255 réponses à ce sujet

[Seena]

Hammer6767 wrote...


By focused, I mean, give us some really deep and strongly developed LI storylines instead of trying to "spread the wealth" which dilutes the resources they can devote to any one story thread.  The writers have pointed out numerous times in these forums that they have a finite amount of lines of dialog and resources to devote to romances and NPC interaction.  IMO, I would rather they give us a couple real strong LI instead of making everyone an option for both sexes.

But, that's just my opinion.  They are going to do whatever sells them the most games, in the end! 

Actually of ALL the arguments against making every char bisexual - yours makes the most sense to me 

[Fishy]

Well bioware  need to create a standard . Because not only you will be playing this game .So i guess it's easier to create what someone expect to be attractive  for both gender.I understand this .

BUT

 It's when they shove it in your face (Miranda Ass) . It's downgraded her personality and i can't take her seriously anymore after that.They shove it in ours face enough(The media) of what we should ideolize/worship i don't want it in my face when i play game.

[Naliamegod]

 A major problem when dealing with sexism in the media is that people don't seem to comprehend that sexism effects how men are portrayed.  The main reason why "Rape is funny when it is with a male," is because the stereotypical male hero is often some sort of sexual dynamo (unless he is a geek.. then it is funny) so any deviation is clearly hilarious since no man would oppose sex, right?  

And people need to stop blaming feminism/woman's groups for this; it's a society wide problem.  Traditional gender roles not only damaged women, but any man who does not follow what they are suppose to do.

[Seena]

Naliamegod wrote...

 A major problem when dealing with sexism in the media is that people don't seem to comprehend that sexism effects how men are portrayed.  The main reason why "Rape is funny when it is with a male," is because the stereotypical male hero is often some sort of sexual dynamo (unless he is a geek.. then it is funny) so any deviation is clearly hilarious since no man would oppose sex, right?  

And people need to stop blaming feminism/woman's groups for this; it's a society wide problem.  Traditional gender roles not only damaged women, but any man who does not follow what they are suppose to do.

Most (mainstream) feminists argue against traditional gender assigned roles- period.

Personally, (and I consider myself a feminist) - I don't find male rape funny, or any less reprehensible than female rape.

The only difference being - most men don't live from day to day, with the fear of being raped.

Many women do.....

[Naliamegod]

Maderas_ wrote...

This is nothing new. Feminists complain constantly about the sexual objectification of women but very rarely say anything about the objectification of men, even though television and magazines are jam packed with images of shirtless men sporting bulging pecs and rippling abs.

Men aren't being sexually objectified like women are in the media.  Most of those images are actually made for the male audience as an image of what a "man" should be (Men's Magazine is not advertising for women last time I checked).   "Bulging pecs and rippling abs" is not a big a turn-on for most women, and you'll see there is generally a big disparency between the perfect "male" in male-targeted media and female-targeted media.

That is not to say such potrayals are ok of course, but it isn't true that it it same the same as sexual objectification. It's more comparable to having all females being graceful princesses or intelligent bookworms. 

[Seena]

Naliamegod wrote...



Men aren't being sexually objectified like women are in the media.  Most of those images are actually made for the male audience as an image of what a "man" should be (Men's Magazine is not advertising for women last time I checked).   "Bulging pecs and rippling abs" is not a big a turn-on for most women, and you'll see there is generally a big disparency between the perfect "male" in male-targeted media and female-targeted media.

That is not to say such potrayals are ok of course, but it isn't true that it it same the same as sexual objectification. It's more comparable to having all females being graceful princesses or intelligent bookworms. 

This isn't unique to men....   women's fashion mags use models who are boderline anorexic - and (at least the men I know) prefer women with meat on their bones.

It's funny how the media tries to tell us how we should look -  but the reality is, both men and women seem to prefer more realistic body shapes.....

Modifié par Seena, 25 avril 2011 - 12:23 .

[Any0day]

Seena wrote...

Hammer6767 wrote...


By focused, I mean, give us some really deep and strongly developed LI storylines instead of trying to "spread the wealth" which dilutes the resources they can devote to any one story thread.  The writers have pointed out numerous times in these forums that they have a finite amount of lines of dialog and resources to devote to romances and NPC interaction.  IMO, I would rather they give us a couple real strong LI instead of making everyone an option for both sexes.

But, that's just my opinion.  They are going to do whatever sells them the most games, in the end! 

Actually of ALL the arguments against making every char bisexual - yours makes the most sense to me 

This is actually what I've been trying to say the entire time -- heh.

[Carfax]

Seena wrote...

This isn't unique to men....   women's fashion mags use models who are boderline anorexic - and (at least the men I know) prefer women with meat on their bones.

Yes it's true that the majority of men prefer curvy women to the skinny waifs you see strutting catwalks; multiple studies have proven this.

And yet, most women believe that skinny is what men want..  The question is why?

My theory is, that it's because the fashion industry is dominated by gay men whom unwittingly impress their ideals of what is attractive on to the fashion industry, and thus on to the rest of Society..

If you ever look at fashion models, you'll notice that they have many similarities..  Long legs, very thin, defined jaw lines and other cranial features, big feet, small breasts etc...  In other words, they look much like adolescent boys, rather than grown women.

The fashion designers (many of which are gay men) hire these models because they find their body types more attractive (since it mostly resembles adolescent boys) than the classic female physique with lush curves, full breasts etc which is desired by most heterosexual men.

Despite gays comprising a small percentage of the population (on the order of 4%), the amount of top name fashion designers that are gay is staggering.

Versace (deceased), Perry Ellis (deceased), Dolce & Gabbana, Tom Ford, Jean Paul Gaultier, Karl Lagerfeld, Giorgio Armani...all of them are gay as can be!

And yet these gay men are literally dictating to the World their aesthetic ideals, which I assure you does not value the voluptuous Goddess like physiques that so inspired artists throughout the centuries.

[Seena]

Carfax wrote...


And yet, most women believe that skinny is what men want..  The question is why?

My theory is, that it's because the fashion industry is dominated by gay men whom unwittingly impress their ideals of what is attractive on to the fashion industry, and thus on to the rest of Society..

If you ever look at fashion models, you'll notice that they have many similarities..  Long legs, very thin, defined jaw lines and other cranial features, big feet, small breasts etc...  In other words, they look much like adolescent boys, rather than grown women.

The fashion designers (many of which are gay men) hire these models because they find their body types more attractive (since it mostly resembles adolescent boys) than the classic female physique with lush curves, full breasts etc which is desired by most heterosexual men.

Despite gays comprising a small percentage of the population (on the order of 4%), the amount of top name fashion designers that are gay is staggering.

Versace (deceased), Perry Ellis (deceased), Dolce & Gabbana, Tom Ford, Jean Paul Gaultier, Karl Lagerfeld, Giorgio Armani...all of them are gay as can be!

And yet these gay men are literally dictating to the World their aesthetic ideals, which I assure you does not value the voluptuous Goddess like physiques that so inspired artists throughout the centuries.

Um....  I don't agree with you at all.  There are just as many straight designers as gay.

I think it has to do with how clothes "hang" - and it's thought that they "hang" better on thin frames.

You make it sound like gay men are trying to manipulate what is attractive in society --- I simply don't think that's the case.

[orbit991]

Fine, their next companion should be a small breasted career woman with a collection of bollocks pinned to her cork board.

[orbit991]

Carfax wrote...

Seena wrote...

This isn't unique to men....   women's fashion mags use models who are boderline anorexic - and (at least the men I know) prefer women with meat on their bones.

Yes it's true that the majority of men prefer curvy women to the skinny waifs you see strutting catwalks; multiple studies have proven this.

And yet, most women believe that skinny is what men want..  The question is why?

My theory is, that it's because the fashion industry is dominated by gay men whom unwittingly impress their ideals of what is attractive on to the fashion industry, and thus on to the rest of Society..

If you ever look at fashion models, you'll notice that they have many similarities..  Long legs, very thin, defined jaw lines and other cranial features, big feet, small breasts etc...  In other words, they look much like adolescent boys, rather than grown women.

The fashion designers (many of which are gay men) hire these models because they find their body types more attractive (since it mostly resembles adolescent boys) than the classic female physique with lush curves, full breasts etc which is desired by most heterosexual men.

Despite gays comprising a small percentage of the population (on the order of 4%), the amount of top name fashion designers that are gay is staggering.

Versace (deceased), Perry Ellis (deceased), Dolce & Gabbana, Tom Ford, Jean Paul Gaultier, Karl Lagerfeld, Giorgio Armani...all of them are gay as can be!

And yet these gay men are literally dictating to the World their aesthetic ideals, which I assure you does not value the voluptuous Goddess like physiques that so inspired artists throughout the centuries.

Agree with the begining but the small boy theory is silly and contrived. They use such a shape because that body is like a coat hanger it does not get in the way of their design, thats it.

[Seena]

orbit991 wrote...

Fine, their next companion should be a small breasted career woman with a collection of bollocks pinned to her cork board.

That was brilliant. Really seriously brilliant.

[whykikyouwhy]

Carfax wrote...

Seena wrote...

This isn't unique to men....   women's fashion mags use models who are boderline anorexic - and (at least the men I know) prefer women with meat on their bones.

Yes it's true that the majority of men prefer curvy women to the skinny waifs you see strutting catwalks; multiple studies have proven this.

And yet, most women believe that skinny is what men want..  The question is why?

My theory is, that it's because the fashion industry is dominated by gay men whom unwittingly impress their ideals of what is attractive on to the fashion industry, and thus on to the rest of Society..

If you ever look at fashion models, you'll notice that they have many similarities..  Long legs, very thin, defined jaw lines and other cranial features, big feet, small breasts etc...  In other words, they look much like adolescent boys, rather than grown women.

The fashion designers (many of which are gay men) hire these models because they find their body types more attractive (since it mostly resembles adolescent boys) than the classic female physique with lush curves, full breasts etc which is desired by most heterosexual men.

Despite gays comprising a small percentage of the population (on the order of 4%), the amount of top name fashion designers that are gay is staggering.

Versace (deceased), Perry Ellis (deceased), Dolce & Gabbana, Tom Ford, Jean Paul Gaultier, Karl Lagerfeld, Giorgio Armani...all of them are gay as can be!

And yet these gay men are literally dictating to the World their aesthetic ideals, which I assure you does not value the voluptuous Goddess like physiques that so inspired artists throughout the centuries.

I feel the need to jump back into the fray and say something here regarding the comments above. While I can see that you are trying to make a point regarding the fashion industry dictating the social norms for women (which has gone on for decades, and to promote numerous body types over the years),  I can't abide by the blatant implication that gay men find adolescent boys as their attractive ideal. That just hearkens to the stereotype of the predatory gay man, or to the misconception that pedophilia is something inherent in gay men. The two are indeed mutually exclusive.

I think it would be more correct to say that media, sales and marketing, no matter who may be hired to conduct it, is what contributes in many ways to the perpetuating of a specific female image. And because we are bombarded by the media in our current times, we are constantly absorbing these images subconsiously. And that is part of the struggle.

[Carfax]

Seena wrote...

Um....  I don't agree with you at all.  There are just as many straight designers as gay.

Yeah, but most of the big name designers are gay.  Look at the names I listed and tell me otherwise..

I think it has to do with how clothes "hang" - and it's thought that they "hang" better on thin frames.

Thats not true.  If a dress is made to fit a curvy woman, it will look even better on her than it will on the skinny catwalk model.. 

The cut and design of the clothing are the most important factors..

You make it sound like gay men are trying to manipulate what is attractive in society --- I simply don't think that's the case.

I never said they are intentionally manipulating aesthetic ideals.  I said they are unwittingly doing so, because they probably don't know how much influence they wield over Society's ideals of attractiveness.

You see the same thing with male fashion models to a certain extent.  Gone are the days when male models like Tyson Beckford etc had very masculine physiques with broad shoulders, narrow waists and a lot of muscular definition.

Now a days, male models are also very skinny and look more androgynous than masculine.

[Seena]

Any0day wrote...

This is actually what I've been trying to say the entire time -- heh.

I have those days myself....    

[Carfax]

wth

Modifié par Carfax, 25 avril 2011 - 01:26 .

[Carfax]

multiple posts

Modifié par Carfax, 25 avril 2011 - 01:26 .

[Carfax]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

I feel the need to jump back into the fray and say something here regarding the comments above. While I can see that you are trying to make a point regarding the fashion industry dictating the social norms for women (which has gone on for decades, and to promote numerous body types over the years),  I can't abide by the blatant implication that gay men find adolescent boys as their attractive ideal. That just hearkens to the stereotype of the predatory gay man, or to the misconception that pedophilia is something inherent in gay men. The two are indeed mutually exclusive.

Homosexuality and pederasty have a very long history..  Anyone thats ever read anything about the Ancient Greeks and other Civilizations wouldn't be surprised by my comments.

And there are organizations like NAMBLA (which stands for North American Man Boy Love Association) that also beg to differ.

I think it would be more correct to say that media, sales and marketing, no matter who may be hired to conduct it, is what contributes in many ways to the perpetuating of a specific female image. And because we are bombarded by the media in our current times, we are constantly absorbing these images subconsiously. And that is part of the struggle.

Then why would they broadcast one specific female image more than any other, especially when that particular female image is not even the one thats most desired by men?

[Seena]

Carfax wrote...



Yeah, but most of the big name designers are gay.  Look at the names I listed and tell me otherwise..
 

Ralph Lauren. Emilio Ungaro. Calvin Klein. Oscar de la Renta,  Tommy Hilfinger, Bill Blass, Roberto Cavalli


And we'll just ignore the female designers, shall we?  

You see the same thing with male fashion models to a certain extent.  Gone are the days when male models like Tyson Beckford etc had very masculine physiques with broad shoulders, narrow waists and a lot of muscular definition.

Now a days, male models are also very skinny and look more androgynous than masculine.

Sorry - I just don't see that.

Modifié par Seena, 25 avril 2011 - 01:35 .

[Seena]

Carfax wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...

I feel the need to jump back into the fray and say something here regarding the comments above. While I can see that you are trying to make a point regarding the fashion industry dictating the social norms for women (which has gone on for decades, and to promote numerous body types over the years),  I can't abide by the blatant implication that gay men find adolescent boys as their attractive ideal. That just hearkens to the stereotype of the predatory gay man, or to the misconception that pedophilia is something inherent in gay men. The two are indeed mutually exclusive.

Homosexuality and pederasty have a very long history..  Anyone thats ever read anything about the Ancient Greeks and other Civilizations wouldn't be surprised by my comments.

And there are organizations like NAMBLA (which stands for North American Man Boy Love Association) that also beg to differ.

I think it would be more correct to say that media, sales and marketing, no matter who may be hired to conduct it, is what contributes in many ways to the perpetuating of a specific female image. And because we are bombarded by the media in our current times, we are constantly absorbing these images subconsiously. And that is part of the struggle.

Then why would they broadcast one specific female image more than any other, especially when that particular female image is not even the one thats most desired by men?

Um the majority of pedophiles identify themselves as heterosexual.....

[Any0day]

Carfax wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...

I feel the need to jump back into the fray and say something here regarding the comments above. While I can see that you are trying to make a point regarding the fashion industry dictating the social norms for women (which has gone on for decades, and to promote numerous body types over the years),  I can't abide by the blatant implication that gay men find adolescent boys as their attractive ideal. That just hearkens to the stereotype of the predatory gay man, or to the misconception that pedophilia is something inherent in gay men. The two are indeed mutually exclusive.

Homosexuality and pederasty have a very long history..  Anyone thats ever read anything about the Ancient Greeks and other Civilizations wouldn't be surprised by my comments.

And there are organizations like NAMBLA (which stands for North American Man Boy Love Association) that also beg to differ.

I think it would be more correct to say that media, sales and marketing, no matter who may be hired to conduct it, is what contributes in many ways to the perpetuating of a specific female image. And because we are bombarded by the media in our current times, we are constantly absorbing these images subconsiously. And that is part of the struggle.

Then why would they broadcast one specific female image more than any other, especially when that particular female image is not even the one thats most desired by men?

Let's take a few steps back, preferably before the outlash against gay men.
Honestly, gay men just happen to be more into fashion than straight men. Perhaps that means there's something wrong with fashion itself and not so much the people steering it.

I kind of find your arguments humorous. You see, fashion has sort of taken the turn of homogeneousness --- trying to appeal to the broadest crowd possible - unfortunately when you try to please everyone, you get more of an audience with everyone liking it a bit less. I'm pretty sure they successfully accomplish that goal at the end of the day.

[Setsunayaki]

Sexism annoys me simply because of how males are blinded to a lot of double-standards in the area. Interesting enough females can not condone the behaviors of males, but males end up always have to condone the behavior of women.

Pardon the next line as its inappropriate for a forum like this, but lets make a mention to the porn industry. Sure, there are some males on top who handle things, but what about the females who say "I do?" and have themselves filmed and sold...all so they can "make money to feed their kids" or choose to have some "fun?"

Then you have to deal with feminist groups out there attacking males for dealing with pornography, but never do you see a feminist group attempting to deal with the porn their own gender sees or possesses, nor do you ever see a feminist group take credit for things the gender has fault in...

Going back to Bioware and going into the realm of real life....

Breasts are Breasts..Nothing more, Nothing less..What pisses me off about size is simply the entire idea that females who are insecure about "looks" are the ones who label and target full-figure women.

I don't see any mention in-game where a girl with large breasts have higher treatment than one with smaller breasts...Nor do I see any real discrimination since its a GAME with a WRITTEN PLOT upon it and I don't see these games becoming pornographic material for public consumption.

I love how people talk about "breasts" claiming that its all one should speak about women and leave everything else out..

...As if this whole thread isn't sexist enough towards the denial of women beyond the scope of their breasts and body type.

[Seena]

Setsunayaki wrote...
Then you have to deal with feminist groups out there attacking males for dealing with pornography, but never do you see a feminist group attempting to deal with the porn their own gender sees or possesses, nor do you ever see a feminist group take credit for things the gender has fault in...

 

Never is always a bad word to use.

Some feminists are quite critical of  female porn stars, and women enjoying porn, in general.

Others aren't so critical of the porn industry....   it's really kind of random.

[PSUHammer]

Seena wrote...

Never is always a bad word to use.

Some feminists are quite critical of  female porn stars, and women enjoying porn, in general.

Others aren't so critical of the porn industry....   it's really kind of random.

On a side note...that is an incredible PC you have in your sig!  How much did something like that set you back to build?

[Seena]

Hammer6767 wrote...


On a side note...that is an incredible PC you have in your sig!  How much did something like that set you back to build?

Erm.....  to be exact 4747.83   : )