32 réponses à ce sujet

[rma2110]

I have a theory, and no it's not bunnies. Not this time anyway. I think it's Varric that proects Mage!Hawke\\Bethany from the templars. We all know he throws money around to protect Daisy and he would happily do the same for Sunshine. It's not a coinsidence that the templars pounce on poor Bethany the minute Varric is away in the deep roads.

Whay say you guys? Is Varric the possible source of Hawke's priviledge before becooming Kirkwall's Champion? Why was Bethany arrested but Merill left alone? I love Merill and would never wish the Circle on any mage, but Merill is clearly the more dangerous mage.

Modifié par rma2110, 23 avril 2011 - 09:51 .

[Zkyire]

rma2110 wrote...

I have a theory, and no it's not bunnies. Not this time anyway. I think it's Varric that proects Mage!HawkeBethany from the templars. We all know he throws money around to protect Daisy and he would happily do the same for Sunshine. It's not a coinsidence that the templars pounce on poor Bethany the minute Varric is away in the deep roads.

Whay say you guys? Is Varric the possible source of Hawke's priviledge before becooming Kirkwall's Champion? Why was Bethany arrested but Merill left alone? I love Merill and would never wish the Circle on any mage, but Merill is clearly the more dangerous mage.

Likely. I think he also mentioned something about keeping the Coterie away from Anders' clinic too.

Basically, Varric's the real hero of the story.

[Icy Magebane]

There is no way that I'm willing to believe that coin would motivate that many templars to look the other way. A few, sure, but when Hawke or one of his apostate buddies starts casting fireballs right in front of Cullen, that theory goes out the window. It's just a matter of ignoring lore for the sake of a less complex experience. Eh... if this sounds rude at all, I mean no offense to you personally. I only mean that Bioware was sloppy in their execution. It's the same reason you can be a blood mage with no consequences.

[Trelnam]

A bit off topic to that,but I find it quite funny that if you make a group with 4 mage(or even 1 is enough tho) and walk around templers with your staffs and robes like other mages,yet they dont even respond to that.So not sure if Varric has role in that but its a logical to think that way too.

[highcastle]

Gameplay and story segregation, guys. While it might not make sense in lore for Hawke to hurl fireballs with Cullen looking over him, it also wouldn't be fun to imagine Hawke just sort of standing there while the rest of the party gave Wilmod a beat down. So you as the player get to keep casting spells during the battle. But what probably happened in the story is that Hawke maybe attacked with his staff as a physical weapon, possibly casting small spells here and there when Cullen was otherwise occupied, and generally didn't flaunt his nature. Since this wouldn't be as fun to play, that's not what happens during gameplay.

On topic: It wouldn't surprise me if Varric helped keep the templars at bay while Hawke was in Lowtown. In addition to protecting Daisy, he also pays off the Carta and others to leave Anders alone. It'd make sense that he'd extend that same protection to Hawke, at least until he became too important a figure in Kirkwall for the templars to arrest.

[Eternal Phoenix]

Templar "Hey Hawke. Seen any mages that aren't in the circle about? I really hate mages. If you can get away with it, kill any you find like I do."

Mage Hawke "I haven't seen any but I'll go search for some" *magically teleports off*

Templar "Nice guy. Maker bless him."

[Rifneno]

highcastle wrote...

Gameplay and story segregation, guys. While it might not make sense in lore for Hawke to hurl fireballs with Cullen looking over him, it also wouldn't be fun to imagine Hawke just sort of standing there while the rest of the party gave Wilmod a beat down. So you as the player get to keep casting spells during the battle. But what probably happened in the story is that Hawke maybe attacked with his staff as a physical weapon, possibly casting small spells here and there when Cullen was otherwise occupied, and generally didn't flaunt his nature. Since this wouldn't be as fun to play, that's not what happens during gameplay.

On topic: It wouldn't surprise me if Varric helped keep the templars at bay while Hawke was in Lowtown. In addition to protecting Daisy, he also pays off the Carta and others to leave Anders alone. It'd make sense that he'd extend that same protection to Hawke, at least until he became too important a figure in Kirkwall for the templars to arrest.

The best solution to the Cullen thing would've been to have the demon knock Cullen out or stun him.  Temporarily incapacitate him somehow.  Then when the battle is over and Hawke/Bethany/Anders is done raining hellfire and brimstone Cullen can recover.  Maybe even if Hawke has sarcastic personality they could do a little back and forth about all the clearly magical destruction "the demons" caused, plants on fire and such.  But instead...  =/

As for Varric, it's certainly possible.  I believe he wasn't bribing the templars directly, he was bribing the local lowlives from turning in Anders to the templars.  I doubt they intended it as such, but you could make the case that the reason Bethany finally gets taken by the templars is because Varric wasn't around to keep up on payments.  He's a mandatory character for the Deep Roads and they mention that it's a week of travel each way to the Primordial Thaig.

[rma2110]

Let's not forget that the Templars might now want to play really nice with the dwarves because they bring illyrium. Varric is no Aeducan but his family may be an important merchant family.

I know, I'm probably just letting my imagination run wild. Feel free to ignore me.

[AlexXIV]

rma2110 wrote...

I have a theory, and no it's not bunnies. Not this time anyway. I think it's Varric that proects Mage!HawkeBethany from the templars. We all know he throws money around to protect Daisy and he would happily do the same for Sunshine. It's not a coinsidence that the templars pounce on poor Bethany the minute Varric is away in the deep roads.

Whay say you guys? Is Varric the possible source of Hawke's priviledge before becooming Kirkwall's Champion? Why was Bethany arrested but Merill left alone? I love Merill and would never wish the Circle on any mage, but Merill is clearly the more dangerous mage.

Can I hear the bunny theory before I decide?

[rma2110]

AlexXIV wrote...
Can I hear the bunny theory before I decide?

Sure:

Bunnies arn't just cute like everybody supposes
They've got them hoppy feet and twitchy little noses
And what's with all the carrots?
What do they need such good eyesight for anyway?
Bunnies! Bunnies! It must be bunnies.

Nobody got the Buffy referance? Makes me kind of sad. Anya is my favorite vengance demon. Sorry Justice. I bet you're sorry you asked now.

Modifié par rma2110, 23 avril 2011 - 05:03 .

[Icy Magebane]

So even if we disregard the lack of any consequences linked to being a mage... there are no honest templars in Kirkwall? Every one of them is a slave to coin? And why don't normal citizens report them... I mean, I guess we have to keep ignoring the fact that they fight gang members right in the middle of town every night (more open displays of magic)... eh... I'm just not seeing it. I know that they were sloppy in making the game, so this theory just isn't going to do it for me. I understand that it would be complicated to program and design, but Kirkwall is not a safe place to be an apostate. They keep reinforcing that the entire time you're playing... so if they weren't going to make a separate experience where you either had to live outside Kirkwall and could only enter the city while disguised... or maybe penalize you for using magic within the city (Templar attacks or a wanted level...). Mage and Warrior/Rogue should have been separate experiences... The way this game is set up is illogical.

Whatever... they just could have done more. I am not giving them a pass on this.

[ejoslin]

Not all mages walking around are apostates. Wynne was not an apostate for instance, but had a lot of freedom of movement.

In one "coersion" that Varric does, he introduces Hawke as "Enchanter Hawke from the Denerim Circle," who was there to help hunt for apostate mages. Which the templar bought, which makes me think that while a situation like that is unusual, it's not unheard of.

Basically, the first year Hawke was protected by the mercenaries or smugglers. Then things started getting more difficult. But Hawke was friends with Aveline and instrumental in her becoming captain of the guard. Hawke saved the Viscount's son and got rid of a violent mercenary group at the same time. Hawke saved Cullen's life. None of this was enough to save Bethany as soon as Hawke was gone, but it gave mage!Hawke protection.

In act 2, Hawke have a lot of wealth on top of favors owed. Hawke is also the go-between between the city and the Qanari. It doesn't stop Meredith from threatening Hawke, and the templars are both aware of mage!Hawke and keeping an eye on her so they would know how powerful she is. As long as she's helping the city, the alternative is to lose many many people before bringing her in and making her tranquil.

Act 3, you're seen as a protector of the city, the champion. While mages are feared, templars are hated as well. Since Meredith is trying to take over the city, taking in Hawke and most likely making her tranquil would be downright stupid.

At least, those are my mental gymnastics.

[LobselVith8]

The problem is mage Hawke never provides the perspective of an apostate. Guardsmen and templars seem to have selective amnesia when they witness him or any apostate with him performing magic, and the developers never bothered to accomodate the notion of an apostate in the central base of power for templars over eastern Thedas. It reads as very lazy storytelling.

[kreite]

how come nobody else thought of this?

[Auroras]

rma2110 wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...
Can I hear the bunny theory before I decide?

Sure:

Bunnies arn't just cute like everybody supposes
They've got them hoppy feet and twitchy little noses
And what's with all the carrots?
What do they need such good eyesight for anyway?
Bunnies! Bunnies! It must be bunnies.

Nobody got the Buffy referance? Makes me kind of sad. Anya is my favorite vengance demon. Sorry Justice. I bet you're sorry you asked now.

As soon as I saw 'bunnies' in your first post, I started humming that song to myself.

[Ulicus]

highcastle wrote...

Gameplay and story segregation, guys. While it might not make sense in lore for Hawke to hurl fireballs with Cullen looking over him, it also wouldn't be fun to imagine Hawke just sort of standing there while the rest of the party gave Wilmod a beat down. So you as the player get to keep casting spells during the battle. But what probably happened in the story is that Hawke maybe attacked with his staff as a physical weapon, possibly casting small spells here and there when Cullen was otherwise occupied, and generally didn't flaunt his nature. Since this wouldn't be as fun to play, that's not what happens during gameplay.

This, basically.

My guess is that when Varric tells Cassandra stuff like "so, Hawke kicked the **** out of the Ferelden deserters, saving the captain's life" she just automatically imagines him/her slinging spells around because that's more awesome.

Did I mention that I love the framed narrative?

Modifié par Ulicus, 23 avril 2011 - 10:07 .

[Rifneno]

ejoslin wrote...

Not all mages walking around are apostates. Wynne was not an apostate for instance, but had a lot of freedom of movement.

In one "coersion" that Varric does, he introduces Hawke as "Enchanter Hawke from the Denerim Circle," who was there to help hunt for apostate mages. Which the templar bought, which makes me think that while a situation like that is unusual, it's not unheard of.

But the key is that in both those situations the Circle mage was from the far more lenient Ferelden Circle.  I get the impression Irving stays in the Tower because of his responsibilities, not because he wouldn't be allowed out.  He doesn't even bother asking permission before agreeing to head to Redcliffe for Connor, he knows Gregior will be okay with it.  On the other hand, Orsino is afraid to go get a gallon of milk by the end because Meredith will claim he was part of a blood mage group with no evidence other than "you weren't here, so you were probably with them."  I don't see Kirkwall's Circle letting any of their mages roam around with the PC willingly.  After 6 years we can't take Bethany out for drinks.

[Riona45]

rma2110 wrote...
Is Varric the possible source of Hawke's priviledge before becooming Kirkwall's Champion?

Yes, in my opinion he is one source at least.  It's never stated outright in the game, but it seems like something he would do.

[ImoenBaby]

highcastle wrote...
 While it might not make sense in lore for Hawke to hurl fireballs with Cullen looking over him, it also wouldn't be fun to imagine Hawke just sort of standing there while the rest of the party gave Wilmod a beat down. 

An older Bioware game actually did implement a kind of mage police, and unless you paid the large fee (or defeated the mage police, which arrived in increasingly powerful waves), you did not use magic in public. Gameplay conformed to the setting's lore,and although I think some enemy mage npcs were exempt from the rules, it was a good challenge.

I can see how my idea of a "good challenge" wouldn't be everyone's cup of tea, and maybe Bioware learned from this experience. But if you want to create a setting that restricts magic and explore the reasons why, I think gameplay should be consistent with this framework. If the player's free use of magic can't be avoided, has no consequences, and is generally ignored by the game world, why even bother with an anti-magic society in the first place?

[Riona45]

ImoenBaby wrote...

An older Bioware game actually did implement a kind of mage police, and unless you paid the large fee (or defeated the mage police, which arrived in increasingly powerful waves), you did not use magic in public. Gameplay conformed to the setting's lore,and although I think some enemy mage npcs were exempt from the rules, it was a good challenge.

That was Baldur's Gate 2.  Although, the "mage police" thing only applied in the actual city of Athkatla and only when you were on the streets.  Cast magic indoors or underground, and no one cared.

[Rifneno]

ImoenBaby wrote...

An older Bioware game actually did implement a kind of mage police, and unless you paid the large fee (or defeated the mage police, which arrived in increasingly powerful waves), you did not use magic in public. Gameplay conformed to the setting's lore,and although I think some enemy mage npcs were exempt from the rules, it was a good challenge.

I can see how my idea of a "good challenge" wouldn't be everyone's cup of tea, and maybe Bioware learned from this experience. But if you want to create a setting that restricts magic and explore the reasons why, I think gameplay should be consistent with this framework. If the player's free use of magic can't be avoided, has no consequences, and is generally ignored by the game world, why even bother with an anti-magic society in the first place?

Oh man, I miss those Cowled Wizard waves.  They were a great source for some high level scrolls or something before going to Spellhold.  I don't know why anyone paid the fee, it was so much more profitable to just kill them until they learned to stop sticking their nose where it hurts.

Anyway I think the best way they could've went about Hawke's using magic is to make Hawke a mage no matter what.  Before anyone throws a chair at me, giving the option of having Hawke play as a warrior or rogue and kind of be in denial of his/her magery (is that a word?).  So they could still do the "omg, Hawke's a mage!  get him/her/it!" twists while still letting you play whatever class you wanted.

[bearonthecouch]

Yes. Varric was definitely protecting Mage Hawke. If you talk to him for long enough at the very first meeting and ask him "Why should I work with you on the Deep Roads thing?", he'll outright say that he knows you're ducking Templars and he can help you out with that since he knows everyone that matters in the city.

[Nightdragon8]

The money doesn't have to be a bribe straight to the templars, he can also pay people to tell false rumors about "other" mages in the city thus keeping them off of Bethany's trail and magehawke, Varric probably had a setup for Bethany cause from what it seems Varric really likes Bethany. But considering what happened in the deeproads the bribe money ran out or the templars could have gotten wise to it.

Also is it just me or does it seem most templars are running a few fries short of a happy meal. I mean in DAO most of them where a joke, dont get me started on the one guarding the tower of mages, (come on giving up your post for cookies, i at least respect him for trying to bed Moragan)

[Salaya]

If thats the case, why no mention or point such a crucial aspect for the game's plot?

But its an interesting idea, yes