255 réponses à ce sujet

[XFistsClenchedX]

I don't think this game is sexist at all. Isabela might have big boobs, but Merrill doesn't. In fact, when I was playing the game I noticed that the game seemed to equally represent body shapes. Granted, there are no fat female characters in the game that I can recall, but Merrill is thin with small boobs, Isabela is the curvy sexpot with big boobs, and Aveline has broad shoulders and a more masculine figure. Bethany has only average size boobs. I think people are taking this sexism issue way too far.

[Tantum Dic Verbo]

Cataca wrote...

Just putting girls with big breasts in videogames isnt sexist, it only shows how bioware is unable to see how female physiology influences the way they are able to move, at least without a bra.
.

Profesional wrestling has proven that the more a woman looks like a stripper, the better she is at fighting.

[Any0day]

Tantum Dic Verbo wrote...


Profesional wrestling has proven that the more a woman looks like a stripper, the better she is at fighting.

It's as if game developers don't care what reality is when it comes to ''looks'' they only care what sells.
To be honest - I really don't see women athletes with huge knockers anywhere. Actually, even if they did it's not like they try to show it off every opportunity - if anything it's more of an insult to them. Wouldn't know, I'm far from a female athlete lol.

[Seena]

Any0day wrote...

Tantum Dic Verbo wrote...


Profesional wrestling has proven that the more a woman looks like a stripper, the better she is at fighting.

It's as if game developers don't care what reality is when it comes to ''looks'' they only care what sells.
To be honest - I really don't see women athletes with huge knockers anywhere. Actually, even if they did it's not like they try to show it off every opportunity - if anything it's more of an insult to them. Wouldn't know, I'm far from a female athlete lol.

Athletic women with huge knockers - usually have paid for them

[ji.Ruichi]

Erm.... okay.... I can see that people like the OP is starting to get bored already. BW, please release expansion to reduce nonsense like this!

[Cutlass Jack]

Seena wrote...

Athletic women with huge knockers - usually have paid for them

Pfft. Knockers are much cheaper than doorbells. Even brass ones.

[Gabey5]

oh lordie, bioware has some of the best representation of females in the gaming world... look at all the other companies befoire you post

[Tantum Dic Verbo]

Seena wrote...

Any0day wrote...

Tantum Dic Verbo wrote...


Profesional wrestling has proven that the more a woman looks like a stripper, the better she is at fighting.

It's as if game developers don't care what reality is when it comes to ''looks'' they only care what sells.
To be honest - I really don't see women athletes with huge knockers anywhere. Actually, even if they did it's not like they try to show it off every opportunity - if anything it's more of an insult to them. Wouldn't know, I'm far from a female athlete lol.

Athletic women with huge knockers - usually have paid for them

And bless them for doing so.  One of Nature's cruelest jokes is that breasts tend to shrink as a woman's body gets leaner.

[Ymladdych]

Summarum wrote...

Ymladdych wrote...
She wasn't saying that men are useless outside of sex; she was saying that men are "one trick ponies" when it comes to sex.  There's a difference.

**snip**

There may be a difference but "men are one trick ponies when it comes to sex" is also a sexist statement, and taken at face value would demonstrate a lack of sexual imagination, which surely would be uncharacteristic of Isabela.

**/snip**

I don't see it as a sexist statement.  You're neglecting the context: she was answering Merrill's question about how "being with a woman" is different than being with a man.  Merrill...a virginal ingenue that she loved to plague with cheeky "I know more than you, but I'm not telling" kind of banter.  The point wasn't to make men look bad, it was to make Merrill go, "Six things?  Really?  What things?!"  Which Merrill did, and it gave Isabela another chance to eyeroll at her and *tsk* at her ignorance.

But let's say it *is* sexist, for the sake of argument.  As I already wrote in my first post, Isabela isn't necessarily portrayed as a nice person worthy of the player's respect, so her being sexist actually fits, and it counters your claim that Bioware is glorifying male hatred.  

For one thing, Isabela's extremely selfish and narcissistic.  As any Psych 101 textbook will reveal, two pervasive traits of narcissist personalities are...

***wait for it***

lack of empathy and objectification of other individuals.  Proof that Isabela is this way?  Her lack of caring that Zevran killed her husband in DAO.  (She was just happy to get his ship afterwards.)  Her theft of the Qunari tome, which anyone with half a brain could see the "international crisis" potential of doing something like that; her subsequent withholding of information about the Qunari occupation; her betrayal of Hawke when she runs with the tome and indirectly causes the deaths of hundreds of people; her willingness to let a SLAVER go unpunished and free to continue slaving, just so she can own a ship again.

Then, of course, there's her aversion to intimacy and her sexual habits.  My intent isn't to debate the morality of promiscuity, but rather to illustrate her character's disinterest in anyone but herself.  Other people are objects to be used, not something you get attached to.  Plus, one could argue that her flippant attitude about catching an STD is a fairly unappealing personality trait.

And for the record, in DAO party banter, Zevran implies that Fereldan women are "dog ugly," and Alistair will give a hearty laugh before saying, "Now that you mention it..."

That's pretty sexist.  Against women.  And it involves 2 protagonists, one of which is the King of the Bioware Boyscouts.  (Alistair)

So...  <_<   Where's your leg to stand on again?  And are you bothering to make inquiries on other developer boards where their games have rampant "traditional" sexism?  I'm not saying that two wrongs make a right, but if you want to trade examples of "PC indoctrination," I can call your Isabela statement and raise you...(at least) 1,000 examples of "male chauvinist indoctrination."

[Gatt9]

I'll tell you why things are like this.

Go to your local gameshop and introduce yourself to the RPG group, carefully assess them. Go to your college and assess the Computer Science department.

The answer to your question will quickly become clear.

[Darkhour]

Summarum wrote...

Hey, everyone.

The discussions about female characters' breasts in Dragon Age 2 being too large (and this being sexist towards women) prompted me to remember something I've been meaning to ask Bioware for a long time, and the social network forums seem to be the preferred way of doing that.  For this thread, let's acknowledge that the character models are idealized pretty gender-symmetrically and not rehash the old arguments.  There is however a strange and illuminating irony in a character, who flat out says that "Men are only good for one thing", being called sexist towards women because she's too attractive.

Bioware stories, because they feature choices for the player, have always implied a moral context which exhibits itself in how choices are divided between those that are 'good' and those that are 'evil'; the morality is usually pretty heavy-handed.  Murder slavers and free the slaves, good.  Murder children and free their parents of custodial concerns, evil.  Slavery and killing children are wrong, is the implicit "Bioware stance".

Now we can get back to the sexism.  It's a long-standing tradition in Bioware games, but also in other games and especially in movies, to have this cliché scene where either the player character (if female) or a party member or other significant character, is accosted by or simply the target of sexist, belittling remarks.  "You should stay in the kitchen, hee-haa".  Then typically either the PC chooses to fight them, or is forced to, or the party member in question simply upstages them in a cutscene, either way they get shown up and morality points rain down upon all and we are reminded that gender stereotypes are bigoted and evil. (e.g. Isabela, DA:O , DA2)

Except when they aren't.  Eventually you'll run into tradition two, the "good sexist," and fellow protagonist.  I don't even need to tell you the only thing that sets them apart, the good sexists and the evil ones, because you already know, instinctively.  "Women are only good for one thing": death sentence.  "Men are only good for one thing": welcome to the party, you unique and interesting character, you.  Here's your halo.

This has been a constant companion of the Bioware player since at least Neverwinter Nights, and just as long it has made me kind of uncomfortable.  The distinction is recurring and therefore clearly deliberate.  Since it's deliberate, there is a reason for it, and that reason is what I want to know.

I find it sexiest against men that you can even be a female warrior or rogue who can defeat any man. It's emasculating to see Isabella beating up random kikrkwall ninja #359.

[Tommy6860]

Gatt9 wrote...

I'll tell you why things are like this.

Go to your local gameshop and introduce yourself to the RPG group, carefully assess them. Go to your college and assess the Computer Science department.

The answer to your question will quickly become clear.

So, the "sexism" in video games, are the result of the works from geeky male virgins/severely under-sexed computer literates?

Modifié par Tommy6860, 24 avril 2011 - 05:54 .

[Tantum Dic Verbo]

What's wrong with being sexy?

/Nigel Tufnel

[SirGladiator]

The idea that Isabella, or any other female character in any game, shouldnt look as good as possible, is just strange, and I disagree completely with it. It doesn't matter whether you're male or female, you'd probably rather see an attractive Isabella than an ugly Isabella. I'm glad that Isabella is attractive, quite frankly I wish there were more attractive female characters in the game, not less. Other than Isabella and Bethany, there's really not much to speak of, at least that I can recall. I'd say if there's any 'sexism' on Bioware's part, its that they dont have enough attractive women in the game, certainly there aren't too many, unless you just hate attractive women and one is too many for you. But on behalf of most of us, I'd just like to say 'more please' .

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

Ymladdych wrote...

Summarum wrote...

Ymladdych wrote...
She wasn't saying that men are useless outside of sex; she was saying that men are "one trick ponies" when it comes to sex.  There's a difference.

**snip**

There may be a difference but "men are one trick ponies when it comes to sex" is also a sexist statement, and taken at face value would demonstrate a lack of sexual imagination, which surely would be uncharacteristic of Isabela.

**/snip**

I don't see it as a sexist statement.  You're neglecting the context: she was answering Merrill's question about how "being with a woman" is different than being with a man.  Merrill...a virginal ingenue that she loved to plague with cheeky "I know more than you, but I'm not telling" kind of banter.  The point wasn't to make men look bad, it was to make Merrill go, "Six things?  Really?  What things?!"  Which Merrill did, and it gave Isabela another chance to eyeroll at her and *tsk* at her ignorance.

But let's say it *is* sexist, for the sake of argument.  As I already wrote in my first post, Isabela isn't necessarily portrayed as a nice person worthy of the player's respect, so her being sexist actually fits, and it counters your claim that Bioware is glorifying male hatred.  

For one thing, Isabela's extremely selfish and narcissistic.  As any Psych 101 textbook will reveal, two pervasive traits of narcissist personalities are...

***wait for it***

lack of empathy and objectification of other individuals.  Proof that Isabela is this way?  Her lack of caring that Zevran killed her husband in DAO.  (She was just happy to get his ship afterwards.)  Her theft of the Qunari tome, which anyone with half a brain could see the "international crisis" potential of doing something like that; her subsequent withholding of information about the Qunari occupation; her betrayal of Hawke when she runs with the tome and indirectly causes the deaths of hundreds of people; her willingness to let a SLAVER go unpunished and free to continue slaving, just so she can own a ship again.

Then, of course, there's her aversion to intimacy and her sexual habits.  My intent isn't to debate the morality of promiscuity, but rather to illustrate her character's disinterest in anyone but herself.  Other people are objects to be used, not something you get attached to.  Plus, one could argue that her flippant attitude about catching an STD is a fairly unappealing personality trait.

And for the record, in DAO party banter, Zevran implies that Fereldan women are "dog ugly," and Alistair will give a hearty laugh before saying, "Now that you mention it..."

That's pretty sexist.  Against women.  And it involves 2 protagonists, one of which is the King of the Bioware Boyscouts.  (Alistair)

So...  <_<   Where's your leg to stand on again?  And are you bothering to make inquiries on other developer boards where their games have rampant "traditional" sexism?  I'm not saying that two wrongs make a right, but if you want to trade examples of "PC indoctrination," I can call your Isabela statement and raise you...(at least) 1,000 examples of "male chauvinist indoctrination."

Though I agree that the context of the Isabella quote makes it clear that it's not a sexist remark (it was a jab at Merrill), the example of Zevran and Alistair also misses the context. Rather than being a swipe at women in general, it was a swipe at Fereldans.

For the record, Bioware tries to inject a healthy amount of progressive social views into their games, but I don't think it's overbearing or feel like it's shoved in my face. As for any hypocrisy in such views, well that's a different matter, but I don't see how Bioware's portrayal of men, woman and different forms of relationships contain any real double standards.

Opinions may vary, but I just can't see any of Bioware's games being sexist against either men or women.

[Summarum]

I have no idea how this turned into being about how the characters look again. No-one is saying the characters shouldn't look good.

And Isabella's commenting on how men are 'one trick ponies' is in character for her.

Again, of course it's in character for her, that isn't debated. Sexism is a valid character trait for female character. That doesn't really change that if she was a male character saying the equivalent things about women, nine times out of ten it would be someone we'd end up fighting to gain "good points".

This really isn't about whether the game or a character is sexist. It isn't about breasts or abs either, I had hoped to put those diversionary tangents to rest in the OP but I'll say it one more time, I don't believe idealized character physiques are "beneficial" (q. user whykikyouwhy) to anyone, but since both male and female characters are treated this way it's no longer discriminatory. I hope that paves a way for us to return to the actual topic.

Ymladdych, good post. It was long so I won't quote it all here, but can you really point out 1,000 instances of sexism in a male character that isn't there simply for the sake of vilifying the trait? I doubt that. And I haven't made other inquiries because I don't play many games, but that's highly irrelevant anyway since the issue is per developer, and we're discussing Bioware.

What's wrong with being sexy?

The idea that Isabella, or any other female character in any game, shouldnt look as good as possible

oh lordie, bioware has some of the best representation of females in the gaming world... look at all the other companies befoire you post

I am thoroughly compelled to say you should *read* before you post, but I doubt it will do any good.

[Any0day]

SirGladiator wrote...

The idea that Isabella, or any other female character in any game, shouldnt look as good as possible, is just strange, and I disagree completely with it. It doesn't matter whether you're male or female, you'd probably rather see an attractive Isabella than an ugly Isabella.  

By "rather" you mean "prefer?" No, not really. I hated what they did to Flemeth; she was much more mysterious as an old hag than a super-villian-costumed milf with plastic surgery and fake ******. I mean, you -do- realize that commoners let alone pirates had yellow and black teeth by the age of 22... right?

actually this leads me to an entirely new type of "-ism."

Look-ism: why does every black cape wearing hideous looking character that looks like he came out of a bad slasher film need to be the bad guy while all the good guys have the Biebler haircuts and perfect complexion.

Why can't we have the guy with a body-ridden hideous looking skin rash with a heart of gold?

Not saying I want there to be people who are entirely disgusting.... Actually, why the hell not? Why does everyone in the game need to look like a freakin porn star?

Modifié par Any0day, 24 avril 2011 - 08:08 .

[Inquisitor Recon]

Bioware is sexist? Great, your going to give Gaider more ideas on how to be ultra-politically correct. Expect Hawke to have to sit through mandatory "diversity appreciation" and "females in the workplace" seminars through half of DA3.

[borelocin]

Omg a video game had women with big boobies in it !?!?! Somebody should fax that to the newspapers immediately so they can get it into the morning edition in time for the paperboys to drop it off to our houses before work in the morning !!!!!

Yes I am taking the ******. This MIGHT have been news in the 80s.

[Dokarqt]

Any0day wrote...

. I mean, you -do- realize that commoners let alone pirates had yellow and black teeth by the age of 22... right?

Actually, no. Before the sugar trade started and all that commoners in medieval europe had almost perfect white teeth. It is believed to have been the lack of sugar coupled with something about the texture of the food that was mainly consumed.

Terry Gilliam once expressed in an interview that they made a mistake in Monty Python: The holy grail giving everyone dirty yellow rotten teeth since, later on, findings of teeth from sailors who lived many hundred years ago shows that the sailors had white, healthy teeth.

[Summarum]

ReconTeam wrote...

Bioware is sexist? Great, your going to give Gaider more ideas on how to be ultra-politically correct. Expect Hawke to have to sit through mandatory "diversity appreciation" and "females in the workplace" seminars through half of DA3.

borelocin wrote...

Omg a video game had women with big boobies in it !?!?! Somebody should fax that to the newspapers immediately so they can get it into the morning edition in time for the paperboys to drop it off to our houses before work in the morning !!!!!

Yes I am taking the ******. This MIGHT have been news in the 80s.

Is this some kind of elaborate and late April Fools joke or why are you people apparently replying to posts that don't exist?

You literally created in your mind an imaginary post where someone was outraged that a game has breasts, just so you could respond to that imaginary post with your "clever" and "cutting" sarcasm.  Get help.

Modifié par Summarum, 24 avril 2011 - 12:00 .

[Seena]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Seena wrote...

Athletic women with huge knockers - usually have paid for them

Pfft. Knockers are much cheaper than doorbells. Even brass ones.

Ya but remember knockers comein pairs...

[Persephone]

Well, I for one enjoyed having characters like Morrigan and Izzy in my games. (Loved their outfits too, heh! And Morri was way more...er...revealing)

[Seena]

Any0day wrote...
By "rather" you mean "prefer?" No, not really. I hated what they did to Flemeth; she was much more mysterious as an old hag than a super-villian-costumed milf with plastic surgery and fake ******. I mean, you -do- realize that commoners let alone pirates had yellow and black teeth by the age of 22... right?

actually this leads me to an entirely new type of "-ism."

Look-ism: why does every black cape wearing hideous looking character that looks like he came out of a bad slasher film need to be the bad guy while all the good guys have the Biebler haircuts and perfect complexion.

Why can't we have the guy with a body-ridden hideous looking skin rash with a heart of gold?

Not saying I want there to be people who are entirely disgusting.... Actually, why the hell not? Why does everyone in the game need to look like a freakin porn star?

Meh - I love what they did with Flemeth love love love it!

That being said - I'm pretty sensitive to sexist issues (and that might be a little hyperbole) - I didn't find anything sexist about how the toons were rendered.  Nor do I recall a lot of complaining that the toons were rendered in a sexist manner.

Male Hawke had a hot bod (appealing to women - and gay/bi men for that matter), and there was variance (Merril had small boobs)  in how the female toons physique's were handled.

The one thing I found lacking was a physique slider on character creation - that is sorely missed imo.

As for the issue of sexism - and people using these isolated comments (ie Isabela's comment about men being good for one thing, the Qunari not letting women be warriors) --  imo sexism isn't an isolated comment - it's a trend or theme, that is establish throught a game/book/movie. 

We are sexual beings - and anytime the genders mix there will be flirting/banter/innuendo etc.  Unfortunately some people can't distinguish between good natured back and forth (which is what Bioware incorporated into their dialogue) - and true sexism.

[CTM1]

You'll see that a lot on these forums, Summarum. It's one reason why I left. Part of the problem is that Bioware's forums have so many people in them, posting is fairly frequent. Information gets overlooked easily as a result.

The OP's point is rather simple, people, and it is this: sexism against women is treated as a bad thing, while sexism against men is treated as either a good or neutral thing. It has nothing to do with physical appearances, and it has nothing to do with how many examples of sexism against women you can point out vs. the opposite. It's about how the latter (sexism against men) consistently tends to be treated as something that isn't wrong or punishable, while the former simultaneously is.

When thinking of examples, thus (although that wasn't his intent, either; he just wanted to hear explanations for this double standard), Summarum is challenging you to list examples of a person making misandrist remarks and being punished for it in a way similar to a person making misogynist remarks. You'll find that when it comes to Bioware's games (or any, really--though again, this is about Bioware), you'll be hard-pressed to do so.

Modifié par CTM1, 24 avril 2011 - 03:58 .