grey Warden (whose role is to stop the Blight) is succesful at stopping the blight. That's like... the most visible and real affirmation of his world view possible.

No. Sten learns that Grey Wardens aren't born and raised to be Grey Wardens. That person who isn't a warrior and explicitly tells him so can actually perform such a role. And that person can even be a woman, which is completely out of realm of his initial understanding. He as much as openly questions your character about this matter, after all. If that was confirmation of his world view, what would he need to question about it?

If by changes to their personalities, you mean them being exactly the same person who would react the same way at the start or end of the game to a similar situation, then yes, they've grown.

That's nonsense. The characters who do undergo these particular personal developments acknowledge it in their dialogue. The ones who don't undergo these development, don't. They don't react the same in some situations.

Modifié par tmp7704, 25 avril 2011 - 06:02 .

[In Exile]

LobselVith8 wrote...
I was addressing that the development from the codex entries wasn't shown, and I think it should have been. It's my opinion, of course, but I think it would have helped strengthen the relationships with the companions.

But you do see it. You don't get the codex entry until you first speak to the companion. Merril's a beautiful example:

In year 7, Varric visits her to get her to go outside. She refuses. Hawke comes. They talk. Eventually she admits Varric is right. Then you get the codex entry that says she was consumed by the mirror; but you already saw she was consumed by the mirror.

Or with Anders. After dissent, he is broken up about Ella. He says he wants to abandon his quest. But by Year 7 he's back at it, even more committed than ever.

Except when dialogue was chosen for the Warden, it's often what he said (except for the line where he hardened the personality of Alistair); when dialogue is chosen for Hawke, it can be (and often is) radically different than what was intended (such as the "you're useless" option for Grand Cleric Elthina). I feel that it hurts immersion.

Personal preference for dialogue presentation is a can of worms in itself, and I think we should agree to disagree and focus on more of the substance re: the characters.

I don't think there wasn't any character development, but I feel that the ties to the companions weren't as strong as they were in Origins.

I agree with you that the personal connection the game strove to establish was done better in DA:O than in DA2. I just don't think the characters underwent more development in DA:O.

That's true, but you can determine what Orzammar's future will be like by choosing the next ruler and whether the Anvil will be spared; you can choose to help or abandon the people of Redcliffe; you can side with the elves, the werewolves, or help both of them; you can save the mages or argue for their destruction. The Warden had the opportunity to change the world around him even though there were some linear elements to the storyline. Hawke never has the opportunity to change Darktown, the Alienage, investigate the "O" letter, or be proactive like the Warden was. I hope this issue is rectified in DLC or an expansion.

We can't compare scope because DA2 just doesn't have that scope. But in terms of execution, DA2 does the same thing. Like with the Arishok - let him live and walk away with Isabella, or duel him, or refuse to duel and fight him and his men, etc. You have multiple solutions to the same quest.

Bioware hasn't changed their formula; they just changed the scope, and to some people it was the scope that led to satisfaction. Those decisions were always flavour to me because they were irrelevant gameplay wise, and I got the same fuzzy feeling from saving the Werewolves in DA:O when I helped the Starkhaven mages in DA2.

From an RP standpoint the consequence is irrelevant, and from a consequence standpoint DA:O shows as much as DA2.

But the problem is some quests force you to do them, even when you've turned them down. It's the illusion of choice.

So does DA:O. DA:O even stops giving you the option of turning anythign down after Flemeth's hut. You can complain about fleeing and you're just railroaded. This what Bioware does - do it because the plot demands it. Some people just seem to have bought the role of the Wardens more.

That would have explained why Hawke would have to accomplish some of the quests, as Meredith uses the same threat to force Hawke to do "On the Loose."

Lots of ways to do it, but I think Bioware wanted to allow players to fill in their own reason for why Hawke does what he does, in the same way that they let you fill in the why for the Warden.

Modifié par In Exile, 25 avril 2011 - 05:56 .

[Zjarcal]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

When she keeps saying that over the course of 7 years, then *inhales* implications unpleasant. 

She also kept asking what was that smell... and then saying it was her. 

....That I did not hear.

Great, you just made Isabela more repulsive to me.

You only get that line if you're rival. She first asks "What's that smell? Is that you... oh wait, it's just me." 

Modifié par Zjarcal, 25 avril 2011 - 05:57 .

[tmp7704]

Lenimph wrote...
And the warden had turns to "talk"  ?

... He/she didn't. Which is the very point how these two games do the dialogue cinematics in considerably different manners.

[Lenimph]

tmp7704 wrote...

Lenimph wrote...
And the warden had turns to "talk"  ?

... He/she didn't. Which is the very point how these two games do the dialogue cinematics in considerably different manners.

 MHm and would you like to continue comparing the Sun and the Moon?

[Brangwen]

I just read this thread.

Fascinating!

I must say, I felt polarised by the characters in the game far more than DA:O because they were far stronger in personality, independence and extremes of behaviour than DA:O. So, I strongly connected with some, and not with others (urgh Fenris). I'm not sure if this is an unintended side effect of bloody good writing or not. Even on repeat playings I find it VERY difficult to pick differing conversation reactions because of the maniuplation of story and perception (which works almost too well on me!) for me to define "what is right" for me. I just can't do it! This makes exploration of NPCs kind of hard. *twitch* I didnt find this in DA:O and was able to explore the game and the characters a lot more. I found that far more engaging and I felt more connected to them. But, it also made the game much more bland, story wise. I found awakenings kicked origins butt in terms of plot and story. Origins was pretty stock standard fantasy (not dissing it, stock standard is popular for a reason). While I understand that people are struggling with engagement in DA:II, I am seeing some pretty strong opinions on certain characters. Is an issue that people want to engage with ALL characters lesser extent than 1 or two to a greater extent? I have no idea if that is the case, just throwing an idea out there. Personally, I am enjoying engaging with 1 or 2, but for that to really work, I would have liked deeper bonds (in terms of conversations and dialogue trees) to have formed with them, and tighter friendships/LIs. Ie more of a reward for persuing that NPC and really bonding with them (both as a best/rivalous buddy or LI).

I also agree with some statements made about NPCs interacting with each other. I did feel left on the outer quite often. What sticks in my mind is that everytime I went for a marked quest to an NPC, the character who was having a conversation with the NPC I was about to talk to "left" because they saw that I was "more important". I felt somewhat isolated by these repeated introductions to a cinematic. Another example was after the 3 year gap where Donnic and Avaline get married. I hadn't thought to read the codex and there were characters bantering about the wedding. I felt ... disconnected with what was going on/had gone on because I didn't know! It seemed really important and it was pushed to a codex. Codex entries are just so impersonal, almost an archival after thought! A wedding? Your status with your LI? in a codex? It made me feel a bit yuk.

I would have liked (and this is something I felt in DA:O as well) more "group" conversations/plot exposition/RPG. Some of the DLC did that a bit more, and I liked that. I mean, not all conversations/cinematics need be directly related to plot! do they? Group dynamic is kind of important when you are relying on each other for your lives. It's also the foundation for story, which drives gameplay. You can have the best mechanics in the world, but RPGs are no good without plot and story. Otherwise you just have a FPS, heh, even FPS's are getting plot and story these days! (not that I can play them, I get motion sickness )

Cinematics - they seem to be a real technical sticking point from an RPG PoV, but I thought they were a great enhancement to my immersion in the world. I felt DA:II had a much stronger RPG focus than origins did and cinematics had a great effect on me in relation to this. Regarding the ambient conversation, is there any reason the Hawke character couldn't join in, but simply react based on the dominant personality type (ie no dialog choices)? Would that be a decent compromise there? Perhaps the ambient conversations could trigger "quest" conversations later on where you can clarify or change your auto response to the NPCs in question.

TL;DR it seems there needs to be some more illusion of choice going on with regards conversations (and therefore RPG immersion) as what choice is in DA:II seems to be seen through pretty easily for what it is. I think that probably means some even MORE clever setups and plot. DARN these clever, insightful passionate fans complaining about the teeny tiny parts that they like slightly less than the rest of the game

[tmp7704]

Lenimph wrote...

MHm and would you like to continue comparing the Sun and the Moon?

Could you clarify your point? It's certainly possible to compare the Sun and the Moon if your goal is to determine and/or show how these two differ. Much like it's possible to compare the same mechanics in two games also to show how they differ.