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Normal Mage Next Time Please


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#1
Eternal Phoenix

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Edit: I've changed the title. People seem to believe I like Wayne. I hate wayne. When I meant circle mage - I mean a mage who isn't possessed by a demon or spirit or in contact with a demon. Just an ordinary mage.

Anders is possessed by a spirit turned demon.
Merril loves demons, consults with them and approves of Hawke speaking with them. (Name one demon who ever did anything good.)
Both care only about their goals more than anything else and will sacrifice anyone and anything to achieve them. Merril ends up killing her clan even though you can tell her countless times that her stupid demon isn't the way and Anders blows up the Chantry for no reason - he could have just blown up The Gallows (or tried too) but NOOOO, he has to blow up the place where Ser-Pounce-Alot was living after I found him and gave him to a nice priest there. He can also kill a girl before if you don't stop him.

Point being. Give us some normal mages next time. If destroys the role playing experience if you're shouting how you hate mages and how they should be killed but never send Templars to capture Anders or Merril.

Modifié par Elton John is dead, 28 avril 2011 - 10:25 .


#2
Rifneno

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1.  If you think there was no reason, you weren't pay attention.  Seriously, how many times do we have to say that the CHANTRY CONTROLS THE TEMPLARS?
2.  Blowing up the Gallows would definitely free the mages.  It would free them from living.  In case you didn't notice, they live in the same place as the templars.
3.  Merrill didn't "kill her own clan."  The morons attack the legendary warrior that put down a Qunari invasion.  This is what we call Darwinism.  Killing them is a service to the gene pool.  And that only happens if you pick the "wrong" dialogue choice.
4.  You think Hawke didn't do anything unethical in the year of servitude to either a smuggler or a mercenary?
5.  It also destroys your RP experience if you realize early on that Elthina is as much a problem as anyone but have no choice to murderknife her.
6.  The only Circle mage we got in Origins was an abomination that would never, EVER shut up about morality or duty.  Just saved 500 orphans?  Why not 600?  Go report for your minutely lecture with Flemeth Beta.

#3
rma2110

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Keep in mind that there is something off about Kirkwall. Read the Enigma of Kirkwall and you'll see that there could be a reason the mages there are not normal.

#4
The Angry One

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By "Merril killing her own clan" you mean "Merril's clan are a bunch of psychopaths who attack to the last civilian at the slightest provocation".

#5
Guest_Alistairlover94_*

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The Angry One wrote...

By "Merril killing her own clan" you mean "Merril's clan are a bunch of psychopaths who attack to the last civilian at the slightest provocation".


I wonder what my Dalish Warden would do if I imported a save where I killed the clan...

#6
TJPags

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Merrill isn't possessed . . .just obsessed.

#7
AlexXIV

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TJPags wrote...

Merrill isn't possessed . . .just obsessed.

Yep. Which is almost as bad but different.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 23 avril 2011 - 02:53 .


#8
Wulfram

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I think one of the points of DA2 was to change the setting so that it makes sense for a circle mage to be wandering about with our hero, rather than locked up somewhere.

#9
TJPags

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Wulfram wrote...

I think one of the points of DA2 was to change the setting so that it makes sense for a circle mage to be wandering about with our hero, rather than locked up somewhere.


I don't know about that.

In DAO, we had a Circle mage - Wynne - running around with the Warden.

In WH, we had a Circle mage - Finn (?) - running around with the Warden. 

Both asked for, and received, permission.

After DA2, we don't seem to have and Circles.  So how can there be Circle mages?

#10
Eternal Phoenix

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Rifneno wrote...

1.  If you think there was no reason, you weren't pay attention.  Seriously, how many times do we have to say that the CHANTRY CONTROLS THE TEMPLARS?
2.  Blowing up the Gallows would definitely free the mages.  It would free them from living.  In case you didn't notice, they live in the same place as the templars.
3.  Merrill didn't "kill her own clan."  The morons attack the legendary warrior that put down a Qunari invasion.  This is what we call Darwinism.  Killing them is a service to the gene pool.  And that only happens if you pick the "wrong" dialogue choice.
4.  You think Hawke didn't do anything unethical in the year of servitude to either a smuggler or a mercenary?
5.  It also destroys your RP experience if you realize early on that Elthina is as much a problem as anyone but have no choice to murderknife her.
6.  The only Circle mage we got in Origins was an abomination that would never, EVER shut up about morality or duty.  Just saved 500 orphans?  Why not 600?  Go report for your minutely lecture with Flemeth Beta.


Calm down bro.

1. The Chantry may control the Templars with lyrium but Meredith was the one giving orders. Remember?
2. Blowing up the Templar quater wouldn't do much harm, maybe a few mages would die but Anders way aware that starting a war with the Templars would also cause mages to die.
3. Merril was responsible for her clans death however you look at it. Her keeper's love for her led to her death and to the death of her clan. If she hadn't used blood magic, none of those events would ever have happened. Like Fenris says: Kwsihsdio ihgeujdujjuhns siybm?
4. Smuggling is not that bad. Killing is worse and when you take the mercenary job, you know what it involves but it's still not as bad as being a blood mage.
5. Murder knife. Yes because she didn't do anything wrong. She just stood there but this was probably because she wanted no conflict to be caused on either sides and was planning on how to resolve the conflict peacefully. Anders? He stood there for years too and maybe Elthina would've acted eventually but Anders murdered her and everyone other innocent person in the chantry because he wanted to be cool and blow stuff up. He could have murder knifed her himself but he decided to destroy every person in The Chantry and this wasn't just for the mages but for his own hatred of The Chantry. If he was trying to kill the person in charge, he would have walked in, stabbed her and left. He's not a good person.
6. Call her what you want. The spirit healer spec says that mages with good spirits in them aren't killed, they are just watched more closely. She was still a circle mage who supported the circle like Bethany. Anders and Merril had demons in them (or at least one spoke with them and even approved of them and the other was a hypocrite.)

Modifié par Elton John is dead, 23 avril 2011 - 04:58 .


#11
IanPolaris

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TJPags wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

I think one of the points of DA2 was to change the setting so that it makes sense for a circle mage to be wandering about with our hero, rather than locked up somewhere.


I don't know about that.

In DAO, we had a Circle mage - Wynne - running around with the Warden.

In WH, we had a Circle mage - Finn (?) - running around with the Warden. 

Both asked for, and received, permission.

After DA2, we don't seem to have and Circles.  So how can there be Circle mages?


I can think of one way it might have been done in DA2 (you're right post DA2).  Given that Hawke and Co came to Kirkwall fleeing the blight, we might have had an NPC mage companion that was a member of Fereldan's circle fleeing the blight...perhaps even served as Ostagar.  Just saying.

-Polaris

#12
Deified Data

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The Angry One wrote...

By "Merril killing her own clan" you mean "Merril's clan are a bunch of psychopaths who attack to the last civilian at the slightest provocation".

That "slight provacation" being the slaying of their beloved Keeper.

Granted, circumstances were complicated - Hawke and co. did what they had to do, and the Keeper sealed her fate by contacting the demon before Merrill, BUT, when a notorious blood mage pariah accompanied by armed companions leaves the cave with the Keeper dead on the floor, assumptians tend to be made. Indeed, they'd be foolish not to pin the crime on Merrill. Best case scenario: they avenge the death of their Keeper. Worst case scenario: they kill a blood mage who was indirectly responsible, anyway.

It's like Gascard DuPuis all over again - sure, he's revealed to be innocent in retrospect, but you have no reason to believe so when you meet him. He's a blood mage who kidnaps women, after all. Killing him, guilty or innocent, is the responsible thig to do.

It's a shame there wasn't an optio to hand Merrill over to her clan. She deserved a bit of justice, if not necessarily a death sentence.

#13
IanPolaris

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Elton John is dead wrote...

Calm down bro.

1. The Chantry may control the Templars with lyrium but Meredith was the one giving orders. Remember?


Grand Cleric Elthina had the right to veto anything Meredith did, and even had the right to replace her.  Everything the Templars did in Kirkwall was ultimately done via Elthina's authority as Grand Cleric of the Chantry.  The only reason Meredith gets away with flouting Chantry law is because Elthina lets her (same with Mother Petrice).

2. Blowing up the Templar quater wouldn't do much harm, maybe a few mages would die but Anders way aware that starting a war with the Templars would also cause mages to die.


Anders wants to start a war.  He explicitly states this, but he wants to pick the proper target and as a proper target for applied terrorism (and that's what it was), the Chantry was the perfect choice.  Anders is willing to accept that some mages must die for the rest to be free starting with himself.

3. Merril was responsible for her clans death however you look at it. Her keeper's love for her led to her death and to the death of her clan. If she hadn't used blood magic, none of those events would ever have happened. Like Fenris says: Kwsihsdio sihusjuhns siha?


False, false, false.  The one person responsible for Merrill's death is Keeper Merethari.  Period.  You can not be held accountable for the CHOICES of others.  Merrill was willing and prepared to pay the price for her bloodmagic and the knowledge herself and even made the arrangements.  Merrill went to great lengths to try to insulated her friends, lover, and clan from the consequences.  Merrill didn't hold a gun to Merathari's head and force her to let Audicity in.  Mereathari did that all on her own...and the fear she spread about Merrill was completely unjustified as well...and created the ugly scene in the end.  Even then it wasn't Merrill that choose to attack the Champion of Kirkwall (if they did).

I DENY Negative Responsibility.

4. Smuggling is not that bad. Killing is worse and when you take the mercenary job, you know what it involves but it's still not as bad as being a blood mage.


Bloodmagic isn't evil.  Really it's not.  Its very dangerous magic using another source of power and that is IT.  The Chantry for a variety of reasons wants you to think bloodmagic is evil but it's not.  It's illegal and dangerous which does put it on the same level as lyrium smuggling.

5. Murder knife. Yes because she didn't do anything wrong. She just stood there but this was probably because she wanted no conflict to be caused on either sides. Anders? He stood there for years too and maybe Elthina would've acted eventually but Anders murdered her.


Elthina was the Divine's representative in Kirkwall and the ultimate religious authority.  When it comes to chantry matters including all Templar matters, Her Word Is Law.  Thus she is directly responsible by her own inaction for allowing this to occure.  She isn't responsible for Meredith being a fruit loop. She IS responsible for not doing anything about it....for almost a decade.

6. Call her what you want. The spirit healer spec says that mages with good spirits in them aren't killed, they are just watched more closely. She was still a circle mage who supported the circle like Bethany.


Wynne wasn't just a spirit healer.  Your typical spirit healer is in close communication with helpful non-demonic (presumably) spirits that assist certain magics, but those spirits do [edit] NOT [/edit] take up residence!  Anders was a Spirit healer BEFORE he merged with Justice.

Wynne was/is different.  Wynne is possessed.  That makes her an abomination.

-Polaris

Modifié par IanPolaris, 23 avril 2011 - 05:41 .


#14
OmegaXI

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Well seeing how there is a war between the Circles and the Templars, you will most likey have a circle mage since they will be a big part of the story.

#15
OmegaXI

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and wait you did have a circle mage in DA2 depending on your class and who you took to the deep roads.

#16
IanPolaris

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OmegaXI wrote...

and wait you did have a circle mage in DA2 depending on your class and who you took to the deep roads.


Only for the final two boss fights which IMHO doesn't really count.

-Polaris

#17
Maria Caliban

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Elton John is dead wrote...


Merril is possessed by a demon.

What is this heading to my face? Is is my palm? Yes, it is.

#18
LobselVith8

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Elton John is dead wrote...

Merril is possessed by a demon.


Merrill isn't possessed by a demon. She's an elven mage who doesn't hold to the Andrastian view of spirits and demons because she's Dalish and has different religious beliefs. She doesn't see the denizens of the Fade as the "Maker's First Children" like the Andrastian Anders does, she sees them all as dangerous spirits.

Elton John is dead wrote...

Both care only about their goals more than anything else and will sacrifice anyone and anything to achieve them. Merril ends up killing her clan even though you can tell her countless times that her stupid demon isn't the way


Nothing here is remotely accurate. Merrill is working to build an Eluvian because she wants to help her people restore their lost knowledge of Arlathan, and she's willing to die to see this accomplished.

Elton John is dead wrote...

Point being. Give us some normal mages next time. 


By normal mages, you mean Chantry apologists?

#19
TJPags

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IanPolaris wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

I think one of the points of DA2 was to change the setting so that it makes sense for a circle mage to be wandering about with our hero, rather than locked up somewhere.


I don't know about that.

In DAO, we had a Circle mage - Wynne - running around with the Warden.

In WH, we had a Circle mage - Finn (?) - running around with the Warden. 

Both asked for, and received, permission.

After DA2, we don't seem to have and Circles.  So how can there be Circle mages?


I can think of one way it might have been done in DA2 (you're right post DA2).  Given that Hawke and Co came to Kirkwall fleeing the blight, we might have had an NPC mage companion that was a member of Fereldan's circle fleeing the blight...perhaps even served as Ostagar.  Just saying.

-Polaris


Good idea, and one that could have been done.

But then, when you do get to Kirkwall, there would be the whole "put them back in the Circle or hide them" issue, more blatantly than with Bethany.  Still could have worked, though.

#20
IanPolaris

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TJPags wrote...

Good idea, and one that could have been done.

But then, when you do get to Kirkwall, there would be the whole "put them back in the Circle or hide them" issue, more blatantly than with Bethany.  Still could have worked, though.


You're right, but I think this could have been a very interesting and informative plot point (including the possibility of seeing the Gallows from the inside).  *whiff* Was that the sound of a missed opportunity I heard?

-Polaris

#21
KnightofPhoenix

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IanPolaris wrote...
*whiff* Was that the sound of a missed opportunity I heard?

-Polaris


One out of so many.

#22
TobiTobsen

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
*whiff* Was that the sound of a missed opportunity I heard?

-Polaris


One out of so many.


Either that, or Sniper!David Gaider tried to assassinate him. Image IPB

#23
KnightofPhoenix

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TobiTobsen wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
*whiff* Was that the sound of a missed opportunity I heard?

-Polaris


One out of so many.


Either that, or Sniper!David Gaider tried to assassinate him. Image IPB


Does David Gaider ever miss?

#24
LobselVith8

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Deified Data wrote...
That "slight provacation" being the slaying of their beloved Keeper.


You mean an abomination. Marethari put her entire clan in danger by keeping them in Sundermount when they should have left years ago and placing a demon inside of her.

Deified Data wrote...

Granted, circumstances were complicated - Hawke and co. did what they had to do, and the Keeper sealed her fate by contacting the demon before Merrill, BUT, when a notorious blood mage pariah accompanied by armed companions leaves the cave with the Keeper dead on the floor, assumptians tend to be made. Indeed, they'd be foolish not to pin the crime on Merrill. Best case scenario: they avenge the death of their Keeper. Worst case scenario: they kill a blood mage who was indirectly responsible, anyway.


The Dalish clan members are told the truth about their Keeper becoming an abomination and they try to murder Merrill in cold blood, that's what happens.

Deified Data wrote...

It's like Gascard DuPuis all over again - sure, he's revealed to be innocent in retrospect, but you have no reason to believe so when you meet him. He's a blood mage who kidnaps women, after all. Killing him, guilty or innocent, is the responsible thig to do.


Merrill never hides that she's a blood mage, she's open about it. She's also up front about her desire to save her people and focused on her task, who makes her no different than the Warden who saves the people of Ferelden from the Blight, to the point of going to the Frostback Mountains to find a mythical Urn reputed to heal any illness.

Deified Data wrote...

It's a shame there wasn't an optio to hand Merrill over to her clan. She deserved a bit of justice, if not necessarily a death sentence.


Merrill deserved a death sentence because her clan was ignorant and bigoted? I disagree.

#25
Eternal Phoenix

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Maria Caliban wrote...

Elton John is dead wrote...


Merril is possessed by a demon.

What is this heading to my face? Is is my palm? Yes, it is.


Blood mages and possessed mages are the same really. Someone still died for Merril's actions so that makes her just as bad as a possessed mage. Your point being?

IanPolaris wrote...

Elton John is dead wrote...

Calm down bro.

1. The Chantry may control the Templars with lyrium but Meredith was the one giving orders. Remember?


Grand Cleric Elthina had the right to veto anything Meredith did, and even had the right to replace her.  Everything the Templars did in Kirkwall was ultimately done via Elthina's authority as Grand Cleric of the Chantry.  The only reason Meredith gets away with flouting Chantry law is because Elthina lets her (same with Mother Petrice).

2. Blowing up the Templar quater wouldn't do much harm, maybe a few mages would die but Anders way aware that starting a war with the Templars would also cause mages to die.


Anders wants to start a war.  He explicitly states this, but he wants to pick the proper target and as a proper target for applied terrorism (and that's what it was), the Chantry was the perfect choice.  Anders is willing to accept that some mages must die for the rest to be free starting with himself.

3. Merril was responsible for her clans death however you look at it. Her keeper's love for her led to her death and to the death of her clan. If she hadn't used blood magic, none of those events would ever have happened. Like Fenris says: Kwsihsdio sihusjuhns siha?


False, false, false.  The one person responsible for Merrill's death is Keeper Merethari.  Period.  You can not be held accountable for the CHOICES of others.  Merrill was willing and prepared to pay the price for her bloodmagic and the knowledge herself and even made the arrangements.  Merrill went to great lengths to try to insulated her friends, lover, and clan from the consequences.  Merrill didn't hold a gun to Merathari's head and force her to let Audicity in.  Mereathari did that all on her own...and the fear she spread about Merrill was completely unjustified as well...and created the ugly scene in the end.  Even then it wasn't Merrill that choose to attack the Champion of Kirkwall (if they did).

I DENY Negative Responsibility.

4. Smuggling is not that bad. Killing is worse and when you take the mercenary job, you know what it involves but it's still not as bad as being a blood mage.


Bloodmagic isn't evil.  Really it's not.  Its very dangerous magic using another source of power and that is IT.  The Chantry for a variety of reasons wants you to think bloodmagic is evil but it's not.  It's illegal and dangerous which does put it on the same level as lyrium smuggling.

5. Murder knife. Yes because she didn't do anything wrong. She just stood there but this was probably because she wanted no conflict to be caused on either sides. Anders? He stood there for years too and maybe Elthina would've acted eventually but Anders murdered her.


Elthina was the Divine's representative in Kirkwall and the ultimate religious authority.  When it comes to chantry matters including all Templar matters, Her Word Is Law.  Thus she is directly responsible by her own inaction for allowing this to occure.  She isn't responsible for Meredith being a fruit loop. She IS responsible for not doing anything about it....for almost a decade.

6. Call her what you want. The spirit healer spec says that mages with good spirits in them aren't killed, they are just watched more closely. She was still a circle mage who supported the circle like Bethany.


Wynne wasn't just a spirit healer.  Your typical spirit healer is in close communication with helpful non-demonic (presumably) spirits that assist certain magics, but those spirits do [edit] NOT [/edit] take up residence!  Anders was a Spirit healer BEFORE he merged with Justice.

Wynne was/is different.  Wynne is possessed.  That makes her an abomination.

-Polaris


1. Elbernita wouldn't be able to stop anyone if the mages and Templars started an open war with each other.

2. Then if Anders knew he would be killing mages. He could have blown the Gallows up - the part where The Templars hanged about. If Anders had killed Elbernita. Chopped off her head and brought it to Orinoco and Meredith, Meredith still would have called for the Rite of annulementia since she was close to doing it anyway, even Orinoco states this. Who knows how many people were in The Chantry? Children could have been there on Sunday praying and !BOOM! - they all die because Anders thought a boom would be good.

3. A clan is a family and Keeper Mathrian was trying to keep Merril safe (and the clan below where the demon was) if that demon was released, it could have killed the clan. Point being - blood magic always causes death. Someone has to die if it is to be used. Whether that be the user or someone else. In the end, the demon broke free anyone, thankfully Hawke was there to beat it with his beard.

4. Demons are evil in the Dragon Age world too. The feed on greed, death and sloth and every other bad and negative element. Blood magic comes from them and requires someone to die so yep, it's evil.

5. Answer 1 addressed this.

6. Hmmm but Wayne didn't ask for the spirit and that's what it is. It's not a demon since it wants to help unlike Vengeance who wants to kill. Regardless, did I ever support her? I asked for a Circle Mage who is normal - no demons - no spirits - just a normal magic user.

Modifié par Elton John is dead, 23 avril 2011 - 08:33 .