255 réponses à ce sujet

[Summarum]

Hey, everyone.

The discussions about female characters' breasts in Dragon Age 2 being too large (and this being sexist towards women) prompted me to remember something I've been meaning to ask Bioware for a long time, and the social network forums seem to be the preferred way of doing that.  For this thread, let's acknowledge that the character models are idealized pretty gender-symmetrically and not rehash the old arguments.  There is however a strange and illuminating irony in a character, who flat out says that "Men are only good for one thing", being called sexist towards women because she's too attractive.

Bioware stories, because they feature choices for the player, have always implied a moral context which exhibits itself in how choices are divided between those that are 'good' and those that are 'evil'; the morality is usually pretty heavy-handed.  Murder slavers and free the slaves, good.  Murder children and free their parents of custodial concerns, evil.  Slavery and killing children are wrong, is the implicit "Bioware stance".

Now we can get back to the sexism.  It's a long-standing tradition in Bioware games, but also in other games and especially in movies, to have this cliché scene where either the player character (if female) or a party member or other significant character, is accosted by or simply the target of sexist, belittling remarks.  "You should stay in the kitchen, hee-haa".  Then typically either the PC chooses to fight them, or is forced to, or the party member in question simply upstages them in a cutscene, either way they get shown up and morality points rain down upon all and we are reminded that gender stereotypes are bigoted and evil. (e.g. Isabela, DA:O , DA2)

Except when they aren't.  Eventually you'll run into tradition two, the "good sexist," and fellow protagonist.  I don't even need to tell you the only thing that sets them apart, the good sexists and the evil ones, because you already know, instinctively.  "Women are only good for one thing": death sentence.  "Men are only good for one thing": welcome to the party, you unique and interesting character, you.  Here's your halo.

This has been a constant companion of the Bioware player since at least Neverwinter Nights, and just as long it has made me kind of uncomfortable.  The distinction is recurring and therefore clearly deliberate.  Since it's deliberate, there is a reason for it, and that reason is what I want to know.

[Maria Caliban]

You're saying that Isabela is sexist towards men and you want a chance to confront her about it?

[yaw]

Err...

For some reason that was really hard to understand, but I think I got the jist of it.

Are you saying it's unfair that people are crying about sexism towards woman, with all the attractive female characters and big boobs, while there is sexism towards men that noone takes notice off?

[The Angry One]

So. Either you didn't hear the rest of what Isabela said when she remarked "men are only good for one thing" or you genuinely think women are only good for six.

Modifié par The Angry One, 23 avril 2011 - 05:00 .

[Tantum Dic Verbo]

I think trying to get video games to synch up with the gender studies courses taught in colleges these days may be an exercise in futility.

[Ymladdych]

Maria Caliban wrote...
You're saying that Isabela is sexist towards men and you want a chance to confront her about it?

Yaw wrote...
Err...

For some reason that was really hard to understand, but I think I got the jist of it.

Are
you saying it's unfair that people are crying about sexism towards
woman, with all the attractive female characters and big boobs, while
there is sexism towards men that noone takes notice off?

OP is saying both of these things, but he's also asserting that Bioware makes traditional sexism a villainous trait while (for lack of a better term) "reverse" sexism is being put in a positive light.

It's a fair question, although I'd argue that Isabela's universal image as a "good person" is up for debate.  A lot of players love her, but a lot players find her morally repugnant, and not because of her sexual habits.  Secondly, OP is taking the line out of context.  She wasn't saying that men are useless outside of sex; she was saying that men are "one trick ponies" when it comes to sex.  There's a difference.

[Dokarqt]

Summarum wrote...

Hey, everyone.

The discussions about female characters' breasts in Dragon Age 2 being too large (and this being sexist towards women) prompted me to remember something I've been meaning to ask Bioware for a long time, and the social network forums seem to be the preferred way of doing that.  For this thread, let's acknowledge that the character models are idealized pretty gender-symmetrically and not rehash the old arguments.  There is however a strange and illuminating irony in a character, who flat out says that "Men are only good for one thing", being called sexist towards women because she's too attractive.

Bioware stories, because they feature choices for the player, have always implied a moral context which exhibits itself in how choices are divided between those that are 'good' and those that are 'evil'; the morality is usually pretty heavy-handed.  Murder slavers and free the slaves, good.  Murder children and free their parents of custodial concerns, evil.  Slavery and killing children are wrong, is the implicit "Bioware stance".

Now we can get back to the sexism.  It's a long-standing tradition in Bioware games, but also in other games and especially in movies, to have this cliché scene where either the player character (if female) or a party member or other significant character, is accosted by or simply the target of sexist, belittling remarks.  "You should stay in the kitchen, hee-haa".  Then typically either the PC chooses to fight them, or is forced to, or the party member in question simply upstages them in a cutscene, either way they get shown up and morality points rain down upon all and we are reminded that gender stereotypes are bigoted and evil. (e.g. Isabela, DA:O , DA2)

Except when they aren't.  Eventually you'll run into tradition two, the "good sexist," and fellow protagonist.  I don't even need to tell you the only thing that sets them apart, the good sexists and the evil ones, because you already know, instinctively.  "Women are only good for one thing": death sentence.  "Men are only good for one thing": welcome to the party, you unique and interesting character, you.  Here's your halo.

This has been a constant companion of the Bioware player since at least Neverwinter Nights, and just as long it has made me kind of uncomfortable.  The distinction is recurring and therefore clearly deliberate.  Since it's deliberate, there is a reason for it, and that reason is what I want to know.

This is actually quite typical and a reflection of the skewed (i.e. gynocentric) gender studies today.

You should check out Paul Nathanson and Katherine Youngs books on misandry in modern society (The four books together are called Beyond the Fall of Man) judging from your post you'll probably find them interesting.

[UltiPup]

So, wait, this is about one line that Isabela says once for the purpose of a lead in to that "women are good for six" joke?

I honestly don't remember Isabela bringing this reverse sexism to the game. She seems pretty neutral to both sexes. Really, Isabela seems like the person who loves everyone. Strong and independent, but isn't ashamed of her sexuality or assets. Never had a problem with her once I got to know her character.

Really, Bioware skips the whole sexism thing in favor of equality. No one cares if a woman or man has power. Anora sole ruler? That's cool with everyone. Its refreshing really.

[abaris]

By the same right, you could call DAO sexist too.

There were quite a few remarks of NPCs about women and the role they should play, which didn't include adventuring. To be honest, I liked that. That's a medieval kind fantasy world after all and political correctness may be all the rage these days, but it would ruin a role playing factor.

Btw, all my alarm bells ring when I hear Political Correctness. Its just scratching the surface, its just candy flavored words, covering the ugly surface while the wound unerneath is still festering. And it leads to such gems as editing "sperm whale" out of the ibook version of Moby Dick or the "N" word out of Tom Saywer, thereby totally destroying the historical reference and meaning of the books.

[Braindeer]

abaris wrote...

By the same right, you could call DAO sexist too.

There were quite a few remarks of NPCs about women and the role they should play, which didn't include adventuring. To be honest, I liked that. That's a medieval kind fantasy world after all and political correctness may be all the rage these days, but it would ruin a role playing factor.

Btw, all my alarm bells ring when I hear Political Correctness. Its just scratching the surface, its just candy flavored words, covering the ugly surface while the wound unerneath is still festering. And it leads to such gems as editing "sperm whale" out of the ibook version of Moby Dick or the "N" word out of Tom Saywer, thereby totally destroying the historical reference and meaning of the books.

I would totally disagree with this. I don't recall any remarks about "women's roles" in DA:O (although I'm open to having my memory refreshed!) - in fact, I was pleasantly surprised by how easily Bioware had integrated 21st Centrury gender politics into an RPG setting. Women are pretty well represented in the power structures of Thedas from what I recall. Women in the army, Anora in power, female chevaliers, etc. Ser Cauthrien, for example, or Mhairi in Awakenings. And the story of Aveline having to dress as a man in order to fight and being punished when discovered is (as I read it) retold in Thedas to illustrate the idiocy of an outdated view of women, rather than as a cautionary tale to women thinking of stepping outside their prescribed role.

I also disagree that "political correctness" would ruin an RPG. That assumes that only men will be playing RPGs, or women who are happy to pretend to be men in order to join in. Rather unfair, no? I want to play the same game, but as a woman. Bioware delivers.

[whykikyouwhy]

abaris wrote...

By the same right, you could call DAO sexist too.

There were quite a few remarks of NPCs about women and the role they should play, which didn't include adventuring. To be honest, I liked that. That's a medieval kind fantasy world after all and political correctness may be all the rage these days, but it would ruin a role playing factor.

If DAO/DAII were a historical medieval game, I might agree that inserting modern concepts of equality would put a certain taint on things. Or at least give a player enough jarring pauses to make the game more distracting than enjoyable. But the great thing about fantasy is that the world is whatever its creators want it to be. So women who adventure, rule, throw fireballs from their fingertips...all possible, all real for that world, and all celebrated. (Though real history does have its share of female rulers and adventurers/explorers. Maybe not the fireball-flinging though.) 
 

Btw, all my alarm bells ring when I hear Political Correctness. Its just scratching the surface, its just candy flavored words, covering the ugly surface while the wound unerneath is still festering. And it leads to such gems as editing "sperm whale" out of the ibook version of Moby Dick or the "N" word out of Tom Saywer, thereby totally destroying the historical reference and meaning of the books.

I do agree that political correctness can be a sort of easy band-aid to put on things. Trying to change centuries of patriarchy and sexism, of the concept of the male as the deciding party (or just a full human being of significance), has been a long, arduous uphill battle. And while there are strides in the struggle for equality, sexism is unfortunately socialized, sometimes in subtle ways (dressing girls in pink, boys in blue...very innocuous, and yet, already creating a foundation). I don't care for the recent attempts to nullify the darker bits of history. I think those things should be taught - so discuss Tom Sawyer but also what American society was like during its time period. But, education is suffering in many ways, and that is a whole different discussion in and of itself.

I think Bioware is hoping to present a world more equal, more embracing, than what we know. And maybe through this bit of fantasy, they are trying to show options/perspectives that people may not typically be introduced to. "Oh, so you wield two daggers, you kick a lot of *ss, and you're a girl...well, maybe you're not so bad." Small steps, sure, but significant.

[Any0day]

 I'm male; I'll state that off the bat just to illustrate my perspective. I've always viewed sexism written in games as part of that character's personality. This thread is nothing but opinionated and therefore the only thing that would inevitably please everyone is to just remove all sexism - period. Let's be honest; is that -really- what you want? Sexism is apart of life, just like Racism, etc.

Let me take the argument a step further: words are just words and are only words unless you understand the intent behind those words. I just feel like there are way too many delicate daisies here and if you don't like something you hear out of a character in a video game (throwing out the idea of actually roleplaying for a minute - because it seems there are a lot of people who play these games now not rp-ing) then just get rid of them.

I'm just kind of tired of these threads - especially the ''straight gamer vrs the homosexual gamer." Just look what it's made our game into! They made every single character in the game swing both ways - I have gay friends who think this is entirely ridiculous!

Let's just stop before every character in the game is a final fantasy cutout with the personality of a cartoon character - please for god sakes.

[abaris]

Braindeer wrote...

I would totally disagree with this. I don't recall any remarks about "women's roles" in DA:O (although I'm open to having my memory refreshed!)

Yeah, there are.

Sten of course and the mayor of Redcliffe, who puts in a few snide remarks before the battle starts. He starts off with some remarks and if you question him a bit further, he tries to dodge the issue.

There are a few others as well, but I'm only sure about these two.

Any0day wrote...

 I'm male; I'll state that off the bat
just to illustrate my perspective. I've always viewed sexism written in
games as part of that character's personality. This thread is nothing
but opinionated and therefore the only thing that would inevitably
please everyone is to just remove all sexism - period. Let's be honest;
is that -really- what you want? Sexism is apart of life, just like
Racism, etc.

Yeah, this. Life is full of not so pleasant people and we're talking a mature rated game after all.

Modifié par abaris, 23 avril 2011 - 08:22 .

[Maderas_]

This is nothing new. Feminists complain constantly about the sexual objectification of women but very rarely say anything about the objectification of men, even though television and magazines are jam packed with images of shirtless men sporting bulging pecs and rippling abs. BioWare uses it because life is full of double standards and it has become a common trope, which they always use in their games.

[Summarum]

Ymladdych wrote...
She wasn't saying that men are useless outside of sex; she was saying that men are "one trick ponies" when it comes to sex.  There's a difference.

There may be a difference but "men are one trick ponies when it comes to sex" is also a sexist statement, and taken at face value would demonstrate a lack of sexual imagination, which surely would be uncharacteristic of Isabela.

Someone posted that you can't expect video games to synch up with gender studies and another posted that this is in fact exemplary of what gender studies produce.  I can't say either way because I never studied sociology.

On the point of political correctness, however, this was never about that.  Nor is it "just about one line", and how you could get that idea, when Bioware games are full of examples, is beyond me.  It's already established that sexism appears throughout as a theme, or rather as two separate themes to which apparently completely different moral standards apply.  Male sexists are antagonists and are used to hammer home a point about how they get their comeuppance, while in women sexism appears to be a legitimate character trait and has no intrinsic effect on their role in the story.

This arrangement is deliberate on Bioware's part, and I'd like to know why.

I'm just kind of tired of these threads - especially the ''straight
gamer vrs the homosexual gamer." Just look what it's made our game into!
They made every single character in the game swing both ways - I have
gay friends who think this is entirely ridiculous!

This isn't about homosexuality, nor is it about removing sexism.  If you're too tired of these threads to even read the thread to see whether it's the kind of thread you're tired of, then I can't help you.

Modifié par Summarum, 23 avril 2011 - 08:32 .

[Braindeer]

abaris wrote...

Braindeer wrote...

I would totally disagree with this. I don't recall any remarks about "women's roles" in DA:O (although I'm open to having my memory refreshed!)

Yeah, there are.

Sten of course and the mayor of Redcliffe, who puts in a few snide remarks before the battle starts. He starts off with some remarks and if you question him a bit further, he tries to dodge the issue.

There are a few others as well, but I'm only sure about these two.

Ah, of course - thanks for reminding me! I still stand by my point though - when I played the game, I felt invited to mock these viewpoints, or at least question them. Especially Sten - I had forgotten about his ideas on women - but those were directly related to Qunari culture, and the fact that everyone has their place within the Qun - male and female - and all are equally unable, and unwilling to change their lot. We are not invited to see those views as either Bioware's, or as the presiding views of Thedas, and they are not representative of the rest of the game.

[LeBurns]

Seriously? This game was made for the male teenage CoD crowd. That includes big breast. Do you think EA/BW would give a hoot about being sexist? Really? Everything you said may be true but keep in mind ... They Don't Care.

[whykikyouwhy]

Maderas_ wrote...

This is nothing new. Feminists complain constantly about the sexual objectification of women but very rarely say anything about the objectification of men, even though television and magazines are jam packed with images of shirtless men sporting bulging pecs and rippling abs. BioWare uses it because life is full of double standards and it has become a common trope, which they always use in their games.

If I may make a brief counter to this - it can be argued that the pecs and abs on display are actually for the benefit of men. Many not in a sexualized way (though some men would very much appreciate the physiques), but in a way of promoting society's current image of perfection. The ideal man would be lean, muscular, handsome, well groomed, etc, because that is what gets you a good job and a beautiful woman on each arm. Not saying that I believe this...but I think it is very much the subversive and subliminal message underneath it all. The same, of course, goes for women - magazines and television shows promote the thin but well endowed girl, ever on the forefront of fashion, perfectly made-up, etc. Beauty sells for both sexes, and it evoles into the belief that this is what is we should strive for. Anything other than that is substandard.

[AlexXIV]

Bioware are sexist against men and women. Isn't that an oxymoron?

Modifié par AlexXIV, 23 avril 2011 - 09:22 .

[Tantum Dic Verbo]

This assault on the coming egalitarian utopia began back in Origins, when Teryna Cousland didn't hyphenate her last name. I was so furious that I hyphenated my own last name to show solidarity with my oppressed sisters in Thedas.

[Hyper Cutter]

Maderas_ wrote...
 Feminists complain constantly about the sexual objectification of women but very rarely say anything about the objectification of men

And in fact openly participate in same. The number of women who decry lesbian porn as "objectifying" while indulging in slash fiction and the like (ie THE SAME THING, just with the genders flipped) is rather amusing...

[aries1001]

Isn't Isabella the only female character nearly with big breasts in the game? What about Aveline who defies nearly every trope about women there has been and probably will be - she has a flat chest, doesn't she?

And Isabella's commenting on how men are 'one trick ponies' is in character for her. Isabella, as I see it, has connecting issues and problems with lasting ties to other people, including men. Thus such a snide remark can or may be seen as way of hiding insecurity. As such, Isabella is sleeping around with (many) men - she is highly sexual woman. Her clothing, her breasts, and everything in her demeanor, the way she carries herself, shows this. And there's also this to consider: Isabella is a pirate, she's basically the female version of the male sailor that has a women in each port - or in Isabella's case a man in each port.

Bioware's characters, I find, have been getting closer and closer to that of characters in a book, or even in a movie. As such, Bioware uses their characters, e.g. Isabella, to portray something about that character. And clothing and behavior are great ways doing this - to tell us what this character or these characters are all about. This does not mean that the Bioware writers (or Bioware) accepts sexism either way - it just means that they'll write the characters the way the need to be written - to fit the story they're telling. Just as in a movie - or in a book...

[adlocutio]

Tantum Dic Verbo wrote...

This assault on the coming egalitarian utopia began back in Origins, when Teryna Cousland didn't hyphenate her last name. I was so furious that I hyphenated my own last name to show solidarity with my oppressed sisters in Thedas.

*spit-take* Not sure why, I just got tickled @ this.

[_Aine_]

I've seen more sexism from some vocal fans regarding both Isabella and Aveline's appearance than I have from Bioware. Sure, there have been moments I have laughed and said "Wow, they really must not like women much." but a) I am laughing and it has nothing to do with appearances and rather something some character has said ( which could very likely just be in character for that character rather than some underlying statement on females )

Some people *are* sexist. Some characters are sexist. Tis life. Like it or not.

PS. When Rift was in beta, there was a HUGE outcry because the breasts were.... too small. Yeah, you heard it right: too small.

Sexism, not sexism... some people just love to complain I think is the moral of the story.

Modifié par shantisands, 23 avril 2011 - 10:37 .

[Cataca]

Just putting girls with big breasts in videogames isnt sexist, it only shows how bioware is unable to see how female physiology influences the way they are able to move, at least without a bra.

Beeing sexist would be... oh i dont know, picturing girls as either total ****s, or naive as can be. But in general, those are characters, and hardly a stance bioware takes against females. I would say that bioware is not really sexist, i cant remember one game they made where they wouldnt have strong and independant women either in the background or as protagonists.


Edit: I should stop skimming through posts to get the gist of it. Anyway, im not really sure i follow you here. I dont think bioware is deliberatly focusing on making female sexism a positive thing. In my oppinion, they are sideeffects of creating a character. Some will end up with some skewed morales and viewpoints.

Modifié par Cataca, 23 avril 2011 - 11:08 .