255 réponses à ce sujet

[Seena]

Ymladdych wrote...

I don't see it as a sexist statement.  You're neglecting the context: she was answering Merrill's question about how "being with a woman" is different than being with a man.  Merrill...a virginal ingenue that she loved to plague with cheeky "I know more than you, but I'm not telling" kind of banter.  The point wasn't to make men look bad, it was to make Merrill go, "Six things?  Really?  What things?!"  Which Merrill did, and it gave Isabela another chance to eyeroll at her and *tsk* at her ignorance.

But let's say it *is* sexist, for the sake of argument.  As I already wrote in my first post, Isabela isn't necessarily portrayed as a nice person worthy of the player's respect, so her being sexist actually fits, and it counters your claim that Bioware is glorifying male hatred.  

For one thing, Isabela's extremely selfish and narcissistic.  As any Psych 101 textbook will reveal, two pervasive traits of narcissist personalities are...

***wait for it***

lack of empathy and objectification of other individuals.  Proof that Isabela is this way?  Her lack of caring that Zevran killed her husband in DAO.  (She was just happy to get his ship afterwards.)  Her theft of the Qunari tome, which anyone with half a brain could see the "international crisis" potential of doing something like that; her subsequent withholding of information about the Qunari occupation; her betrayal of Hawke when she runs with the tome and indirectly causes the deaths of hundreds of people; her willingness to let a SLAVER go unpunished and free to continue slaving, just so she can own a ship again.

Then, of course, there's her aversion to intimacy and her sexual habits.  My intent isn't to debate the morality of promiscuity, but rather to illustrate her character's disinterest in anyone but herself.  Other people are objects to be used, not something you get attached to.  Plus, one could argue that her flippant attitude about catching an STD is a fairly unappealing personality trait.

And for the record, in DAO party banter, Zevran implies that Fereldan women are "dog ugly," and Alistair will give a hearty laugh before saying, "Now that you mention it..."

That's pretty sexist.  Against women.  And it involves 2 protagonists, one of which is the King of the Bioware Boyscouts.  (Alistair)

So...  <_<   Where's your leg to stand on again?  And are you bothering to make inquiries on other developer boards where their games have rampant "traditional" sexism?  I'm not saying that two wrongs make a right, but if you want to trade examples of "PC indoctrination," I can call your Isabela statement and raise you...(at least) 1,000 examples of "male chauvinist indoctrination."

 
You make some good points. I do however question your labeling of Isabella as a narcissist. I don't agree - she sacrificed quite a bit to free that boatload of slaves, and she also tells Hawke if he hurts Merril that she'll (can't recall exactly what she said... but it was definitely something negative showing that she cared for Merril and was obviously protecting her).

Isabela has many layers. She works very hard to keep people at a distance because beneath that thorny exterior - there's a really big heart that's easily broken

[Teredan]

Seena wrote...

Isabela has many layers. She works very hard to keep people at a distance because beneath that thorny exterior - there's a really big heart that's easily broken

I really must have missed them. I always had the impression then she and her motivation can be described with the single word "hedonistic". Which I found rather sad.

Her letting the to be slaves run was nothing more than a hunch of her feeling displeasure from the idea of making them slaves. In one party banter she also answers that there were no deep reason she just did it.

But in her defense she has some kind of character progression during the game which sadly in my opinion falls little short. There could/should have been way more in act 3.

Modifié par Teredan, 24 avril 2011 - 04:10 .

[Seena]

Teredan wrote...

Seena wrote...

Isabela has many layers. She works very hard to keep people at a distance because beneath that thorny exterior - there's a really big heart that's easily broken

I really must have missed them. I always had the impression then she and her motivation can be described with the single word "hedonistic". Which I found rather sad.

Her letting the to be slaves run was nothing more than a hunch of her feeling displeasure from the idea of making them slaves. In one party banter she also answers that there were no deep reason she just did it.

But in her defense she has some kind of character progression during the game which sadly in my opinion falls little short. There could/should have been way more in act 3.

Being a hedonist doesn't make you a bad person, or preclude you from having empathy.  If she felt displeasure at being involved with making people slaves - she would have to have some degree of empathy for those people. In Hendonistic thought - she'd have avoided making them slaves, because to do so, would cause her pain.....

Because certain dialogues aren't triggered consistently - I think people miss a lot of character depth depending on which toons they use the most in their parties...

[Teredan]

Seena wrote...

Being a hedonist doesn't make you a bad person, or preclude you from having empathy.  If she felt displeasure at being involved with making people slaves - she would have to have some degree of empathy for those people. In Hendonistic thought - she'd have avoided making them slaves, because to do so, would cause her pain.....

Because certain dialogues aren't triggered consistently - I think people miss a lot of character depth depending on which toons they use the most in their parties...

I agree that's the reason why I didn't say that she was a bad person. Being a hedonist makes you a shallow person which can also described as a 1-dimensional character(even in the real world) which are very boring not to mention very unlikable.

Modifié par Teredan, 24 avril 2011 - 04:23 .

[Seena]

Teredan wrote...

I agree that's the reason why I didn't say that she was a bad person. Being a hedonist makes you a shallow person which can also described as a 1-dimensional character(even in the real world) which are very boring not to mention very unlikable.

Hmmm... I don't think you can say that being a Hendonist makes you shallow - and certainly it doesn't make you boring.

Henry Miller and the Marquis de Sade were both Hedonists - and they were both very complex and fascinating men.  John Stuart Mill also was a hedonist (with provisions)  - again, a fascinating man, who was moral and definitely not shallow....


{edit} I am curious as to why you think being a Hedonist makes you shallow, boring, and not likeable....

Modifié par Seena, 24 avril 2011 - 04:53 .

[Teredan]

Seena wrote...

Teredan wrote...

I agree that's the reason why I didn't say that she was a bad person. Being a hedonist makes you a shallow person which can also described as a 1-dimensional character(even in the real world) which are very boring not to mention very unlikable.

Hmmm... I don't think you can say that being a Hendonist makes you shallow - and certainly it doesn't make you boring.

Henry Miller and the Marquis de Sade were both Hedonists - and they were bother very complex and fascinating men.  John Stuart Mill also was a hedonist (with provisions)  - again, a fascinating man, who was moral and definitely not shallow....

Now I'm going over the fence without really knowing this guys, but I really doubt these guys were pure hedonist. They may have had hedonistic character traits, that surely had great impact on their life as a whole and would lead them to be  very complex people in the end.

Also the thing that makes hedonist shallow is that their motivation is very onesided, they always measure things by the degree of possible pleasure(which by all means is a very shallow motivation). For example when Isabella led the slaves go I got the impression that she did it not because she felt bad for them, but instead she felt bad for herself if she let them become slaves. (that's very questionable)

The kind of hedonist that I was speaking of is the one you might find among young adults.
For example I had quite a few friends that I would describe as pure hedonistic. They don't really do anything except partying every weekend and they're very content with that lifestyle which unquestionable lacks any kind of dimension.

And that's exactly the impression I got from Isabella during most of the game. With the things that happen in act 2 I was hoping she would get the character developement that would add depht to her but Bioware kinda ignored.

Without doubt people that grow out of their hedonistic disposition usually are deep because they knew the shallowness and strife for something greater.

Modifié par Teredan, 24 avril 2011 - 05:02 .

[Seena]

Teredan wrote...

Now I'm going over the fence without really knowing this guys, but I really doubt these guys were pure hedonist. They may have had hedonistic character traits, that surely had great impact on their life as a whole and would lead them to be  very complex people in the end.

The kind of hedonist that I was speaking of is the one you might find among young adults.
For example I had quite a few friends that I would describe as pure hedonistic. They don't really do anything except partying every weekend and they're very content with that lifestyle which unquestionable lacks any kind of dimension.

And that's exactly the impression I got from Isabella during most of the game. With the things that happen in act 2 I was hoping she would get the character developement that would add depht to her but Bioware kinda ignored.

I think you actually mean narcissist, not hedonist : )

[Teredan]

Seena wrote...

Teredan wrote...

Now I'm going over the fence without really knowing this guys, but I really doubt these guys were pure hedonist. They may have had hedonistic character traits, that surely had great impact on their life as a whole and would lead them to be  very complex people in the end.

The kind of hedonist that I was speaking of is the one you might find among young adults.
For example I had quite a few friends that I would describe as pure hedonistic. They don't really do anything except partying every weekend and they're very content with that lifestyle which unquestionable lacks any kind of dimension.

And that's exactly the impression I got from Isabella during most of the game. With the things that happen in act 2 I was hoping she would get the character developement that would add depht to her but Bioware kinda ignored.

I think you actually mean narcissist, not hedonist : )

Not really. Narcissism is a character disposition. Hedonism is a way of living driven by as I mentioned shallow motivations.

[Seena]

Teredan wrote...

Not really. Narcissism is a character disposition. Hedonism is a way of living driven by as I mentioned shallow motivations.

Then I think you might want to read more about Hedonism  : )

Modifié par Seena, 24 avril 2011 - 05:10 .

[Teredan]

Seena wrote...

Teredan wrote...

Not really. Narcissism is a character disposition. Hedonism is a way of living driven by as I mentioned shallow motivations.

I think you might want to read more about Hedonism  : )

I'm no Dr. on this but I had ethic, philosophy and psychology(yeah surprisingly at my school that was a topic in psychology) lesson in school. I think I have a good idea of what Hedonism indicates. But since I also learned how to prove a point here.

From wiki:
Hedonism is a school of thought which argues that pleasure is the only intrinsic good.[1] This is often used as a justification for evaluating actions in terms of how much pleasure and how little pain (i.e. suffering) they produce. In very simple terms, a hedonist strives to maximize this net pleasure (pleasure minus pain)

So how exactly does that differ from my statements.
(Yeah if I'm still wrong pls enlighten me and be very specific and clear on that)

Edit: also I'm kind of interested from where you in my answer you came to think of that I was talking about narcissist? The description of my friend I gave doesn't indicate any kind of conceitness which is pretty a requirement for narcissism.

Modifié par Teredan, 24 avril 2011 - 05:27 .

[jwcisneros]

Any0day wrote...

I'm just kind of tired of these threads - especially the ''straight gamer vrs the homosexual gamer." Just look what it's made our game into! They made every single character in the game swing both ways - I have gay friends who think this is entirely ridiculous!

Let's just stop before every character in the game is a final fantasy cutout with the personality of a cartoon character - please for god sakes.

From this gay gamer, it is rare to find depictions of same-sex love in any game. What you do not see as a member of the majority straight community is the constant reminder every day that I am a minority. Example advertising: Because of raw number differences and socialization, I am bombarded daily with messages to buy X product because it will make me "better with the ladies" (Old Spice, Axe, etc) or somehow buying that cheap, watered down light beer (Bud Light, Miller Light) allows me to throw parties at my house and in the process bevies of beautiful girls will flock to some strange alternate universe where guys are drinking really bad beer and still getting the ladies. Utter garbage.

Respectfully, I somehow doubt a depiction of gay romance (male or female) in a computer game is bothering your gay friends. Such depictions are not ridiculous, Odd how you think things are skewed, when in reality things have been skewed in favor of the straight community in media for ages. My pragmatic side understands why. But I find it refreshing that my main male character can find romance in the game. While I am equally thrilled with the Companion Aveline finally getting over losing her first husband and finding love in companion plotline I will reveal nothing else about.

In my opinion, Bioware does a great job with the depictions, they are tasteful and well developed, and NOT cartoony at all.
____________________________________________

Briefly on Isabella and Aveline: I believe the depictions of both of these characters are mature, complex and well developed. There is a difference between presenting sexist depictions unthinkingly in the manner a game say like...GTA might, and a developed world where they addressed equality between the sexes where the matter of gender equality in the military, hiearchy, and nobility has long been settled. (Please refer back to the story of the original Ser Aveline) Dragon Age is a large, developed world in progress...with a variety of depictions; they are telling a story...and along the way you are going to meet NPCs/Companions with no redeeming qualities.

Example, I despise Merrill...but not because she is female...but because she is utterly unconcerned with accepting responsibility for the consequences of her decisions. Her life is a tragedy of her own making...of her own choosing, and she is the most detestable companion I have found in a Bioware game. But I am not offended by her depiction.

I have been a consumer of Bioware products for a long time, and they consistently develop their products with strong characters, interesting backgrounds, and have learned from their loyal audience what they want. EA has brought some corporate baggage to the party, but that is the price of success.

~J

Modifié par jwcisneros, 24 avril 2011 - 05:25 .

[Seena]

Teredan wrote...


I'm no Dr. on this but I had ethic, philosophy and psychology(yeah surprisingly at my school that was a topic in psychology) lesson in school. I think I have a good idea of what Hedonism indicates. But since I also learned how to prove a point here.

From wiki:
Hedonism is a school of thought which argues that pleasure is the only intrinsic good.[1] This is often used as a justification for evaluating actions in terms of how much pleasure and how little pain (i.e. suffering) they produce. In very simple terms, a hedonist strives to maximize this net pleasure (pleasure minus pain)

So how exactly does that differ from my statements.

I have to say - wiki imo isn't the place to gather reliable info : )

Most people are intrinsic hedonists.  We do what gives us pleasure, and strive to avoid that which gives us pain, or discomfort.   :  )    Even a masochist is a hedonist - because in their pain, they receieve pleasure.

I guess where I have issues, is that you associate a desire to pursue pleasure and avoid pain,  with being shallow and one dimensional.  Imo that isn't the case at all.... If a person's interests are diverse - they will pursue these interests and therefore be a multi-dimensional person. If their interest is simply playing video games all day - they most definitely will have problems being considered multi-faceted.

You may have experienced Isabela as one dimensional (again I did not) -    but imo it is most definitely not because of her hedonistic tendencies.   : )

Modifié par Seena, 24 avril 2011 - 05:41 .

[Teredan]

Seena wrote...

1. I have to say - wiki imo isn't the place to gather reliable info : )

2. Most people are intrinsic hedonists.  3. We do what gives us pleasure, and strive to avoid that which gives us pain, or discomfort.   :  )    Even a masochist is a hedonist - because in their pain, they receieve pleasure.

4. I guess where I have issues, is that you associate a desire to pursue pleasure and avoid pain,  with being shallow and one dimensional.  Imo that isn't the case at all....

5. You may have experienced Isabela as one dimensional (again I did not) -    but imo it is most definitely not because of her 6. hedonistic tendencies.   : )

1. That's a lazy defense argument I have read the definition and it overlaps with the definition I've read in books from school. So I deemed it as valid enough.

2. Okay let me ask you this how can someone be a extrinsic hedonistic(I really want to know that)? Pleasure is something you feel and feelings are by nature intrinsic. It only makes sense if you speak of motivations.

3. That statement is kind of wrong. A masochist is not a hedonist just because they receive pleasure through pain as in the same vein a altruistic living person is not a hedonist because they receive pleasure through helping others. A hedonist is a person that is solely focused on the pursuit of pleasure.

So a hedonist can include being a masochist but being a masochist does not automatically make you a hedonist.

4. It's a common association of hedonism. Because the important thing for a hedonist is instant gratification and that's in itself pretty primitive.

5. I got that already from your post and you summarizing my own already explained experiences is kind of redundant.

6. That's the problem I had, I experienced them not as tendencies.It's not a trait of her she lives by that philosophy during most of the game.

Again it was beginning to change in Act 2 but it really fell flat.

PS: You really have to correct your idea of the concept of hedonism.

Edit: also I'm kind of interested from where in my answer you came to think of that I was talking about a narcissist? The description of my friends I gave doesn't indicate any kind of conceitedness which is pretty much a requirement for narcissism.

Modifié par Teredan, 24 avril 2011 - 05:59 .

[Tantum Dic Verbo]

Seena wrote...

Most people are intrinsic hedonists.  We do what gives us pleasure, and strive to avoid that which gives us pain, or discomfort.   :  )    Even a masochist is a hedonist - because in their pain, they receieve pleasure.

That's not what hedonism is. 

[Seena]

Teredan wrote...

Seena wrote...

1. I have to say - wiki imo isn't the place to gather reliable info : )

2. Most people are intrinsic hedonists.  3. We do what gives us pleasure, and strive to avoid that which gives us pain, or discomfort.   :  )    Even a masochist is a hedonist - because in their pain, they receieve pleasure.

4. I guess where I have issues, is that you associate a desire to pursue pleasure and avoid pain,  with being shallow and one dimensional.  Imo that isn't the case at all....

5. You may have experienced Isabela as one dimensional (again I did not) -    but imo it is most definitely not because of her 6. hedonistic tendencies.   : )

1. That's a lazy defense argument I have read the definition and it overlaps with the definition I've read in books from school. So I deemed it as valid enough.

2. Okay let me ask you this how can someone be a extrinsic hedonistic(I really want to know that)? Pleasure is something you feel and feelings are by nature intrinsic.

3. That statement is kind of wrong. A masochist is not a hedonist just because they receive pleasure through pain as in the same vein a altruistic living person is not a hedonist because they receive pleasure through helping others. A hedonist is a person that is solely focused on the pursuit of pleasure.

So a hedonist can include being a masochist but being a masochist does not automatically make you a hedonist.

4. It's a common association of hedonism. Because the important thing for a hedonist is instant gratification and that's in itself pretty primitive.

5. I got that already from your post and you summarizing my own already explained experiences is kind of redundant.

6. That's the problem I head I experienced them not as tendencies.It's not a trait of her he always lives by that philosophy.

Again it was beginning to change in Act 2 but it really fell flat.

PS: You really have to correct your idea of the concept of hedonism.

Edit: also I'm kind of interested from where in my answer you came to think of that I was talking about a narcissist? The description of my friends I gave doesn't indicate any kind of conceitedness which is pretty much a requirement for narcissism.

I believe that you are the one that really has miscontrued the philosopy of hedonism.  It is not about "instant gratification" .

You are reading into hedonism that it must be selfish and shallow.  That simply is not the case.

A person who considers themselves a hedonist - may gain pleasure in fighting for social causes, or helping the elderly. They might find pleasure in working at a soup kitchen, or tending to people who are ill.

  We each find pleasure in our own way. 

*Narcissism* is one dimensional and selfish.  A  narcissist is concerend about themselves only - and that tendency is essential to the concept of narcissim.

[Teredan]

Seena wrote...

1. I believe that you are the one that really has miscontrued the philosopy of hedonism.  It is not about "instant gratification" .

You are reading into hedonism that it must be selfish and shallow.  That simply is not the case.

2. A person who considers themselves a hedonist - 3. may gain pleasure in fighting for social causes, or helping the elderly. They might find pleasure in working at a soup kitchen, or tending to people who are ill.

  We each find pleasure in our own way. 

4. *Narcissism* is one dimensional and selfish.  A  narcissist is concerend about themselves only - and that tendency is essential to the concept of narcissim.

1. It's pretty clear by that point that it's you that doesn't get what hedonism entails.
2. It does not matter what a person considers himself. If he's not he's not.
3. Again read Nr.3 in my previous post.
4. That's so wrong.......... You described a egoist. Again Narcissist are by nature egoistic but a egoist doesn't have to be a narcissist.

Last but not least we are arguing about Isabella. Now explain to me what exactly makes her the deep character that you found to experience. It was made pretty clear that she only works to have money for drinking and the services of the bordell(the name escapes me at the moment).
These 2 are shallow motivation. And again her decision at the end of act 2 was the first step for her to change. But it wasn't really touched upon in act 3 which makes her in my eyes very 1 dimensional.

I won't continue to argue on these points anymore if you want to continue to believe you're right please do so. But don't be baffled if you run into further misunderstanding if you continue to use those words with your current understanding of them.

Modifié par Teredan, 24 avril 2011 - 06:14 .

[Seena]

Teredan wrote...

Seena wrote...

1. I believe that you are the one that really has miscontrued the philosopy of hedonism.  It is not about "instant gratification" .

You are reading into hedonism that it must be selfish and shallow.  That simply is not the case.

2. A person who considers themselves a hedonist - 3. may gain pleasure in fighting for social causes, or helping the elderly. They might find pleasure in working at a soup kitchen, or tending to people who are ill.

  We each find pleasure in our own way. 

4. *Narcissism* is one dimensional and selfish.  A  narcissist is concerend about themselves only - and that tendency is essential to the concept of narcissim.

1. It's pretty clear by that point that it's you that doesn't get what hedonism entails.
2. It does not matter what a person considers himself. If he's not he's not.
3. Again read Nr.3 in my previous post.
4. That's so wrong.......... You described a egoist. Again Narcissist are by nature egoistic but a egoist doesn't have to be a narcissist.

I won't continue to argue on these points anymore if you want to continue to believe you're right please do so. But don't be baffled if you run into further misunderstanding if you continue to use those words with your current understanding of them.

Hedonism is a philosophical school of thought.  Whether you want to believe so or not.     And it is not, by definition shallow or selfish.  Nor have you produced any evidence to that point.

Modifié par Seena, 24 avril 2011 - 06:19 .

[Teredan]

Seena wrote...

Hedonism is a philosophical school of thought.  Whether you want to believe so or not. 

....
I think there must be something wrong with you because that's exactly
what I was telling you over and over again in the last posts. Again
explaining to me what I already know is redundant thank you....
Not to mention your previous description of it didn't make it seem like you understood it.

But still you felt like correcting me on something that wasn't wrong in the first place.

Seena wrote...
I think you actually mean narcissist, not hedonist : )

Well anyways have fun with your ignorance it's too tiring here.

Modifié par Teredan, 24 avril 2011 - 06:26 .

[Teredan]

Tantum Dic Verbo wrote...

Seena wrote...

Most people are intrinsic hedonists.  We do what gives us pleasure, and strive to avoid that which gives us pain, or discomfort.   :  )    Even a masochist is a hedonist - because in their pain, they receieve pleasure.

That's not what hedonism is. 

Thank you!

Seena wrote...

Hedonism is a philosophical school of
thought.  Whether you want to believe so or not.     And it is not, by
definition shallow or selfish.  Nor have you produced any evidence to
that point.

http://plato.stanfor...tries/hedonism/
read that and come back

Modifié par Teredan, 24 avril 2011 - 06:38 .

[Kajan451]

Maderas_ wrote...

This is nothing new. Feminists complain constantly about the sexual objectification of women but very rarely say anything about the objectification of men, even though television and magazines are jam packed with images of shirtless men sporting bulging pecs and rippling abs.

Social equality, no matter about which aspects of our social life, are only carried as far as it doesn't provide an disadvantage for those who want to be "equal".


A women screaming for sexual equality, on the sight of another woman who does measure up to the social beautiy standards and thus is lauded for their beauty, is most likely only screaming "foul play" because she does lack the same advantage and boons the other women received. Likewise she hardly cares if a man is displayed like that, maybe even finding the sight pleasing and enjoying it.

You can take this even a bit furthur into the domain of homosexuality. Where homosexuals fight for equal rights, totally neglegating transgenders or bisexuals, because it doesn't concern them.

Or in a society where skin color might be an issue you might find black people fighting for equal rights but at the same time have the odd occurance of having Hairsalons run by black people only serving black customers, but running amok if a hairsalon run by white people would do the same.

Its just the whole subject of Equality is rather difficult to adress. People will be offended by being called hypocrites if you point out that, deep down they are basically being intollerant to other social groups while at the same time demanding tollerance and equality for their own.


A man can't go around and claim what kind of stud he is, without being called a relict and neandertaler... likewise a woman doing that, seeing series like Sex in the City, its called a "freedom strike, finally showing that women can be independent as well". Imagine a show like Sex in the City had been about 4 Men, doing the very same things. Maybe shopping for Electronics or Carparts instead of shoes. The outcry had been enourmous, instead of lauding the performance and conception of the show.

Thats just how our society is today. I don't think Bioware did give it much thought, but rather wanted Isabella and a couple of their other Characters, to appear as strong, independent women.

[Any0day]

jwcisneros wrote...

Respectfully, I somehow doubt a depiction of gay romance (male or female) in a computer game is bothering your gay friends. Such depictions are not ridiculous, Odd how you think things are skewed, when in reality things have been skewed in favor of the straight community in media for ages.

I think you missed my point entirely. I have no problem with gay romance (if you honestly call anything in this game a romance) and neither do my friends who are gay. However, one thing we all agree on is the sheer amount of ''swing either way'' mentality by all characters it's pretty ridiculous and just unreasonable. It just casts all characters as carbon copies of eachother when they all share one sexual preference.

I know why they did this, too. It's because there was a lot of pressure from homosexual and bisexual groups to include these romances in the game. --- and I was on their side, man. I totally get it, but they went a little overboard to the 9th degree. Maybe it has something to do with how ''easy'' these characters are; I don't know, without even trying I had anders and merril both ambushing me at my house and all I did was compliment them a few times.

edit: For the record: maybe it happens to just be the  people  I socialize with or hang around, but as far as being oppressed, you couldn't be further from the truth where I live.

Modifié par Any0day, 24 avril 2011 - 06:52 .

[PSUHammer]

Tantum Dic Verbo wrote...

This assault on the coming egalitarian utopia began back in Origins, when Teryna Cousland didn't hyphenate her last name. I was so furious that I hyphenated my own last name to show solidarity with my oppressed sisters in Thedas.

Now THAT is comedy. 

[PSUHammer]

CTM1 wrote...

You'll see that a lot on these forums, Summarum. It's one reason why I left. Part of the problem is that Bioware's forums have so many people in them, posting is fairly frequent. Information gets overlooked easily as a result.

The OP's point is rather simple, people, and it is this: sexism against women is treated as a bad thing, while sexism against men is treated as either a good or neutral thing. It has nothing to do with physical appearances, and it has nothing to do with how many examples of sexism against women you can point out vs. the opposite. It's about how the latter (sexism against men) consistently tends to be treated as something that isn't wrong or punishable, while the former simultaneously is.

When thinking of examples, thus (although that wasn't his intent, either; he just wanted to hear explanations for this double standard), Summarum is challenging you to list examples of a person making misandrist remarks and being punished for it in a way similar to a person making misogynist remarks. You'll find that when it comes to Bioware's games (or any, really--though again, this is about Bioware), you'll be hard-pressed to do so.

It is always that way with the perceived "majority." White, straight men are the only demographic allowed to be denigrated in media. It is socially acceptable and trendy! Hypocrisy be damned!!

As a comparison to the sexism point, look at the freedom comedians like Chris Rock, Richard Pryor and Dave Chappell have had in making fun of white people. Usually it is spot on and funny, but generally considered acceptable by society. 
 
Whereas, white comics generally don’t tell the same types of jokes against minorities. It happens, but with much less frequency and acceptance. It’s the world we live in.

Modifié par Hammer6767, 24 avril 2011 - 07:05 .

[Darkhour]

Hammer6767 wrote...

CTM1 wrote...

You'll see that a lot on these forums, Summarum. It's one reason why I left. Part of the problem is that Bioware's forums have so many people in them, posting is fairly frequent. Information gets overlooked easily as a result.

The OP's point is rather simple, people, and it is this: sexism against women is treated as a bad thing, while sexism against men is treated as either a good or neutral thing. It has nothing to do with physical appearances, and it has nothing to do with how many examples of sexism against women you can point out vs. the opposite. It's about how the latter (sexism against men) consistently tends to be treated as something that isn't wrong or punishable, while the former simultaneously is.

When thinking of examples, thus (although that wasn't his intent, either; he just wanted to hear explanations for this double standard), Summarum is challenging you to list examples of a person making misandrist remarks and being punished for it in a way similar to a person making misogynist remarks. You'll find that when it comes to Bioware's games (or any, really--though again, this is about Bioware), you'll be hard-pressed to do so.

It is always that way with the perceived "majority." White, straight men are the only demographic allowed to be denigrated in media. It is socially acceptable and trendy! Hypocrisy be damned!!

As a comparison to the sexism point, look at the freedom comedians like Chris Rock, Richard Pryor and Dave Chappell have had in making fun of white people. Usually it is spot on and funny, but generally considered acceptable by society. 
 
Whereas, white comics generally don’t tell the same types of jokes against minorities. It happens, but with much less frequency and acceptance. It’s the world we live in.

Exactly.

White men are running the show.  It's OK for the underdog to talk smack about the guy on top because, well, he's the guy on top.  Honestly, the underdog can say whatever they like but in the end of the day they are still second or third class citizens in a sytem of white supremacy. Women, in general, are underdogs. 

It's like a poor man making jokes about a rich man. Ha Ha. (I still live in a mansion while you live in acardboard box). But it would just be downright rude for a rich man to make fun of someone less fortunate man.  You's just be throwing salt into the wound. 

[Seena]

Teredan wrote...


http://plato.stanfor...tries/hedonism/
read that and come back

Quotes from your link:::

Motivational hedonism is the claim that only pleasure or pain motivates us.
 
(Which is completely consistent with my definition).  Please, quote from your source where it says that hedonism must lead to selfish acts and one dimensionality.

You can argue that a hedonist acts selflessly for selfish reasons (ie when a hedonist saves a life they do so because it makes them feel good) - but that does not negate the positive nature of the act itself.

Hedonists pursue pleasure and feel that things which give pleasure - are inherently good.  They avoid pain, and feel that things that give pain are inherently bad..

It's really that simple.