135 réponses à ce sujet

[Seena]

sorry was meant to be an edit

Modifié par Seena, 23 avril 2011 - 07:28 .

[TUHD]

Heh. Bioware always has been pretty open-minded about it.. it's just their tradition. BTW, RPGs are often the ground where it's more equal (of course some less) then in the majority of other games. KOTOR anyone? Also, Neverwinter Nights 1?

Edit: Seena - that's the theoretical description. While the majority of the feminists strive for equal rights - no problems with that - some of the older feminists strive beyond that. And that is why in some countries (at least in Europe) the term 'feminist' has got an 'dirty taste' - people who jump in at subjects, say 'Why don't you employ women more', even if it doesn't make sense - or if there are plenty of women in an organization.

Edit #2: Again @ Seena: I do not see any line in his posts where he says that Bioware starts 'to cater to feminists like they are superior'. That is just as an awful line as the straight male gamer who started to complain that Bioware 'didn't cater to the straight male gamer'.

Modifié par TUHD, 23 avril 2011 - 07:29 .

[aaniadyen]

Seena wrote...

Sen4lifE wrote...


As for you.. you know what, don't feed the trolls.  Unless you have something productive to say, I'm just going to stick with not replying.

I guess you forgot your invitation:

  Anyhow, feel free to discuss - or flame.. we always know that's going to happen.

So what you're saying is that you acknowledge what you are doing is flaming/trolling? ...You realize that violates the ToS, yes?

Also, I've noticed this "Trend" as well. I don't think it's so much gender favoratism as much as it is seeing gender as meaningless when determining societal role. If you notice, there are plenty of powerful males as well. I always took it to mean Bioware simply believed in equality. Maybe they simply notice that a large portion of their fan base are women now, so they place a lot of importance in it as well. Either way, whatever got them to get over the "Men are the only powerful people" stereotype doesn't much matter to me, just that they did.

Modifié par aaniadyen, 23 avril 2011 - 07:31 .

[JabbaDaHutt30]

Seena wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Seena wrote...

It would be so helpful if people arguing about feminism actually knew what "feminism" was.

The original poster does appear to know what feminism is.

I'd say that there were subtle hints that he does not.  He questions Bioware placing women in power (which they have throughout history) - as if  they were superior and more powerful than men - and in doing so is Bioware catering to feminists:

But, what I mean is, look in Mass Effect, the Asari are the most powerful force in the galaxy and the first of that era to discover the citadel - they are all females. 

Feminism (mainstream)  is about women being *equal* to men, not - superior or more powerful.

Just... shut up already, for Christ's sake.

[Maria Caliban]

Sen4lifE wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

I believe Dragon Age: Origins was the first BioWare game to have women writers. I think that's why you'll see more women in positions of power and authority than in previous titles.

As a company, I think BioWare tends to be more progressive when it comes to minority than other developers. It might be because they're Canadian while many popular developers are in the USA.

Haha - oh thanks, it's the Americans' fault.  But, I can not deny there is some truth in this.  While Canada is inspired by Western culture, they are also inspired by European culture and of late Europe tends to be much more open minded then Western culture, though we've made strides, too.

I don't believe it's entirely the location as BioWare is partly in the US also.  I believe it's more of coincidence - coincidence that at least the majority of writers are open minded instead of closed.  There is always someone open minded somewhere, but if too many people don't care for it, it won't show.

The teams that made Mass Effect and Dragon Age are both located in Edmonton, Canada. The Austin, TX team is the one working on The Old Republic MMO.

David Gaider, the lead writer, seemed quite open-minded. He also created Meredith and Cassandra, so it's not as though only the females on the team are making the powerful female characters.

And the part of women writing makes sense.  It's almost an innate sense to reflect your own gender and characteristics into your writing - male or female.  Because when you do create fantasies, it's from your internal thoughts, desires and views.  While you can try to make scenarios open for all, some things are still going to be left in there that are personal to the writer.

I agree with this.

Though, I don't care who's writing it, as long as it's good.  And just to put this in here, off-topic, whoever wrote Anders wasn't good this time around.  They weren't horrible, I've seen much much worse, they just seemed inexperienced.  Things were too much monodirectional in his dialogue and just all things revolving around him.

I think Anders and Fenris were both good examples of what happens when you give into extremism. This is the first time Bioware has made a game centered around politics and they obviously wanted to give us characters who felt passionately about the various social issues we encounter along with some light-hearted companions.

I agree a better mix would be good, but I think that's true of all companion.

Isabela seems to only care about sex. Fenris is angry at mages. Anders wants freedom for mages. Sebastion is devoted to the Chantry. Varric doesn't care about anything but his circle of friends.

Merrill and Aveline seem less monodirectional.

[Nasabe]

Well to create an alternate universe and to imply that it is "different", the easiest way should be to turn things upside down.

Or maybe Bioware artists have some dominant mothers?

I'd wager it has something to do with my first sentence and not the second though.

[Sen4lifE]

TUHD wrote...

Heh. Bioware always has been pretty open-minded about it.. it's just their tradition. BTW, RPGs are often the ground where it's more equal (of course some less) then in the majority of other games. KOTOR anyone? Also, Neverwinter Nights 1?

I tend to either find RPGs are more equal or more extreme.  It's usually either following some over-masculinated hero and women are just there to encite the player and further boost that "masculinity" or they are rather fair in there depiction.

[Seena]

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...

Seena wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Seena wrote...

It would be so helpful if people arguing about feminism actually knew what "feminism" was.

The original poster does appear to know what feminism is.

I'd say that there were subtle hints that he does not.  He questions Bioware placing women in power (which they have throughout history) - as if  they were superior and more powerful than men - and in doing so is Bioware catering to feminists:

But, what I mean is, look in Mass Effect, the Asari are the most powerful force in the galaxy and the first of that era to discover the citadel - they are all females. 

Feminism (mainstream)  is about women being *equal* to men, not - superior or more powerful.

Just... shut up already, for Christ's sake.

jabba dear !  I love you too.

[Seena]

TUHD wrote...

Heh. Bioware always has been pretty open-minded about it.. it's just their tradition. BTW, RPGs are often the ground where it's more equal (of course some less) then in the majority of other games. KOTOR anyone? Also, Neverwinter Nights 1?

Edit: Seena - that's the theoretical description. While the majority of the feminists strive for equal rights - no problems with that - some of the older feminists strive beyond that. And that is why in some countries (at least in Europe) the term 'feminist' has got an 'dirty taste' - people who jump in at subjects, say 'Why don't you employ women more', even if it doesn't make sense - or if there are plenty of women in an organization.

But we received no clarification from the OP did we?

[Seena]

aaniadyen wrote...

So what you're saying is that you acknowledge what you are doing is flaming/trolling? ...You realize that violates the ToS, yes?

Oh noos not the dreaded TOS?

I asked if his delicate male ego was bruised - he retailiated with very personal attacks.

I suggest you grow thicker skins if you want to navigate the vast conflaguration of internet discussion.

[TUHD]

Seena wrote...

TUHD wrote...

Heh. Bioware always has been pretty open-minded about it.. it's just their tradition. BTW, RPGs are often the ground where it's more equal (of course some less) then in the majority of other games. KOTOR anyone? Also, Neverwinter Nights 1?

Edit: Seena - that's the theoretical description. While the majority of the feminists strive for equal rights - no problems with that - some of the older feminists strive beyond that. And that is why in some countries (at least in Europe) the term 'feminist' has got an 'dirty taste' - people who jump in at subjects, say 'Why don't you employ women more', even if it doesn't make sense - or if there are plenty of women in an organization.

But we received no clarification from the OP did we?

See my second edit for that - and the OPs original post. While he phrased it a bit awkard, he didn't mean it in a bad/flaming way as far as I can tell.

[aaniadyen]

Seena wrote...

TUHD wrote...

Heh. Bioware always has been pretty open-minded about it.. it's just their tradition. BTW, RPGs are often the ground where it's more equal (of course some less) then in the majority of other games. KOTOR anyone? Also, Neverwinter Nights 1?

Edit: Seena - that's the theoretical description. While the majority of the feminists strive for equal rights - no problems with that - some of the older feminists strive beyond that. And that is why in some countries (at least in Europe) the term 'feminist' has got an 'dirty taste' - people who jump in at subjects, say 'Why don't you employ women more', even if it doesn't make sense - or if there are plenty of women in an organization.

But we received no clarification from the OP did we?

But this thread isn't for trying to define feminism...it's off topic.

[Sen4lifE]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Sen4lifE wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

I believe Dragon Age: Origins was the first BioWare game to have women writers. I think that's why you'll see more women in positions of power and authority than in previous titles.

As a company, I think BioWare tends to be more progressive when it comes to minority than other developers. It might be because they're Canadian while many popular developers are in the USA.

Haha - oh thanks, it's the Americans' fault.  But, I can not deny there is some truth in this.  While Canada is inspired by Western culture, they are also inspired by European culture and of late Europe tends to be much more open minded then Western culture, though we've made strides, too.

I don't believe it's entirely the location as BioWare is partly in the US also.  I believe it's more of coincidence - coincidence that at least the majority of writers are open minded instead of closed.  There is always someone open minded somewhere, but if too many people don't care for it, it won't show.

The teams that made Mass Effect and Dragon Age are both located in Edmonton, Canada. The Austin, TX team is the one working on The Old Republic MMO.

David Gaider, the lead writer, seemed quite open-minded. He also created Meredith and Cassandra, so it's not as though only the females on the team are making the powerful female characters.

And the part of women writing makes sense.  It's almost an innate sense to reflect your own gender and characteristics into your writing - male or female.  Because when you do create fantasies, it's from your internal thoughts, desires and views.  While you can try to make scenarios open for all, some things are still going to be left in there that are personal to the writer.

I agree with this.

Though, I don't care who's writing it, as long as it's good.  And just to put this in here, off-topic, whoever wrote Anders wasn't good this time around.  They weren't horrible, I've seen much much worse, they just seemed inexperienced.  Things were too much monodirectional in his dialogue and just all things revolving around him.

I think Anders and Fenris were both good examples of what happens when you give into extremism. This is the first time Bioware has made a game centered around politics and they obviously wanted to give us characters who felt passionately about the various social issues we encounter along with some light-hearted companions.

I agree a better mix would be good, but I think that's true of all companion.

Isabela seems to only care about sex. Fenris is angry at mages. Anders wants freedom for mages. Sebastion is devoted to the Chantry. Varric doesn't care about anything but his circle of friends.

Merrill and Aveline seem less monodirectional.

I understand and yes, BioWare writers, male or female tend to be open minded.  I just think the reason BioWare reflects it as a company is because a good portion are.  I won't deny it could be influenced by location, but I doubt also it is the sole reason.

And my point to that was the character interaction with Anders.  I always find myself in a very strict conversation with Anders.  A lot of people don't understand what I mean by that.  I made a thread before about Anders' dialogue when he flirts with you and you only being able to flirt with him or choose to be almost homophobic.  Some people disagreed, but this is further proven by later dialogue when you only get either 2 options to flirt with him or one option to be aggressive.  Not heart breaking, it is not the heart breaking icon, it is the aggressive icon.  So.. what the heck is up with that?  I can only be aggressive Hawke and not diplomatic/sarcastic, or flirt.  Flirt should be a side option, not replace options.

With Fenris, I have yet to encounter this problem, flirt is always an extra option, it doesn't limit my personality and back me up into a corner telling me I can either be gay/bisexual or be rude/aggressive.

So yes, I think whoever wrote Anders' dialogue, was inexperienced.  I don't know if it was intentional, but basically it seems they were thinking one way when writing it, and didn't come to thought about other possible scenarios.  It felt like amateur writing, and still kind of angers me when I see either rude/flirt.  There should be rude/diplomatic/sarcastic/flirt.

But I digress, that is not what this thread is about.

[Seena]

TUHD wrote...

See my second edit for that - and the OPs original post. While he phrased it a bit awkard, he didn't mean it in a bad/flaming way as far as I can tell.

I didn't accuse him of flaming - i accused him of not knowing really, what feminism is.  : )

Perhaps "catering to" was too strong a descriptor. But this is what he said that says to me he feels that Bioware was "catering to" "supporting" (insert your preferred term here)

 
I do not personally know if it's a way to please feminist or a way to show support, or if it is mere coincidence.

[TUHD]

Like I said, he phrased it a bit awkard (ok, REALLY awkard). But nonetheless, try to 'look behind the words' - and the meaning. I've learned it myself, since at times I found out that people meant it really otherwise then they wrote it up (non-native speakers etc)

[Seena]

aaniadyen wrote...


But this thread isn't for trying to define feminism...it's off topic.

This thread is about Bioware chosing certain plot developments that supports/acknowledges (use what ever term you prefer) - feminism.

If you misuderstand feminism, how can you theorize that Bioware is intentionally writing plots in order to support/acknoledge/cater to it?

Modifié par Seena, 23 avril 2011 - 07:40 .

[JabbaDaHutt30]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Sen4lifE wrote...

I do not personally know if it's a way to please feminist or a way to show support, or if it is mere coincidence.  It kind of makes me asks the question since BioWare are obvious supporters of freedom of sexual orientation, so it just makes me wonder if it's another thing slipped in or if it's a pattern not really meant to be a pattern.

I believe Dragon Age: Origins was the first BioWare game to have women writers. I think that's why you'll see more women in positions of power and authority than in previous titles.

As a company, I think BioWare tends to be more progressive when it comes to minority than other developers. It might be because they're Canadian while many popular developers are in the USA.

There were other examples: Bastila, Aribeth, even the player character is an example. BioWare RPG's always allowed you to pick your gender and it's a given that you were placed in a position of power throughout the game.

Not sure if the asari are an excellent example of fair portrayal of women however. They're the typical exotic all-female alien species type, who can mate with any other species and are even encouraged to. 

Modifié par JabbaDaHutt30, 23 avril 2011 - 07:40 .

[Sen4lifE]

Seena wrote...

aaniadyen wrote...

So what you're saying is that you acknowledge what you are doing is flaming/trolling? ...You realize that violates the ToS, yes?

Oh noos not the dreaded TOS?

I asked if his delicate male ego was bruised - he retailiated with very personal attacks.

I suggest you grow thicker skins if you want to navigate the vast conflaguration of internet discussion.

Asking that question is a personal attack. No one is going to think otherwise, at least no one that matters on that decision (ie, moderator/staff). Don't try to play the inoccent victim card.

And, your own quote of my words disproves your accusations.

You say I believe they were "catering to" it. I said I don't know if they were showing support or if it was coincidence.

That in itself is the exact point. You assumed I believed one of those two reasons, I never did state that or show bias, I said I do not know.

That is why text does not have tone. If it did, it would have shown whether or not I as just speculating on why, or if I was accusing BioWare of supporting it and offering an alternative if I was wrong.

It was the first one, and I'm not going to go through and speculate every possible response to my words in case someone tries to find the worst implication of it to complain about.

That is what I meant by grow up. It's obvious you were trying to find the worst meaning to my words just to argue.

[Seena]

TUHD wrote...

Like I said, he phrased it a bit awkard (ok, REALLY awkard). But nonetheless, try to 'look behind the words' - and the meaning. I've learned it myself, since at times I found out that people meant it really otherwise then they wrote it up (non-native speakers etc)

Perhaps - but I don't get the impression English isn't his native language.  Just like I don't get the impression - that he's female.

Of course, I'm biased by his previous writings- which you may not be privy to. : )

[AkiKishi]

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...
Not sure if the asari are an excellent example of fair portrayal of women however. They're the typical exotic all-female alien species type, who can mate with any other species and are even encouraged to. 

Space ****s whats not to love?

[JabbaDaHutt30]

Seena wrote...

TUHD wrote...

Like I said, he phrased it a bit awkard (ok, REALLY awkard). But nonetheless, try to 'look behind the words' - and the meaning. I've learned it myself, since at times I found out that people meant it really otherwise then they wrote it up (non-native speakers etc)

Perhaps - but I don't get the impression English isn't his native language.  Just like I don't get the impression - that he's female.

Of course, I'm biased by his previous writings- which you may not be privy to. : )

I get the strong impression that you're male... I hope I did not offend?

[Sen4lifE]

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...

....

Not sure if the asari are an excellent example of fair portrayal of women however. They're the typical exotic all-female alien species type, who can mate with any other species and are even encouraged to. 

That's what I mean by BioWare tends to use a "two extremes make an equal" approach.  They're powerful and self-reliant, yet the typical erotic envisionment from a male.

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...

Seena wrote...

TUHD wrote...

Like
I said, he phrased it a bit awkard (ok, REALLY awkard). But
nonetheless, try to 'look behind the words' - and the meaning. I've
learned it myself, since at times I found out that people meant it
really otherwise then they wrote it up (non-native speakers etc)

Perhaps
- but I don't get the impression English isn't his native language. 
Just like I don't get the impression - that he's female.

Of course, I'm biased by his previous writings- which you may not be privy to. : )

I get the strong impression that you're male... I hope I did not offend?

It's irrelevant to the topic - but on a personal note, yes, I am.

Modifié par Sen4lifE, 23 avril 2011 - 07:46 .

[Seena]

Sen4lifE wrote...



Asking that question is a personal attack. No one is going to think otherwise, at least no one that matters on that decision (ie, moderator/staff). Don't try to play the inoccent victim card.

And, your own quote of my words disproves your accusations.

You say I believe they were "catering to" it. I said I don't know if they were showing support or if it was coincidence.

That in itself is the exact point. You assumed I believed one of those two reasons, I never did state that or show bias, I said I do not know.

That is why text does not have tone. If it did, it would have shown whether or not I as just speculating on why, or if I was accusing BioWare of supporting it and offering an alternative if I was wrong.

It was the first one, and I'm not going to go through and speculate every possible response to my words in case someone tries to find the worst implication of it to complain about.

That is what I meant by grow up. It's obvious you were trying to find the worst meaning to my words just to argue.

Innocent victim?  Now who is making assumptions?

If you feel that it was a "personal attack" - please, feel free to report me.

The fact that you made this thread, clearly illustrates that you are concerned that Bioware is "supporting" femininsm  - otherwise why the mention of feminism to begin with?

I have already stated that "catering to" was a strong choice of words.  So, you can retract that point.

Modifié par Seena, 23 avril 2011 - 07:49 .

[JabbaDaHutt30]

Sen4lifE wrote...

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...

....

Not sure if the asari are an excellent example of fair portrayal of women however. They're the typical exotic all-female alien species type, who can mate with any other species and are even encouraged to. 

That's what I mean by BioWare tends to use a "two extremes make an equal" approach.  They're powerful and self-reliant, yet the typical erotic envisionment from a male.

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...

Seena wrote...

TUHD wrote...

Like
I said, he phrased it a bit awkard (ok, REALLY awkard). But
nonetheless, try to 'look behind the words' - and the meaning. I've
learned it myself, since at times I found out that people meant it
really otherwise then they wrote it up (non-native speakers etc)

Perhaps
- but I don't get the impression English isn't his native language. 
Just like I don't get the impression - that he's female.

Of course, I'm biased by his previous writings- which you may not be privy to. : )

I get the strong impression that you're male... I hope I did not offend?

It's irrelevant to the topic - but on a personal note, yes, I am.

Oh, not you! I meant Seena! 

Again, I hope I did not offend... I often get identities mixed up on the internet...

[Seena]

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...


I get the strong impression that you're male... I hope I did not offend?

Offend? No, not at all- I'm not offended by text typed by someone I don't know.

And don't worry - people often assume I'm male -- and I'm perfectly fine with that.