255 réponses à ce sujet

[Seena]

Kajan451 wrote...

[
A man can't go around and claim what kind of stud he is, without being called a relict and neandertaler... .

Um.... can you proviide some examples of this?

I have to say I have never heard anyone say anything of the sort.

Conversely - as evidenced by the visceral response to Isabela's healthy sexual appetites - women who have them - are ****s, loose, ****s, skanks, tramps, bimbos, floozies, nymphos, harlots,  strumpets, slatterns,  etc.

[jwcisneros]

Any0day wrote...

jwcisneros wrote...

Respectfully, I somehow doubt a depiction of gay romance (male or female) in a computer game is bothering your gay friends. Such depictions are not ridiculous, Odd how you think things are skewed, when in reality things have been skewed in favor of the straight community in media for ages.

I think you missed my point entirely. I have no problem with gay romance (if you honestly call anything in this game a romance) and neither do my friends who are gay. However, one thing we all agree on is the sheer amount of ''swing either way'' mentality by all characters it's pretty ridiculous and just unreasonable. It just casts all characters as carbon copies of eachother when they all share one sexual preference.

I know why they did this, too. It's because there was a lot of pressure from homosexual and bisexual groups to include these romances in the game. --- and I was on their side, man. I totally get it, but they went a little overboard to the 9th degree. Maybe it has something to do with how ''easy'' these characters are; I don't know, without even trying I had anders and merril both ambushing me at my house and all I did was compliment them a few times.

edit: For the record: maybe it happens to just be the  people  I socialize with or hang around, but as far as being oppressed, you couldn't be further from the truth where I live.

I do not doubt you live in a very accepting community, and I am talking about depictions, not reality.

You are going to get a bit of the "carbon copy" and "cookie cutter" in all RPG's...and as companies attempt to get a balanced depiction in role-playing of sexual and romantic affairs between people, mistakes will be made.

As far as your "pressure" comment, you sound like you resent the fact that human beings who are bombarded every day with endless, thoughtless depictions of heterosexually normative ideas. I live in a world where we (gays, lesbians, bisexuals AND transgendered) have very few depictions that are accurate for our community, and we are starved for role-models, accurate reporting of our history...and you are NOT an accurate judge of how oppressed we or any other minority groups are...you are not in our shoes.

I appreciate the options Bioware has given us, that earns a measure of loyalty from me.

Respects,

~J

Modifié par jwcisneros, 24 avril 2011 - 08:22 .

[Any0day]

jwcisneros wrote...

As far as your "pressure" comment, you sound like you resent the fact that human beings who are bombarded every day with endless, thoughtless depictions of heterosexually normative ideas. I live in a world where we (gays, lesbians, bisexuals AND transgendered) have very few depictions that are accurate for our community, and we are starved for role-models, accurate reporting of our history...

I'm just going to end the conversation here, because not only are you not getting my point - but you're taking everything I say to be offensive.

and you are NOT an accurate judge of how oppressed we or any other minority groups are...you are not in our shoes.

... and what shoes do you percieve me to be in --- exactly? Seriously we could play the ''who has the worse lot in life'' thing, but really that's just depressing. I -am- in fact part of a ''group'' to which a lot of people in that ''group'' consider themselves to be oppressed because of the lack of attention or understanding by the majority of society. I'm only as accurate of a judge as I percieve the world from my view as you do. While I do understand that some of the concerns can be legitimate, I'm not a delicate little daisy and I tend not to be offended by small things, even if they tend to be apart of someone's everyday vocabulary of words. That said, if you tend to be offended simply by omission in a particular media, it's honestly my opinion that you move on to a media more suitable to your lifestyle.


Regardless, my entire post was sort of taken as resentment that there are gay romance depictions, when that's not what I was saying at all. I simply said that there should be variety. I'd much rather have, say 3 npcs - one gay, onebisexual, and one straight - then all three be bisexual. It's just lazy writting - it's like someone complaining that it's a hot day and you dumping a swimming pool of ice cold water on them to solve the problem.

[PSUHammer]

Any0day wrote...
Regardless, my entire post was sort of taken as resentment that there are gay romance depictions, when that's not what I was saying at all. I simply said that there should be variety. I'd much rather have, say 3 npcs - one gay, onebisexual, and one straight - then all three be bisexual. It's just lazy writting - it's like someone complaining that it's a hot day and you dumping a swimming pool of ice cold water on them to solve the problem.

No worries, man.  I think most people get what you are saying.  It was a little jarring that everyone seemed to be swinging both ways.  I actually wish they spent more time fleshing out the romances for a few of the characters instead of trying to shoehorn basic romance options in for everyone to be "all inclusive".

Honestly...the most interesting romance story in the game was Aveline's.  And that wasn't even one the PC could contribute to!

[Tirigon]

Summarum wrote...

Hey, everyone.

The discussions about female characters' breasts in Dragon Age 2 being too large (and this being sexist towards women)

Sorry for the harsh words but... what kind of complete idiot thinks like that?


That aside, has anyone ever looked at elf breasts? That´s not large, it´s the opposite.

[Seena]

Any0day wrote...

Regardless, my entire post was sort of taken as resentment that there are gay romance depictions, when that's not what I was saying at all. I simply said that there should be variety. I'd much rather have, say 3 npcs - one gay, onebisexual, and one straight - then all three be bisexual. It's just lazy writting - it's like someone complaining that it's a hot day and you dumping a swimming pool of ice cold water on them to solve the problem.

With respect to this choice - I think Bioware was in a no win situation.  If they made each character with a specific sexual orientation - people would complain that they couldn't romance the char of their choice.  In making everyone "romanceable" -  (it is, granted unrealistic) and made some people uncomfortable (imo that's more their own problem, than it is Bioware's - but that's another discussion)     but that choice allowed more options.

Personally I like the option of being able to romance any of my companions....  But that's just me. I've never let a person's gender determine whether or not I fall in love with them

Modifié par Seena, 24 avril 2011 - 08:55 .

[PSUHammer]

Seena wrote...

With respect to this choice - I think Bioware was in a no win situation.  If they made each character with a specific sexual orientation - people would complain that they couldn't romance the char of their choice.  In making everyone "romanceable" -  (it is, granted unrealistic) and made some people uncomfortable (imo that's more their own problem, than it is Bioware's - but that's another discussion)     but that choice allowed more options.

Personally I like the option of being able to romance any of my companions....  But that's just me. I've never let a person's gender determine whether or not I fall in love with them

One could argue that this is more like real life, and hence make the decision making in the game more realistic and enjoyable.

[Seena]

Hammer6767 wrote...
One could argue that this is more like real life, and hence make the decision making in the game more realistic and enjoyable.

Erm.... personally I find the term RPG in a fantasy world, and "realistic" - oxymoronic. 

[JabbaDaHutt30]

Seena wrote...

Kajan451 wrote...

[
A man can't go around and claim what kind of stud he is, without being called a relict and neandertaler... .

Um.... can you proviide some examples of this? 

I have to say I have never heard anyone say anything of the sort.

Conversely - as evidenced by the visceral response to Isabela's healthy sexual appetites - women who have them - are ****s, loose, ****s, skanks, tramps, bimbos, floozies, nymphos, harlots,  strumpets, slatterns,  etc.

And... which word doesn't apply to Isabela? 

Modifié par JabbaDaHutt30, 24 avril 2011 - 09:07 .

[Gotholhorakh]

Double post - it was hidden by the man who posted below this! Gadzooks, sorry.

Modifié par Gotholhorakh, 24 avril 2011 - 09:13 .

[PSUHammer]

Seena wrote...

Hammer6767 wrote...
One could argue that this is more like real life, and hence make the decision making in the game more realistic and enjoyable.

Erm.... personally I find the term RPG in a fantasy world, and "realistic" - oxymoronic. 

Yes, to an extent, that is true.  Fire breathing dragons and magical lighting isn't very realistic.  BUT, one of the reasons we can get sucked into these worlds is humanizing the inhabitants and adding some semblance of our reality.  Usually, the people involved share our same motivations, morals, and relationships.  The world around them is the fantasy.

[Gotholhorakh]

I will say here that I am firmly in support of the way BioWare have generally written, developed and visualised the characters in-game that surround my own and give it a world to live in.

I know I come across as a RP nutter here, but where my character would object to that sort of thing it never seems to be an issue because they are not outside the "normal" mode of dress.

Of course I'm prepared to accept that years of repression and being treated as objects in real life gives women a certain perspective against sexism that is (I'm sorry guys) more valid and understandable than a man objecting to it, but realistically, aesthetically, I am perfectly happy gaming in a fantasy world where people have skinny waists and big muscles/big boobs a lot of the time.

For me, the surroundings, are sexually, racially, geopolitically etc there already when I arrive, and not necessarily to my spec, just like a real world. As long as i get the lovely, delicious illusion that I'm shaping my own character and path through it, and as long as the world is interesting, its makeup can be as sixpack filled as the writers and designers want it to be


Edit: Let me put it this way: If I pick ten books that I love, really love, and then they were edited to appease my moral sensibilities or those of other people, that would be VANDALISM.

I would never be so presumptuous to want writing/art changed to suit my worldview, I hope that most of us wouldn't.

Modifié par Gotholhorakh, 24 avril 2011 - 09:17 .

[Seena]

Hammer6767 wrote...

Yes, to an extent, that is true.  Fire breathing dragons and magical lighting isn't very realistic.  BUT, one of the reasons we can get sucked into these worlds is humanizing the inhabitants and adding some semblance of our reality.  Usually, the people involved share our same motivations, morals, and relationships.  The world around them is the fantasy.

I do see what you're saying - but I don't agree.  Sharing motivations, morals, and relationships? ---  how does that account for murder, stealing, being an overall bastage etc..... ??? (Meaning are we to assume that people who choose these options in an RPG are morally bereft in real life?)

Imo an RPG is a chance to do/be that which you cannot/would not irl.

You have the choice in DAO/DA2 to not pursue homosexual/bisexual relationships....  it isn't forced on you. 

Modifié par Seena, 24 avril 2011 - 09:18 .

[Tirigon]

Seena wrote...


Imo an RPG is a chance to do/be that which you cannot/would not irl.

True, but it is also a chance to do what you would do in RL if you were the most powerful person in the entire universe.

[the_one_54321]

Summarum wrote...
[original post]

It's a common theme in most media. Sexism against women is wrong because they have suffered for it for generations. But sexism against men is funny and appropriate, because men have been on top for generations. It is the usual reactionism that causes more problems than good that permeates most of human interactions. You've identified one more way in which it rears its ugly head.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 24 avril 2011 - 09:30 .

[Gotholhorakh]

Tirigon wrote...

Seena wrote...


Imo an RPG is a chance to do/be that which you cannot/would not irl.

True, but it is also a chance to do what you would do in RL if you were the most powerful person in the entire universe.

Heh, yes that's part of what was said... "Cannot".

More to the point, isn't it wonderful that in the RPG community those of us who are not necessarily into all of the choices available (for instance gay romance) will still champion the existence of such a thing, because we play cRPGs to be able to make whatever choices we want for our character (or more accurately to have the illusion of doing so skillfully wrought for us by developers) so we can enjoy the experience.

More choices in RPGs, as long as they are wrought skilfully by masters like David Gaider, and Mr Laidlaw (let's not forget the brilliant genius because of ONE buggered up project), are always good.


I'd hate to gradually move towards simpler adventure games and lose that kind of choice, that kind of genuine, interested community member, that kind of involved and deep gameplay.

Modifié par Gotholhorakh, 24 avril 2011 - 09:30 .

[PSUHammer]

Seena wrote...

Hammer6767 wrote...

Yes, to an extent, that is true.  Fire breathing dragons and magical lighting isn't very realistic.  BUT, one of the reasons we can get sucked into these worlds is humanizing the inhabitants and adding some semblance of our reality.  Usually, the people involved share our same motivations, morals, and relationships.  The world around them is the fantasy.

I do see what you're saying - but I don't agree.  Sharing motivations, morals, and relationships? ---  how does that account for murder, stealing, being an overall bastage etc..... ??? (Meaning are we to assume that people who choose these options in an RPG are morally bereft in real life?)

Imo an RPG is a chance to do/be that which you cannot/would not irl.

You have the choice in DAO/DA2 to not pursue homosexual/bisexual relationships....  it isn't forced on you. 

Actually, what I am referring to is that the people in these worlds (NPCs and PCs) enhabit those traits.  Whether or not you choose to be a murderer is up to you, but generally the game world treats murderers like we do in real life.

And, I am perfectly fine with the options to engage in all types of relationships.  My argument is it should be more focused so the stories could be fleshed out more.

[Seena]

Hammer6767 wrote...

Actually, what I am referring to is that the people in these worlds (NPCs and PCs) enhabit those traits.  Whether or not you choose to be a murderer is up to you, but generally the game world treats murderers like we do in real life. 

Hmm.... Hawke gets away with murder throughout the game, without any repercussions what -so-ever....

Although I suppose one could argue "self-defense" in many of the situations (but I think it would be a hard sell in a court of law...)

And, I am perfectly fine with the options to engage in all types of relationships.  My argument is it should be more focused so the stories could be fleshed out more.

By focused do you mean - one char specifically gay, one bi, one het?

I can see your point here also -  but then again we get back to lack of options when you do this,,,,

[Torhagen]

This Again ?

[Any0day]

Seena wrote...

And, I am perfectly fine with the options to engage in all types of relationships.  My argument is it should be more focused so the stories could be fleshed out more.

By focused do you mean - one char specifically gay, one bi, one het?

I can see your point here also -  but then again we get back to lack of options when you do this,,,,

I think what a lot of people are forgetting is that this is a ROLE playing game.
When you make the gameplay or roleplaying options synonymous for every single type of group you could possibly imagine - you lose individuality. You also lose replayability when you do this too.
Back in Baldur's Gate 2, I rolled a remale just to see Anomen's love dialogue. It doesn't make me someone who has a feministic side secretly longing for male companionship; I was curios (and stopped being after like 5 love talks because of how emo he was).

Having characters prefer certain sexual preferences in a romance seems as normal to me as avaline choosing to be a warrior. I mean to me, you could also say that you'd rather choose all the characters classes for them; but in doing so you would lose any flavor that those predetermined choices have impacted on the story.

Modifié par Any0day, 24 avril 2011 - 10:02 .

[Seena]

Any0day wrote...


I think what a lot of people are forgetting is that this is a ROLE playing game.
When you make the gameplay or roleplaying options synonymous for every single type of group you could possibly imagine - you lose individuality. You also lose replayability when you do this too.
Back in Baldur's Gate 2, I rolled a remale just to see Anomen's love dialogue. It doesn't make me someone who has a feministic side secretly longing for male companionship; I was curios (and stopped being after like 5 love talks because of how emo he was).

Having characters prefer certain sexual preferences in a romance seems as normal to me as avaline choosing to be a warrior. I mean to me, you could also say that you'd rather choose all the characters classes for them; but in doing so you would lose any flavor that those predetermined choices have impacted on the story.

Sorry - but using your argument - we shouldn't have a choice between warrior, rogue, mage etc.

And while chosing one of the above, completely negates your choice of being another (meaning if you chose warrior, you can't be a rogue),  in terms of sexual orientation - this isn't the case.   By making people with the *potential* to be any sexual orientation - it doesn't limit anyone's choice.  You simply pick the orientation you are most comfprtable with.

Modifié par Seena, 24 avril 2011 - 10:07 .

[Any0day]

Seena wrote...

Having characters prefer certain sexual preferences in a romance seems as normal to me as avaline choosing to be a warrior. I mean to me, you could also say that you'd rather choose all the characters classes for them; but in doing so you would lose any flavor that those predetermined choices have impacted on the story.

Sorry - but using your argument - we shouldn't have a choice between warrior, rogue, mage etc.

And while chosing one of the above, completely negates your choice of being another (meaning if you chose warrior, you can't be a rogue),  in terms of sexual orientation - this isn't the case.   By making people with the *potential* to be any sexual orientation - it doesn't limit anyone's choice.  You simply pick the orientation you are most comfprtable with.

Sorry perhaps I was unclear or we are simply miscommunicating.

I never said what -you- are, only what certain characters are in a game.

For example: Let's just say for a moment that Anders is gay, arguing that he should be straight is like arguing that he should be a warrior. It's silly to me. He is what he is. Making everyone bisexual is like making everyone a mage/warrior. Or it's more like making everyone undecided until you choose for them what to be. I'd much prefer to have a detailed story about Anders being an oppressed mage than some nondescript story.

It's a pretty rough concept and it doesn't quite fit, I agree - I'm just trying to make my point easier to understand.

Modifié par Any0day, 24 avril 2011 - 10:15 .

[Elhanan]

FWIW - This appears to be among one of the better phrased Thread titles contextually....

Modifié par Elhanan, 24 avril 2011 - 10:29 .

[PSUHammer]

Seena wrote...

Hammer6767 wrote...

Actually, what I am referring to is that the people in these worlds (NPCs and PCs) enhabit those traits.  Whether or not you choose to be a murderer is up to you, but generally the game world treats murderers like we do in real life. 

Hmm.... Hawke gets away with murder throughout the game, without any repercussions what -so-ever....

Although I suppose one could argue "self-defense" in many of the situations (but I think it would be a hard sell in a court of law...)

And, I am perfectly fine with the options to engage in all types of relationships.  My argument is it should be more focused so the stories could be fleshed out more.

By focused do you mean - one char specifically gay, one bi, one het?

I can see your point here also -  but then again we get back to lack of options when you do this,,,,

By focused, I mean, give us some really deep and strongly developed LI storylines instead of trying to "spread the wealth" which dilutes the resources they can devote to any one story thread.  The writers have pointed out numerous times in these forums that they have a finite amount of lines of dialog and resources to devote to romances and NPC interaction.  IMO, I would rather they give us a couple real strong LI instead of making everyone an option for both sexes.

But, that's just my opinion.  They are going to do whatever sells them the most games, in the end! 

Modifié par Hammer6767, 24 avril 2011 - 11:10 .

[Seena]

Any0day wrote...

Sorry perhaps I was unclear or we are simply miscommunicating.

I never said what -you- are, only what certain characters are in a game.

For example: Let's just say for a moment that Anders is gay, arguing that he should be straight is like arguing that he should be a warrior. It's silly to me. He is what he is. Making everyone bisexual is like making everyone a mage/warrior. Or it's more like making everyone undecided until you choose for them what to be. I'd much prefer to have a detailed story about Anders being an oppressed mage than some nondescript story.

It's a pretty rough concept and it doesn't quite fit, I agree - I'm just trying to make my point easier to understand.

 I sort of get what you're saying.  I'm not however certain how Ander's sexual orientation fits into his detailed story about being an opressed mage -- the two are mutually exclusive and have nothing to do with one another....

A person's sexual orientation doesn't affect anything but who they are potentially sexually attracted to --- everything else is independent of that.

So again, making someone's sexual orientation predicated on the PC's sexual preference - really has no other significance other than who that char will become romantically (or physically) involved with,.,....

Modifié par Seena, 24 avril 2011 - 11:16 .