95 réponses à ce sujet

[the_one_54321]

MrGOH wrote...
I haven't established this at all. It's a remarkable argument, as if artistic value is inherent rather than subjectiely (and in many cases collectively) determined based on the work rather than its source. But I suppose your subjectively determined definition of what does and does not constitue artistic integrity can be as zany as you want.

i think it's more the notion that once the artist is getting paid for the work, some of the artistic integrity automatically must come into question. it seems like a reasonable enough notion to me.

[fairandbalancedfan]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I wouldn't buy it.

I wouldn't either, but I am tempted to rent this out. And as said before, the developers must be delighted they are hogging the spotlight.

Modifié par fairandbalancedfan, 30 octobre 2009 - 11:05 .

[the_one_54321]

i think it might be worth a playthrough, myself. but i cant rent because i cant play shooters on consoles.

[MrGOH]

the_one_54321 wrote...

MrGOH wrote...
So art should only ever be a hobby?

this was half joking, but if approaching it seriously, art is something that is made for it's own sake. games certainly can be artistic, but once money enters the equation, and this goes for absolutely anything, some of the artistic value is gone.

Hmm. I disagree, but I also am quite certain that there's no real objective test for a work's artistic value. I understand where you're coming from, though, if you're saying that a significant component of artistic value is that the work is unencumbered by outside constraints and is rather a pure product of the artist.

[the_one_54321]

MrGOH wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

MrGOH wrote...
So art should only ever be a hobby?

this was half joking, but if approaching it seriously, art is something that is made for it's own sake. games certainly can be artistic, but once money enters the equation, and this goes for absolutely anything, some of the artistic value is gone.

Hmm. I disagree, but I also am quite certain that there's no real objective test for a work's artistic value. I understand where you're coming from, though, if you're saying that a significant component of artistic value is that the work is unencumbered by outside constraints and is rather a pure product of the artist.

that about sums it up, yes.

[stevej713]

If the game gives me a choice, then I'll play it. If I will be forced to shoot civilians in the game, I will not. That's my opinion.

[Mistress9Nine]

Sword For Hire wrote...

fallout 3 had unkillable children
fallout 1 & 2 did not

DAO has killable children. We actiually killed one. That little sucked picked the wrong Team to mess with. We did the "Kill it" option all the time.

[xODD7BALLx]

the_one_54321 wrote...

fairandbalancedfan wrote...
Exactly, the agent gets his comeuppance, so it'snot like he is getting out scott free. And this being a COD game, we know the baddies are going to get what's coming to them. I thought this happens in America, and that's why I thought Americans were getting worked up. If this is happening in Russia, aren't the Russians more justified in getting pissed off ?

the upset americans probably think it happens in america too.

I'm not mortified or drastically upset by it, yes I'm an American, yes I'm aware terrorism is a worldwide threat, is violence disturbing to me, not so much anymore, I could probably eat soup out of a rotting animals eye socket with most of the things I've witnessed personally so blood and gore does not bother me. If you read my other posts, you can get a better understanding of what I'm saying. I'm in no way saying AH that game needs to be burned taken off the shelves AHHH!!! I'm just saying there are some things to take into acct, especially IW knowing that the majority of the consumers that purchase this product will be under the M rating age restriction. And I'd accept this as a cutscene, however I think it's a bit much being that you are put into the shoes of a coalition/allied operative and putting it out there that, participating in such things is a way we or any other democracy does business.

[MrGOH]

Panderfringe wrote...

MrGOH wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

MrGOH wrote...
So anything designed to be sold cannot have artistic value? Even incidental artistic value?

of course not. artists are by nature not interested in making any money.

or at least that's how it should be...

So art should only ever be a hobby?

Okay, in the case of this MW2 controversy we would be mostly correct in assuming  Infinity War do not have any motive behind making the game except that they think there is a large demographic which will purchase it. Do mass-produced cars count as art too, now?

There is an artistic component in cars, although I think it's  less than in entertainment media. My subjective valuation of art is based on aesthetics and the communication of ideas; cars can certainly be aesthetically pleasing, but they don't communicate very interesting ideas. A game's or novel's or movie's narrative, however, can both be aesthetically pleasing and communicate interesting ideas.

[fairandbalancedfan]

stevej713 wrote...

If the game gives me a choice, then I'll play it. If I will be forced to shoot civilians in the game, I will not. That's my opinion.

It's not clear at this point. but it seems the 'agent' you play as

[SPOILER]


bites the bullet at the end.


[/SPOILER

[MrGOH]

fairandbalancedfan wrote...

stevej713 wrote...

If the game gives me a choice, then I'll play it. If I will be forced to shoot civilians in the game, I will not. That's my opinion.

It's not clear at this point. but it seems the 'agent' you play as

[SPOILER]


bites the bullet at the end.


[/SPOILER

SPOILER


I've watched a video of the level. It is quite clear the agent bites the bullet.


/SPOILER

[stevej713]

fairandbalancedfan wrote...

stevej713 wrote...

If the game gives me a choice, then I'll play it. If I will be forced to shoot civilians in the game, I will not. That's my opinion.

It's not clear at this point. but it seems the 'agent' you play as

[SPOILER]


bites the bullet at the end.


[/SPOILER

Hmm... maybe it'll be like the level in COD:4, where you play as that president dude.

[xODD7BALLx]

And yes I've had this pre-ordered since it was first available to do so, and yes because of this, even though as I said I dont have an OH MY GOD IM UPSET NOW issue with it, cutscene wouldve been tasteful(all things considered) but yes I canceled my pre-order put my cred to Mass Effect 2. I'm not going to play ignorance and act like I support it though.

[wrexingcrew]

MrGOH wrote...



I understand where you're coming from, though, if you're saying that a significant component of artistic value is that the work is unencumbered by outside constraints and is rather a pure product of the artist.

I imagine we could build substantial consensus along those lines. I would add that structural factors are not an ultimate determinant/barrier to artistic quality/merit, but seem to me to be strongly correlated. In other words, an artist or collective creating within commercially-imposed constraints of the kind you mentioned has additional and difficult obstacles to overcome.



And since you mentioned being close to one of our local landmarks: DC FTW

[xODD7BALLx]

stevej713 wrote...

fairandbalancedfan wrote...

stevej713 wrote...

If the game gives me a choice, then I'll play it. If I will be forced to shoot civilians in the game, I will not. That's my opinion.

It's not clear at this point. but it seems the 'agent' you play as

[SPOILER]


bites the bullet at the end.


[/SPOILER

Hmm... maybe it'll be like the level in COD:4, where you play as that president dude.

In COD4 the president of that middle eastern country doesnt spray an MG into crowds of unarmed men and women. All you can do in COD4 is look around you arent in control

dont know how much longer the leaked footage will be up but like I said you are in control in this mission and no it aint pretty.
www.gametrailers.com/user-movie/modern-warfare-2-leaked-footage/333509
WARNING M RATED GAMEPLAY GRAPHIC VIOLENCE

Modifié par Operative84, 30 octobre 2009 - 11:12 .

[fairandbalancedfan]

At the end of the day, I have to ask, is this going to hurt sales, or is it going to increase. I will be eagerly looking for the sales figures after this game comes out. At this point I want to know how accidental this leak was. If I was a conspiracy theorist, my money would be on Activision screwing the PC gamers, and now this because they want free advertising.

Modifié par fairandbalancedfan, 30 octobre 2009 - 11:17 .

[xODD7BALLx]

fairandbalancedfan wrote...

At the end of the day, I have to ask, is this going to hurt sales, or is it going to increase. I will be eagerly looking for the sales figures after this game comes out.

Well considering how many are on the IW forums saying how awesome it is, amongst other response such as: too bad there arent any kids to mow down, I'd kill them all just to put a stop to the women screaming in the background, I always wanted to do that, people in airports suck anyways I cant wait to kill as many as I can, etc. But also the fact that the footage has nearly been pulled off of every site, people with pre-orders who are casual wont even know about it until they play it. So dont think it'll hurt sales noticably, there are plenty that have voiced their disdain and how they will cancel their pre-order. So yeah and no I guess.

[Maria Caliban]

fairandbalancedfan wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

I wouldn't buy it.

I wouldn't either, but I am tempted to rent this out. And as said before, the developers must be delighted they are hogging the spotlight.

I think the controversy was created by marketing. First there was the controversy that you first mentioned, and when nothing happened with it a video was 'leaked' and a spokesperson immedately sent a letter in responce to it to about a dozen different vg news outlets.

[MrGOH]

wrexingcrew wrote...

MrGOH wrote...

I understand where you're coming from, though, if you're saying that a significant component of artistic value is that the work is unencumbered by outside constraints and is rather a pure product of the artist.

I imagine we could build substantial consensus along those lines. I would add that structural factors are not an ultimate determinant/barrier to artistic quality/merit, but seem to me to be strongly correlated. In other words, an artist or collective creating within commercially-imposed constraints of the kind you mentioned has additional and difficult obstacles to overcome.

And since you mentioned being close to one of our local landmarks: DC FTW

But does it make sense to start one's evaluation by asking whether or not the work was for-profit, as some of the folks here seem to? It seems to me that no matter what the subjective intent of the artist, the viewership's subjective valuations swallow it up. I totally agree that commercial and collective contraints in many cases limit what aesthetics amy be used and what ideas may be communicated; I would also argue that in many cases, such as film, those constraints may in the end produce a work subjectively evaluated by the public as better art than that the artist would create iunconstrained.

DC FTW indeed, although I am a small-town midwesterner at heart. That's partially why even my jaded self somethimes gets misty-eyed when transversing the Mall to go to work.

[fairandbalancedfan]

Operative84 wrote...

fairandbalancedfan wrote...

At the end of the day, I have to ask, is this going to hurt sales, or is it going to increase. I will be eagerly looking for the sales figures after this game comes out.

Well considering how many are on the IW forums saying how awesome it is, amongst other response such as: too bad there arent any kids to mow down, I'd kill them all just to put a stop to the women screaming in the background, I always wanted to do that, people in airports suck anyways I cant wait to kill as many as I can, etc. But also the fact that the footage has nearly been pulled off of every site, people with pre-orders who are casual wont even know about it until they play it. So dont think it'll hurt sales noticably, there are plenty that have voiced their disdain and how they will cancel their pre-order. So yeah and no I guess.

First of all I think, either those people were being immature and don't really mean it, or they need some psych therapy and fast. And imo, I think this will increase sales imo. We will wait and see. I won't be buying this game though.

[fairandbalancedfan]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I think the controversy was created by marketing. First there was the controversy that you first mentioned, and when nothing happened with it a video was 'leaked' and a spokesperson immedately sent a letter in responce to it to about a dozen different vg news outlets.

That's my feeling too. I think they are trying to get mass advertising free of cost. Why spent money on advertising when the press can do it for you.

Although the game will follow the same formula. i.e. kill some assorted ethnic dudes Russians, Arabs etc.

Modifié par fairandbalancedfan, 30 octobre 2009 - 11:27 .

[xODD7BALLx]

fairandbalancedfan wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

I think the controversy was created by marketing. First there was the controversy that you first mentioned, and when nothing happened with it a video was 'leaked' and a spokesperson immedately sent a letter in responce to it to about a dozen different vg news outlets.

That's my feeling too. I think they are trying to get mass advertising free of cost. Why spent money on advertising when the press can do it for you.

Well I hope it was worth it to them.......

[MrGOH]

fairandbalancedfan wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

I think the controversy was created by marketing. First there was the controversy that you first mentioned, and when nothing happened with it a video was 'leaked' and a spokesperson immedately sent a letter in responce to it to about a dozen different vg news outlets.

That's my feeling too. I think they are trying to get mass advertising free of cost. Why spent money on advertising when the press can do it for you.

The official line is that the video came from an illegaly obtained copy in France. It seemed like a foreign version, although the text and voices are hard to make out.  I'm not entirely convinced either way; any pre-written letter could have been prepared for once the game was released, or an official unveiling a short time before release because when the news inevitably reached the public, controversy would ensue.

[fairandbalancedfan]

Operative84 wrote...

Well I hope it was worth it to them.......

we will see, come November the 10th. I hope Infinity Ward is prepared for the possible bans in some countries, lawsuits and some people having seen evidence that finally video games are the work of the devil.

[xODD7BALLx]

fairandbalancedfan wrote...

Operative84 wrote...

Well I hope it was worth it to them.......

we will see, come November the 10th. I hope Infinity Ward is prepared for the possible bans in some countries, lawsuits and some people having seen evidence that finally video games are the work of the devil.

I wager some countries will request it be delayed and that portion be scrubbed from the retail version