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[Lalue]

a Codex says:
The mage Circle of Kirkwall have a more troubled history than those in other Circles. A greater percentage of them do not survive the Harrowing, and a greater percentage turn to blood magic - almost double that of Starkhaven or Ostwick. Is there a secret fraternity delving into the Tevinter secrets of this city?

I guess it explain the high number of blood mages in Kirkwall.

I would like an option, siding with Templars but not being made viscount...is that in game and i missed it?

Modifié par Lalue, 23 avril 2011 - 11:18 .

[Saerwen]

@Lailue~ I got the ending you are asking about. I can't elborate as this is a no spoiler topic. Sorry.

[snackrat]

If you don't annul the circle, Kirkwall's citizens will riot and do it themselves. You know, on account of Janders *spoiler spoiler spoiler* all the widows and orphans. It's about averting a crisis.

Also: have you not noticed that merely leaving the Kirkwall circle will instantly turn every mage into a blood mage, abomination, batsh** insane or any combination thereof...? Methinks them not so good for the freedom thang.

Don't get me wrong, before the game came out I was thinking 'why would ANYONE go Templar?' but the more I play the more I hate mages. Even if I AM one. It's a blood-mage bonanza.

[Whisky]

This is a game, do what you think is fun. Killing (in games) can be fun too despite the fact that it is wrong (in reality).
If DA2 were real, I would side with the mages if I'm a mage simply because I don't want to die. Otherwise, I would definitely side with the templars after all the crazy blood mages I've seen.

[LobselVith8]

Elton John is dead wrote...

Every mage who breaks away from the circle turns to blood magic.

This isn't accurate.

Elton John is dead wrote...

The Tevinitir Imprimiumumumumim who has mages ruling them are all blood mages who support slavery and seek more power at anyone's cost.

And who enslave mages and non-mages alike.

Elton John is dead wrote...

Templars are always needed. Even if you side with the Templars - it doesn't mean you support Meredith who you can defy during many dialogues and even claim at several points that her way is not the right way but still support Templars existing to watch mages.

Actually, it does, since Hawke is doing her dirty work.

[LobselVith8]

Elton John is dead wrote...

And quite honestly, you don't have two sympathetic mages. As you know as soon as you meet them - they're both possessed by demons and are pretty much disconnected from Hawke and the rest of the party more than any other companions - only caring about their own goals.

Merrill isn't possessed by a demon. Can you please stop saying that in every thread? It isn't accurate, but you keep repeating it ad nauseum. And I found Merrill to be very sympathetic, considering she's focusing on trying to save her people.

[snackrat]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Elton John is dead wrote...

Every mage who breaks away from the circle turns to blood magic.

This isn't accurate.

Elton John is dead wrote...

The Tevinitir Imprimiumumumumim who has mages ruling them are all blood mages who support slavery and seek more power at anyone's cost.

And who enslave mages and non-mages alike.

Elton John is dead wrote...

Templars are always needed. Even if you side with the Templars - it doesn't mean you support Meredith who you can defy during many dialogues and even claim at several points that her way is not the right way but still support Templars existing to watch mages.

Actually, it does, since Hawke is doing her dirty work.

1: Not in overall Lore, but like 99% of Kirkwall apostates do, even if for the sake of "gameplay fun"
.
2: They enslave the mages WHO DON'T USE BLOOD MAGIC, as mentioned by Fenris many times. The only people that can lead ARE mages/magisters, and ONLY if they use blood magic.

3: "We are here to avert a crisis, not raze everything in out path." You can side with templars against blood mages, yet when Meredith runs around demanding you slaughter every single one you can spare several that have not used blood magic even to spare themselves. GRANTED - supporting templars from the beginning of ACT III is actually supporting Meredith on the seat of power. But after that, it is more anti-bloodmage than pro-Meredith-ruling-Kirkwall.

[LobselVith8]

Karsciyin wrote...

1: Not in overall Lore, but like 99% of Kirkwall apostates do, even if for the sake of "gameplay fun"

The problem is it's equating mage antagonists we encounter outside of the Gallows with mages we never actually meet (for the most part) who are inside of the Gallows.

Karsciyin wrote...

2: They enslave the mages WHO DON'T USE BLOOD MAGIC, as mentioned by Fenris many times. The only people that can lead ARE mages/magisters, and ONLY if they use blood magic.

They enslave mages, period. They enslave non-mages and mages. Fenris' point was that Magisters turn to blood magic to gain an advantage over their opponents, but Fenris is admittedly biased against the Imperium. Regardless, they enslave both mages and non-mages.

We know that the mage tolerant societies like the Chasind Wilders, the kingdom of Rivain, the Dalish clans, and the Avaar tribes don't have Magister-type mages forcing the enslavement of mages and non-mages like the Imperium does.

Karsciyin wrote...

3: "We are here to avert a crisis, not raze everything in out path."

Tell that to the men, women, and children of the Circle who are murdered.

Karsciyin wrote...

You can side with templars against blood mages, yet when Meredith runs around demanding you slaughter every single one you can spare several that have not used blood magic even to spare themselves.

We see three mages spared. And Gaider addressed that the mages spared in the Right of Annulment are made tranquil.

Karsciyin wrote...

GRANTED - supporting templars from the beginning of ACT III is actually supporting Meredith on the seat of power. But after that, it is more anti-bloodmage than pro-Meredith-ruling-Kirkwall.

At the end, it's supporting the massacre of people who are innocent of the act that an apostate commits.

[Red Panda]

1. Become viscount
2. Kill Anders
3. Do the world a favor by cutting down the ninja blood mage population
4. Templars look cooler
5. Don't side with the indirect murderer of your mother
6. Everyone dies anyway
7. Profit
8. Have a puppet to rule Starkhaven with
9. Fenris shuts up about mages

There you go, thread closed. (get it?)

Modifié par OperatingWookie, 24 avril 2011 - 05:05 .

[Whisky]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Tell that to the men, women, and children of the Circle who are murdered.

At the end, it's supporting the massacre of people who are innocent of the act that an apostate commits.

They are not that innocent. On my first playthrough I sided with the mages because I thought it's the right thing to do, but not. Even if I sided with them mages, they still turned on me. Blood mages FROM THE CIRCLE summons hundreds waves of demons to attack ME, who sided with them. They don't attack the templars, they only attack ME. They have been practicing blood magic heavily in the Circle to gain the ability to summon that many demons. One just doesn't simply summon demons out of thin air AND control them (Remember how Avernus failed to control only 2 demons?). Then there's this guy called Orsino... ugh. After deciding that I've had enough of them mages, I sided with the templars.

[LobselVith8]

Whisky wrote...

They are not that innocent.

I addressed they were innocent of the act Anders commits.

Whisky wrote...

On my first playthrough I sided with the mages because I thought it's the right thing to do, but not. Even if I sided with them mages, they still turned on me. Blood mages FROM THE CIRCLE summons hundreds waves of demons to attack ME, who sided with them.

You mean abominations. That's not a surprise that we see abominations in Kirkwall, where we see one possessed individual conjure abominations from thin air the first time we meet Cullen (which is probbaly because of what's alluded to in the Band of Three).

Whisky wrote...

They don't attack the templars, they only attack ME. They have been practicing blood magic heavily in the Circle to gain the ability to summon that many demons.

If you hear the ending, there are only "survivors" if you side with the mages.

Whisky wrote...

One just doesn't simply summon demons out of thin air AND control them (Remember how Avernus failed to control only 2 demons?).

You're conflating the few with the many.

Whisky wrote...

Then there's this guy called Orsino... ugh. After deciding that I've had enough of them mages, I sided with the templars.

And there's this Circle mage called Bethany.

[Whisky]

LobselVith8 wrote...
You mean abominations. That's not a surprise that we see abominations in
Kirkwall, where we see one possessed individual conjure abominations
from thin air the first time we meet Cullen (which is probbaly because
of what's alluded to in the Band of Three).

They have human faces, and wear Circle Mage Robes, perhaps they're from the Circle? Maybe?

LobselVith8 wrote...

If you hear the ending, there are only "survivors" if you side with the mages.

Um, I don't know what you mean by saying "survivors". Looks like I missed something, who are they? (Not sarcastic, in case you get me wrong)

LobselVith8 wrote...

You're conflating the few with the many.

But, there really are dangerous blood mages in the Circle. You would really set them loose?

LobselVith8 wrote...
And there's this Circle mage called Bethany.

I see, except she died in the Deep Roads. If I left her home to join the Circle, then yes, I would side with the mages, for my sister's sake. But otherwise I really don't want to do that, because Hawke would risk setting many demon summoners free.

Modifié par Whisky, 24 avril 2011 - 05:33 .

[astrallite]

Whisky wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Tell that to the men, women, and children of the Circle who are murdered.

At the end, it's supporting the massacre of people who are innocent of the act that an apostate commits.

They are not that innocent. On my first playthrough I sided with the mages because I thought it's the right thing to do, but not. Even if I sided with them mages, they still turned on me. Blood mages FROM THE CIRCLE summons hundreds waves of demons to attack ME, who sided with them. They don't attack the templars, they only attack ME. They have been practicing blood magic heavily in the Circle to gain the ability to summon that many demons. One just doesn't simply summon demons out of thin air AND control them (Remember how Avernus failed to control only 2 demons?). Then there's this guy called Orsino... ugh. After deciding that I've had enough of them mages, I sided with the templars.

It would be too realistic according to Bioware's logic, to have templars or guards react to battles or blood magic on the streets.

The mages and templars were never at war to begin with in this game; they are simply at war with YOU.

...as well as mystical ninjas, mabari, dog lords, qunari, followers of she, pirates...

Oh hell you are pretty much fighting the entire city like it's Black Hawk Down.

Modifié par astrallite, 24 avril 2011 - 05:42 .

[LobselVith8]

Whisky wrote...

They have human faces, and wear Circle Mage Robes, perhaps they're from the Circle? Maybe?

You mean like Uldred, who looked human and wore Circle robes? Regardless, you seem to be suggesting that indiscriminately killing countless mages in the only Circle of Magi in the Free Marches is the answer, and I can't agree with that. The Right of Annulment is called because of what Anders did, and he's an apostate. Everyone in the Circle of Kirkwall shouldn't be blamed for his actions. You seem to insinuate that the few who are into criminal activity should condemn them all, but that's like suggesting that all dwarves should be wiped out because some of them are members of the carta.

Whisky wrote...

Um, I don't know what you mean by saying "survivors". Looks like I missed something, who are they? (Not sarcastic, in case you get me wrong)

I meant if Hawke isn't supporting a madwoman's decree to mages of all ages because of an act the apostate Anders committed, then he helps people survive. Varric's dialogue addresses that there are many survivors if Hawke sides with the mages against "a brutal injustice."

Whisky wrote...

But, there really are dangerous blood mages in the Circle. You would really set them loose?

You would really commit an act of genocide against the entire Circle of Kirkwall because of what an apostate did?

Whisky wrote...

I see, except she died in the Deep Roads. If I left her home to join the Circle, then yes, I would side with the mages, for my sister's sake. But otherwise I really don't want to do that, because Hawke would risk setting many demon summoners free.

I don't see how everyone, from the eldest enchanter to the youngest apprentice, should be condemned to death, since they aren't responsible for Anders' actions.

[ShepPunch]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Elton John is dead wrote...

And quite honestly, you don't have two sympathetic mages. As you know as soon as you meet them - they're both possessed by demons and are pretty much disconnected from Hawke and the rest of the party more than any other companions - only caring about their own goals.

Merrill isn't possessed by a demon. Can you please stop saying that in every thread? It isn't accurate, but you keep repeating it ad nauseum. And I found Merrill to be very sympathetic, considering she's focusing on trying to save her people.

Merrill isn't possessed by a demon, true, she's just clinically insane.



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[ThomasBlaine]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Merrill isn't possessed by a demon. Can you please stop saying that in every thread? It isn't accurate, but you keep repeating it ad nauseum. And I found Merrill to be very sympathetic, considering she's focusing on trying to save her people.

... and cute!! Why is everyone trying to overlook that, as if it's not a valid factor??

Modifié par ThomasBlaine, 24 avril 2011 - 09:45 .

[LobselVith8]

ShepPunch wrote...

Merrill isn't possessed by a demon, true, she's just clinically insane.

I felt that way about everyone around Hawke when he was an apostate, and nobody seemed to notice that Hawke could use magic. Not the people, not guards, not even the templars. Then I wondered if Hawke was a madman who only thought he was a mage, and everyone in his life was a figment of his imagination.

[WeeRLegion]

A positive reason that I didn't yet see mentioned for picking templars would be to avoid the war with the chantry that Leliana threatened with. For what arguably could be called greater good.

[Whisky]

LobselVith8 wrote...
You mean like Uldred, who looked human and wore Circle robes? Regardless, you seem to be suggesting that indiscriminately killing countless mages in the only Circle of Magi in the Free Marches is the answer, and I can't agree with that. The Right of Annulment is called because of what Anders did, and he's an apostate. Everyone in the Circle of Kirkwall shouldn't be blamed for his actions. You seem to insinuate that the few who are into criminal activity should condemn them all, but that's like suggesting that all dwarves should be wiped out because some of them are members of the carta.

The fact that they became abomination proves my point: there are blood mages among the Circle mages like Meredith feared.

LobselVith8 wrote...
I meant if Hawke isn't supporting a madwoman's decree to mages of all ages because of an act the apostate Anders committed, then he helps people survive. Varric's dialogue addresses that there are many survivors if Hawke sides with the mages against "a brutal injustice."

I'm not sure about this. But I can't see any reasons why siding with templars result in the death of the entire population of Kirkwall. Only blood mages murder people, the templars don't. Or you mean Anders healed them, the survivors?

LobselVith8 wrote...
I don't see how everyone, from the eldest enchanter to the youngest apprentice, should be condemned to death, since they aren't responsible for Anders' actions.

I know they're not responsible, I meant executing them (for a crime they didnt commit) is not as bad as you think. Because many of them are blood mages already.
But do you know that there are also many good people among the templars? Siding with the mages means killing them all just because of Meredith. It's as wrong as siding with the templars.
Either way, you kill a great number of innocents. So we have 2 options:
- Release a bunch of super humans who have the power to lay anything to waste (along with a number of blood mages), destroying the only law system which can restrain them.
- Killing them all (along with many innocents and blood mages), and still have a chance to build another Circle, and the police system remains to protect the citizens.
Which one would you choose dude?

Modifié par Whisky, 24 avril 2011 - 04:12 .

[ThomasBlaine]

Whisky wrote...

I know they're not responsible, I meant executing them (for a crime they didnt commit) is not as bad as you think. Because many of them are blood mages already.
But do you know that there are also many good people among the templars? Siding with the mages means killing them all just because of Meredith. It's as wrong as siding with the templars.
Either way, you kill a great number of innocents. So we have 2 options:
- Release a bunch of super humans who have the power to lay anything to waste (along with a number of blood mages), destroying the only law system which can restrain them.
- Killing them all (along with many innocents and blood mages), and still have a chance to build another Circle, and the police system remains to protect the citizens.
Which one would you choose dude?

That's supposed to be the entire Templar philosophy in a nutshell.

Thing is, any blood mages you encounter throughout the game are apostates(You know the exception, but Hawke has no reason to suspect otherwise before it's too late). The circle mages are generally innocent.
..As in, they've been keeping themselves locked in a tower exactly as they've been told, and have made no trouble yet.

Defending someone of very dubious guilt against a somewhat justified aggressor is morally better than standing by, let alone participate in the alternative, whatever the circumstances.

Modifié par ThomasBlaine, 24 avril 2011 - 09:27 .

[LobselVith8]

Whisky wrote...

The fact that they became abomination proves my point: there are blood mages among the Circle mages like Meredith feared.

Actually, we don't know how many blood mages there are among the actual men, women, and children of the Circle of Kirkwall. Hawke never really has an opportunity to go inside the Gallows to meet them. Most of the mages we encounter are outside of the Gallows. I don't think we can fairly say whether any of them are good or bad because, as the protagonist, we're in the dark about what the denizens of the Circle are like. We meet very few of them, and the most exposure we have to the Circle mages is First Enchanter Orsino and Bethany, who couldn't be more dissimilar.

As for the Right of Annulment, Meredith called for the Right because of what Anders did. The Knight-Commander makes this explicitly clear when she demands the Champion to side with her when she states "even you must admit that this injustice cannot be tolerated." She further states that she can't sway her hand after Anders provides his confession because "the people will demand blood."

Whisky wrote...

I'm not sure about this. But I can't see any reasons why siding with templars result in the death of the entire population of Kirkwall. Only blood mages murder people, the templars don't. Or you mean Anders healed them, the survivors?

I'm addressing the templars kill all the mages and apprentices of the Circle of Magi, per David Gaider's explanation of the Right of Annulment:

David Gaider wrote...

The issue is this:

By the time the Right of Annulment is invoked, the tower in question has moved beyond the possibility of mages being brought under control enough that Tranquility would even be possible. It's possible some mages might survive the initial assault, but the order cannot be "take any prisoners you can" simply because by that point a mage might have been corrupted and become a blood mage... something which cannot be detected under normal circumstances. Thus capturing them becomes a means for them to escape the quarantine.

So therefore the order is "kill everyone". At the end of the day, if any mages are still alive for whatever reason... then, yes, I imagine they could theroretically be made Tranquil as opposed to executed outright.

As WoG states, the templars kill the mages and apprentices, or possibly make them tranquil in the theoretical situation that the mages aren't killed.

Whisky wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I don't see how everyone, from the eldest enchanter to the youngest apprentice, should be condemned to death, since they aren't responsible for Anders' actions.

I know they're not responsible, I meant executing them (for a crime they didnt commit) is not as bad as you think. Because many of them are blood mages already.

The problem with this statement is that we have no proof "many" of them are blood mages. We encounter mage antagonists, but we have no idea whether the Circle is full of blood mages or not. You seem to be arguing in favor of using game mechanics as lore, and given how Wynne can be made a blood mage through these mechanics, I don't see them as a factual estimation. We're never provided with any evidence to determine whether the mages of the Circle are good or bad, we're pretty much in the dark about this.

All we know is that the enchanters, mages, and apprentices are innocent of the crime Anders committed.

Whisky wrote...

But do you know that there are also many good people among the templars? Siding with the mages means killing them all just because of Meredith. It's as wrong as siding with the templars.  

Siding against a group who are going to be killing men, women, and children for something they didn't do is something I don't have a problem with. I'm not arguing that the templars are evil or anything like that, but when these soldiers make a decision to kill the mages, I don't have a problem protecting the people they plan on otherwise killing, especially when you consider that this is the only Circle of Magi in t the Free Marches, and the Gallows likely has a large population of people considering how the Starkhaven mages were directed to the only Circle of Magi in the region.

Whisky wrote...

Either way, you kill a great number of innocents. So we have 2 options:
- Release a bunch of super humans who have the power to lay anything to waste (along with a number of blood mages), destroying the only law system which can restrain them.

You mean helping the templars murder everyone from the eldest enchanter to the youngest apprentice for a crime that Anders committed.

Whisky wrote...

- Killing them all (along with many innocents and blood mages), and still have a chance to build another Circle, and the police system remains to protect the citizens.
Which one would you choose dude?  

You mean an act that many have considered genocide because it's the killing of every Circle mage in Kirkwall, and this act was ordered because of the actions of an apostate. I see no problem with protecting people who are innocent of the act Anders committed, but you're welcome to disagree with me. I'd protect the men, women, and children with magical ability against those who would murder them otherwise.

[OdanUrr]

In the end, it comes down to the simple fact that the idea of a Circle of Magi is flawed, because it's simply a means to keep the mages reined in and under the control of the Templars. It implies the idea that mages are a plague, a disease that must be kept from spreading. Those who try to leave the Circle, or those who already live as apostates, must unequivocally (under the Templar mind frame) be evil. It is oppression disguised under the pretext that it's "for the greater good," a line that can be used to justify any number of atrocities. It is an unstable situation that was bound to lead to a major confrontation sooner or later, and the events in DA2 serve to precipitate this. In a way, it could be said that DA2 acts as a shatterpoint, with the difference that said confrontation will happen, no matter what.

[Salaciouschicken]

Actually, why wouldn't you side with the templars?
Every mage essentially becomes an abomination. And while Meredith is crazy, it's pretty much just her. Many of the templars actually disagree with her while the mages are all pathetic. The story was so poorly done and that pretty much pushed it over the edge. Bioware should be embarrased for such an obvious cop out.

[ozonemania]

A moderator should really move this thread out of this section. There's more spoilers in this thread than I can count.

On to my point... I think Bioware should have made it more omnipresent that there might be something about Kirkwall itself that explains the high level of aberrant mages. If there was a questline that helped the protagonist discover this aspect, like unearthing another mystery, that would be really cool. Kind of like a 'Da Vinci Code' subplot.

Otherwise it's too easy to conclude that all mages are crazy demon infested abominations, for no reason other than that they are oppressed. Which is not as a compelling story, imo.

There are alot of stated opinions in this thread and others that only see the mage/templar conflict at a superficial level. There is more depth there that I think was intended but not well-executed.