135 réponses à ce sujet

[Sen4lifE]

Do you ever notice the little trend BioWare has of putting women in powerful positions?  I'm not complaining, I just noticed the pattern.

It is pecular because in traditional human thinking we normally see men as rights of power (I'm not saying I support that nor is this thread to argue that - but it is mentioned by a BioWare writer and it's a rather true fact).

But, what I mean is, look in Mass Effect, the Asari are the most powerful force in the galaxy and the first of that era to discover the citadel - they are all females.  In Dragon Age, the Chantry high powers are always female, the Divine, the Grand Clerics, and the Chantry is held as the highest power of authority.  The Seeker is a female also.

I'm not trying to be sexist so sorry if I offend, but it is a little past mere coincidence if you consider it.  It just tends to be a pattern.  I do not personally know if it's a way to please feminist or a way to show support, or if it is mere coincidence.  It kind of makes me asks the question since BioWare are obvious supporters of freedom of sexual orientation, so it just makes me wonder if it's another thing slipped in or if it's a pattern not really meant to be a pattern.

Anyhow, feel free to discuss - or flame.. we always know that's going to happen.

Edit:

@John Epler

Sorry about the last thread, I accidently clicked enter instead of tab.

Modifié par Sen4lifE, 23 avril 2011 - 06:20 .

[Haristo]

(sorry for the first comment... thought you were another troll).

Very interresting actually... it is kind of true and this is for my good pleasure that womens do have an important role in the BioWare games. Miranda is a great example : She ''ressurected'' Shepard. Tali is actually the bond that allows you to expose Saren... and as said for Dragon Age there is the Chantry mostly ruled by womens, like Meredith.

maybe it is a coincidence, maybe BioWare is feminist... don't care, enjoy the games...

[Uzaik]

And then there's the Arishok, the Illusive Man, King Cailan, the viscount, all of the Banns and Teyrns and Arls, not to mention canon Shepard is a male. I guess it's your perception.

[John Epler]

No apologies necessary! I've done much the same thing myself on many, many previous occasions.

[LyndseyCousland]

I've noticed that as well, but wondered whether it was just my imagination.
Girl powah, rah!

[Sen4lifE]

Haristo wrote...

(sorry for the first comment... thought you were another troll).

Very interresting actually... it is kind of true and this is for my good pleasure that womens do have an important role in the BioWare games. Miranda is a great example : She ''ressurected'' Shepard. Tali is actually the bond that allows you to expose Saren... and as said for Dragon Age there is the Chantry mostly ruled by womens, like Meredith.

maybe it is a coincidence, maybe BioWare is feminist... don't care, enjoy the games...

I do enjoy there open-mindedness.  It allows their writers to create worlds that actually have an alien feel to them in comparison to many fantasy enviroments where the fantasy culture reflects too much of our own.  Like with Mass Effect, it does make plenty of sense why the Asari would be so much advanced, women or not.  Or why women seem to be dominant in the chantry is probably by the fact that Andraste was a woman and the first Divine was, and just keeping up traditionalism with the Divine.

I like how they intergrate it; though, any writer doesn't want to go too overboard or the anti-feminist will start yelling at them - you really just can't win with creativity anymore.

Though on the point of going overboard, I would be inclined to ask why every single leader is a woman and speaking on the point of open-mindedness to sexual orientation why every single person was bisexual (which this has been displayed for many years in writing, I can't remember the title just now, but it was a Sci-Fi book where in the future, it was common to be bisexual as people were very open with sexuality) just as much as I'd be inclined to ask why every leader was a man and everyone was straight.  However, BioWare does tend to keep a really steady balance - it's a rather nice touch in my opinion.

Uzaik wrote...

And then there's the Arishok, the Illusive
Man, King Cailan, the viscount, all of the Banns and Teyrns and Arls,
not to mention canon Shepard is a male. I guess it's your
perception.

It's not canon as it is default.  Even in
other media than just the games they avoid defining a "canon" version of
Shepard as to allow the fantasy to be fully immersive.  It
was kind of silly putting Hawke on the cover, but it's just a
representation of BioWare's view of Hawke, not everyone.  Shepard could
have been a female just as much as he could be a male - there is no
definition to it, but BioWare needs someone to draw.

Also, the Chantry is above law, as they state in Dragon Age: Awakening
if you choose to take Anders that the king has no say in Chantry
affairs.  King Cailan can be replaced by a queen, so that doesn't work
very well there either.

In situations where it is the players choice, it's not fair to say "Well because I picked a male, that offsets the balance," because it could have been a female just the same.

What I am implying, is the much larger scope.  For example, the entire female race who is responsible for the entire civilization of the galaxy.  The Illusive man would have never came to power the way he did without the Asari having done what they did milleniums ago.

Modifié par Sen4lifE, 23 avril 2011 - 06:32 .

[mmu1]

Bioware tends to be rather politically correct, so it's not especially surprising... Personally, I think they try too hard, especially when you compare the "grim and gritty" Thedas to something like The Game of Thrones, where you have strong female characters playing key roles without seeming like they were placed there in a clumsy attempt to subvert fantasy tropes.

(not that I'm a huge fan of Game of Thrones, really, or any of the other snuff fantasy it inspired, but at least the world it takes place in feels real, unlike Bioware's recent efforts...)

[Merci357]

It's fantasy, I guess, and as such it can acknowledge our modern times, where women in positions of power are everything but uncommon. That might be a very rare case in historical medieval times, but at least BioWares fantasy games don't reflect anything historical.
Regarding their Sci-Fi games, there it feels natural, since I can only guess gender equality doesn't go anywhere while we move on from here.

So, in short, I don't think it's feminism at all, as long as they keep their balance - like they did so far, and don't go overboard. Equality swings both ways...

[Dante Angelo]

Uzaik wrote...

And then there's the Arishok, the Illusive Man, King Cailan, the viscount, all of the Banns and Teyrns and Arls, not to mention canon Shepard is a male. I guess it's your perception.

The Viscount and King Cailen were incompetent & there is no canon Shepard. Sheploo is merely the poster boy

[Sen4lifE]

Merci357 wrote...

It's fantasy, I guess, and as such it can acknowledge our modern times, where women in positions of power are everything but uncommon. That might be a very rare case in historical medieval times, but at least BioWares fantasy games don't reflect anything historical.
Regarding their Sci-Fi games, there it feels natural, since I can only guess gender equality doesn't go anywhere while we move on from here.

So, in short, I don't think it's feminism at all, as long as they keep their balance - like they did so far, and don't go overboard. Equality swings both ways...

That was a bit of my point.  They have managed, in my opinion, to not go completely out of control with it.  If you made every single person in power a female and everyone bisexual/gay, it'd really be the same as making them all male and straight.  I have to disagree with the post above that it's miraculous, like I said with the Chantry, Andraste attracted the notice of the Maker and became a very powerful female warrior, it might have been inspiration for a woman becoming the first Divine or that might have been coincidence but since then, usually when you replace someone of high power, unless you really dislike them, it's just traditionalism to keep some characteristics the same - like gender.

But, sometimes it does feel like it's leaning too far one way or the other, yet they use another aspect to balance it.  LIke two extremes make a neutral.  It's a nice touch, really gives some interesting look at the worlds they create.

Edit

Oh and to further my point in the last reply, the viscount may have been a male, but he was controlled by Knight-Commander Meredith, a female.

Modifié par Sen4lifE, 23 avril 2011 - 06:46 .

[Seena]

It would be so helpful if people arguing about feminism actually knew what "feminism" was.

[Sen4lifE]

Seena wrote...

It would be so helpful if people arguing about feminism actually knew what "feminism" was.

Feminism is a collection of movements aimed at defining, establishing and defending equal political, economic, and social rights and equal opportunities for women.

I think it's far to say we do.

[Seena]

Sen4lifE wrote...

[That was a bit of my point.  They have managed, in my opinion, to not go completely out of control with it.  If you made every single person in power a female and everyone bisexual/gay, it'd really be the same as making them all male and straight.  I have to disagree with the post above that it's miraculous, like I said with the Chantry, Andraste attracted the notice of the Maker and became a very powerful female warrior, it might have been inspiration for a woman becoming the first Divine or that might have been coincidence but since then, usually when you replace someone of high power, unless you really dislike them, it's just traditionalism to keep some characteristics the same - like gender.

But, sometimes it does feel like it's leaning too far one way or the other, yet they use another aspect to balance it.  LIke two extremes make a neutral.  It's a nice touch, really gives some interesting look at the worlds they create.

Your delicate male ego feeling threatened is it?

Did it ever occur to you that female's leadership roles have been minimized because most historians and anthropologists are Western males?

I'm sure - that it hasn't.

Modifié par Seena, 23 avril 2011 - 06:49 .

[Seena]

Sen4lifE wrote...

Seena wrote...

It would be so helpful if people arguing about feminism actually knew what "feminism" was.

Feminism is a collection of movements aimed at defining, establishing and defending equal political, economic, and social rights and equal opportunities for women.

I think it's far to say we do.

From the tone of your OP and of others - I'd say that you really don't.

[AkiKishi]

mmu1 wrote...

Bioware tends to be rather politically correct, so it's not especially surprising... Personally, I think they try too hard, especially when you compare the "grim and gritty" Thedas to something like The Game of Thrones, where you have strong female characters playing key roles without seeming like they were placed there in a clumsy attempt to subvert fantasy tropes.

(not that I'm a huge fan of Game of Thrones, really, or any of the other snuff fantasy it inspired, but at least the world it takes place in feels real, unlike Bioware's recent efforts...)

It does come across as a created thing rather than organic. Blood and Sand or Gods of the Arena would be another one, although historical in some respects.

Technology and magic are great equalisers though.

[Sen4lifE]

Seena wrote...

Sen4lifE wrote...

Seena wrote...

It would be so helpful if people arguing about feminism actually knew what "feminism" was.

Feminism is a collection of movements aimed at defining, establishing and defending equal political, economic, and social rights and equal opportunities for women.

I think it's far to say we do.

From the tone of your OP and of others - I'd say that you really don't.

Not tone, assumption.  It is text, there was no tone specified.  If you intpererate it incorrectly, that's not my problem.

And so the flaming and jumping to conclusions begins...


Regarding your last post, you do realize sexism is bidirectional?  If you'd like to slam points as insults, then let's.  You reacted the way you did because you assume I am a male, if a female pointed this out, would you have?  No, I assume not.  That in itself is sexism.  So before you try to make yourself look like an ass, think.

I clearly said it wasn't a complaint, it was a speculation.  Release some of that hidden anger, maybe you'd be able to socialize a little better.  Do you know what philosophy is about?  It's about speculation.  I said I liked the open-mindedness.  So that evidently itself shows that you are either trolling or simply want me to be insulting feminist.

Also, evidently I do know what feminism is.  We are discussing women in high political power, how does that not have anything to do with feminism?

Clearly, you need to reread the post, or just not post, because you evidently have nothing to put forth to this thread except for meaningless arguing, and it's sickening, can we for once have a discussion on this forum without someone trying to ruin it for everyone?

I merely asked for speculation - I did not insult nor ask to be insulted.

Too long; didn't read?: Grow up.

[Maria Caliban]

Sen4lifE wrote...

I do not personally know if it's a way to please feminist or a way to show support, or if it is mere coincidence.  It kind of makes me asks the question since BioWare are obvious supporters of freedom of sexual orientation, so it just makes me wonder if it's another thing slipped in or if it's a pattern not really meant to be a pattern.

I believe Dragon Age: Origins was the first BioWare game to have women writers. I think that's why you'll see more women in positions of power and authority than in previous titles.

As a company, I think BioWare tends to be more progressive when it comes to minority than other developers. It might be because they're Canadian while many popular developers are in the USA.

[Seena]

Sen4lifE wrote...




Not tone, assumption.  It is text, there was no tone specified.  If you intpererate it incorrectly, that's not my problem.

And so the flaming and jumping to conclusions begins...


Regarding your last post, you do realize sexism is bidirectional?  If you'd like to slam points as insults, then let's.  You reacted the way you did because you assume I am a male, if a female pointed this out, would you have?  No, I assume not.  That in itself is sexism.  So before you try to make yourself look like an ass, think.

I clearly said it wasn't a complaint, it was a speculation.  Release some of that hidden anger, maybe you'd be able to socialize a little better.  Do you know what philosophy is about?  It's about speculation.  I said I liked the open-mindedness.  So that evidently itself shows that you are either trolling or simply want me to be insulting feminist.

Also, evidently I do know what feminism is.  We are discussing women in high political power, how does that not have anything to do with feminism?

Clearly, you need to reread the post, or just not post, because you evidently have nothing to put forth to this thread except for meaningless arguing, and it's sickening, can we for once have a discussion on this forum without someone trying to ruin it for everyone?

I merely asked for speculation - I did not insult nor ask to be insulted.

Too long; didn't read?: Grow up.

Text most certainly does set a "tone". 

And from the "tone" of your post, yes, I do assume that you are male.  Are you saying that you are not?

As for placing women in "political power" - women have been in "political power" for ages.  Far far far before the origins of the feminist movement.

As for "gowing up" - you purposely established a thread that you knew would draw controversey.  In doing so I'd say - if you can't handle the repercussions, don't go there in the first place.

[Sen4lifE]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Sen4lifE wrote...

I do not personally know if it's a way to please feminist or a way to show support, or if it is mere coincidence.  It kind of makes me asks the question since BioWare are obvious supporters of freedom of sexual orientation, so it just makes me wonder if it's another thing slipped in or if it's a pattern not really meant to be a pattern.

I believe Dragon Age: Origins was the first BioWare game to have women writers. I think that's why you'll see more women in positions of power and authority than in previous titles.

As a company, I think BioWare tends to be more progressive when it comes to minority than other developers. It might be because they're Canadian while many popular developers are in the USA.

Haha - oh thanks, it's the Americans' fault.  But, I can not deny there is some truth in this.  While Canada is inspired by Western culture, they are also inspired by European culture and of late Europe tends to be much more open minded then Western culture, though we've made strides, too.

I don't believe it's entirely the location as BioWare is partly in the US also.  I believe it's more of coincidence - coincidence that at least the majority of writers are open minded instead of closed.  There is always someone open minded somewhere, but if too many people don't care for it, it won't show.

And the part of women writing makes sense.  It's almost an innate sense to reflect your own gender and characteristics into your writing - male or female.  Because when you do create fantasies, it's from your internal thoughts, desires and views.  While you can try to make scenarios open for all, some things are still going to be left in there that are personal to the writer.

Though, I don't care who's writing it, as long as it's good.  And just to put this in here, off-topic, whoever wrote Anders wasn't good this time around.  They weren't horrible, I've seen much much worse, they just seemed inexperienced.  Things were too much monodirectional in his dialogue and just all things revolving around him.

Seena wrote...

Sen4lifE wrote...




Not tone, assumption.  It is text, there was no tone specified.  If you intpererate it incorrectly, that's not my problem.

And so the flaming and jumping to conclusions begins...


Regarding
your last post, you do realize sexism is bidirectional?  If you'd like
to slam points as insults, then let's.  You reacted the way you did
because you assume I am a male, if a female pointed this out, would you
have?  No, I assume not.  That in itself is sexism.  So before you try
to make yourself look like an ass, think.

I clearly said it
wasn't a complaint, it was a speculation.  Release some of that hidden
anger, maybe you'd be able to socialize a little better.  Do you know
what philosophy is about?  It's about speculation.  I said I liked the
open-mindedness.  So that evidently itself shows that you are either
trolling or simply want me to be insulting feminist.

Also, evidently I do know what feminism is.  We are discussing women in high political power, how does that not have anything to do with feminism?

Clearly,
you need to reread the post, or just not post, because you evidently
have nothing to put forth to this thread except for meaningless arguing,
and it's sickening, can we for once have a discussion on this forum without someone trying to ruin it for everyone?

I merely asked for speculation - I did not insult nor ask to be insulted.

Too long; didn't read?: Grow up.

Text most certainly does set a "tone". 

And from the "tone" of your post, yes, I do assume that you are male.  Are you saying that you are not?

As
for placing women in "political power" - women have been in "political
power" for ages.  Far far far before the origins of the feminist
movement.

As for "gowing up" - you purposely established a thread
that you knew would draw controversey.  In doing so I'd say - if you
can't handle the repercussions, don't go there in the first place.

As for you.. you know what, don't feed the trolls.  Unless you have something productive to say, I'm just going to stick with not replying.

Modifié par Sen4lifE, 23 avril 2011 - 07:11 .

[Maria Caliban]

Seena wrote...

It would be so helpful if people arguing about feminism actually knew what "feminism" was.

The original poster does appear to know what feminism is.

[JabbaDaHutt30]

I am fine with that, as long as it doesn't seem forced ( it doesn't ). Better that than to have the "Males are the expendable gender" double-standard trope.

Modifié par JabbaDaHutt30, 23 avril 2011 - 07:18 .

[Seena]

Sen4lifE wrote...


As for you.. you know what, don't feed the trolls.  Unless you have something productive to say, I'm just going to stick with not replying.

I guess you forgot your invitation:

  Anyhow, feel free to discuss - or flame.. we always know that's going to happen.

[JabbaDaHutt30]

Uzaik wrote...

And then there's the Arishok, the Illusive Man, King Cailan, the viscount, all of the Banns and Teyrns and Arls, not to mention canon Shepard is a male. I guess it's your perception.

there is no canon shepard... ( is there ? )

[Seena]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Seena wrote...

It would be so helpful if people arguing about feminism actually knew what "feminism" was.

The original poster does appear to know what feminism is.

I'd say that there were subtle hints that he does not.  He questions Bioware placing women in power (which they have been throughout history) - as if  they were superior and more powerful than men - and in doing so is Bioware catering to feminists:

But, what I mean is, look in Mass Effect, the Asari are the most powerful force in the galaxy and the first of that era to discover the citadel - they are all females. 

  I do not personally know if it's a way to please feminist or a way to show support, or if it is mere coincidence. It kind of makes me asks the question since BioWare are obvious supporters of freedom of sexual orientation, so it just makes me wonder if it's another thing slipped in or if it's a pattern not really meant to be a pattern.

Feminism (mainstream)  is about women being *equal* to men, not - superior or more powerful.

Modifié par Seena, 23 avril 2011 - 07:27 .