135 réponses à ce sujet

[Sen4lifE]

Seena wrote...

Sen4lifE wrote...



Asking that question is a personal attack. No one is going to think otherwise, at least no one that matters on that decision (ie, moderator/staff). Don't try to play the inoccent victim card.

And, your own quote of my words disproves your accusations.

You say I believe they were "catering to" it. I said I don't know if they were showing support or if it was coincidence.

That in itself is the exact point. You assumed I believed one of those two reasons, I never did state that or show bias, I said I do not know.

That is why text does not have tone. If it did, it would have shown whether or not I as just speculating on why, or if I was accusing BioWare of supporting it and offering an alternative if I was wrong.

It was the first one, and I'm not going to go through and speculate every possible response to my words in case someone tries to find the worst implication of it to complain about.

That is what I meant by grow up. It's obvious you were trying to find the worst meaning to my words just to argue.

Innocent victim?  Now who is making assumptions?

If you feel that it was a "personal attack" - please, feel free to report me.

The fact that you made this thread, clearly illustrates that you are concerned that Bioware is "supporting" femininsm  - otherwise why the mention of feminism to begin with?

I have already stated that "catering to" was a strong choice of words.  So, you can't retract that point.

Seena wrote...

I asked if his delicate male ego was bruised - he retailiated with very personal attacks.

No, it does not clearly illustrate that I'm concerned that BioWare is supporting feminism.  Isn't my original comment on how I think it's a positive and interesting aspect of their writing (putting females in equal position to what a male could achieve over the traditional biased enmasculated writing) counter-productive to your argument?

The mentioning of feminism was speculation.  You really don't seem to understand what speculation is.  It's the meaning of making this thread in the first place.  I was stating that, given BioWare's history on incorporating political elements into their literature, it could be a way of supporting feminism (just as making everyone bisexual was a way of supporting free sexuality, that of which I do believe to be true) or it could have been a coincidence.  Meaning it could have a meaning beneath it, or simply no one thought of it and were simply writing characters.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...

Sen4lifE wrote...

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...

....

Not
sure if the asari are an excellent example of fair portrayal of women
however. They're the typical exotic all-female alien species type, who
can mate with any other species and are even encouraged to. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/grin.png[/smilie]

That's
what I mean by BioWare tends to use a "two extremes make an equal"
approach.  They're powerful and self-reliant, yet the typical erotic
envisionment from a male.

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...

Seena wrote...

TUHD wrote...

Like
I said, he phrased it a bit awkard (ok, REALLY awkard). But
nonetheless, try to 'look behind the words' - and the meaning. I've
learned it myself, since at times I found out that people meant it
really otherwise then they wrote it up (non-native speakers etc)

Perhaps
- but I don't get the impression English isn't his native language. 
Just like I don't get the impression - that he's female.

Of course, I'm biased by his previous writings- which you may not be privy to. : )

I get the strong impression that you're male... I hope I did not offend?

It's irrelevant to the topic - but on a personal note, yes, I am.

Oh, not you! I meant Seena! 

Again, I hope I did not offend... I often get identities mixed up on the internet...

Oops.  I thought you were remarking to our previous argument.  Apologies.

Modifié par Sen4lifE, 23 avril 2011 - 07:54 .

[JabbaDaHutt30]

Seena wrote...

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...


I get the strong impression that you're male... I hope I did not offend?

Offend? No, not at all- I'm not offended by text typed by someone I don't know.

And don't worry - people often assume I'm male -- and I'm perfectly fine with that.

I am glad that you're not offended.

Like I said, I'm bad at figuring people out over the internet.

I always assumed only men wore combat boots ( just my way of emphasizing a stereotype )... but it looks like this is just another erroneous preconception of mine. 

[Maria Caliban]

I don't get the feeling that Sen4lifE is against feminism.

On the forums, there tends to be a rift between those that view BioWare's decisions as deliberate manipulation of various demographics and those that thing BioWare just makes the games they desire, and their desires tend to appeal to various demographics. The truth is probably in between but I lean toward 'they make the games they desire to make.'

I doubt anyone sits around the BioWare office contemplating how to make characters that appeal to feminists. I think they make characters they like, which include women in positions of power or respect.

[Seena]

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...

Seena wrote...

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...


I get the strong impression that you're male... I hope I did not offend?

Offend? No, not at all- I'm not offended by text typed by someone I don't know.

And don't worry - people often assume I'm male -- and I'm perfectly fine with that.

I am glad that you're not offended.

Like I said, I'm bad at figuring people out over the internet.

I always assumed only men wore combat boots ( just my way of emphasizing a stereotype )... but it looks like this is just another erroneous preconception of mine. 

My combat boots are steel tipped and spiked -  how does that fit into your stereotype?

[AkiKishi]

Maria Caliban wrote...
I doubt anyone sits around the BioWare office contemplating how to make characters that appeal to feminists. I think they make characters they like, which include women in positions of power or respect.

Not so sure about that.. I mean they made everyone bisexual for no good reason other than to pander to segments of the fanbase.

[Sen4lifE]

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...

Seena wrote...

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...


I get the strong impression that you're male... I hope I did not offend?

Offend? No, not at all- I'm not offended by text typed by someone I don't know.

And don't worry - people often assume I'm male -- and I'm perfectly fine with that.

I am glad that you're not offended.

Like I said, I'm bad at figuring people out over the internet.

I always assumed only men wore combat boots ( just my way of emphasizing a stereotype )... but it looks like this is just another erroneous preconception of mine. 

That sounded like it had a hidden Sensei meaning to it.

But really, we should get back on topic.

I think the open-mindedness in all aspects give more depth to their writing, almost as if more freedom to it.

[Seena]

Sen4lifE wrote...

No, it does not clearly illustrate that I'm concerned that BioWare is supporting feminism.  Isn't my original comment on how I think it's a positive and interesting aspect of their writing (putting females in equal position to what a male could achieve over the traditional biased enmasculated writing) counter-productive to your argument? 

I'm sorry- where do you mention anything positive about placing women in power:

Do you ever notice the little trend BioWare has of putting women in powerful positions? I'm not complaining, I just noticed the pattern.

It is pecular because in traditional human thinking we normally see men as rights of power (I'm not saying I support that nor is this thread to argue that - but it is mentioned by a BioWare writer and it's a rather true fact).

But, what I mean is, look in Mass Effect, the Asari are the most powerful force in the galaxy and the first of that era to discover the citadel - they are all females. In Dragon Age, the Chantry high powers are always female, the Divine, the Grand Clerics, and the Chantry is held as the highest power of authority. The Seeker is a female also.

I'm not trying to be sexist so sorry if I offend, but it is a little past mere coincidence if you consider it. It just tends to be a pattern. I do not personally know if it's a way to please feminist or a way to show support, or if it is mere coincidence. It kind of makes me asks the question since BioWare are obvious supporters of freedom of sexual orientation, so it just makes me wonder if it's another thing slipped in or if it's a pattern not really meant to be a pattern.

Anyhow, feel free to discuss - or flame.. we always know that's going to happen.

 

I've read your post through three times- I don't see where you mention anything positive about Bioware's choices.

Modifié par Seena, 23 avril 2011 - 08:01 .

[Braindeer]

Seena, I literally love you. I agree with everything you've said in this thread.

On to the topic at hand...

The thing I'm wondering is why it seems so unusual for women to be in positions of power that it is causing so much consternation amongst forum-goers. I prefer to see people as individuals, not examples of their gender. Therefore, Meredith is a strong character, not a strong female character. Anora is a strong character, not a strong female character. By insterting their gender into the sentence it makes it seem like it's an unuasual trait. "She's strong...for a woman".

You wouldn't say "a strong male character", would you?

It also worries me that Bioware are seen as being spectacularly open-minded because they cast women in important roles. Like...woah. Subversive.

Modifié par Braindeer, 23 avril 2011 - 08:01 .

[Sen4lifE]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I don't get the feeling that Sen4lifE is against feminism.

On the forums, there tends to be a rift between those that view BioWare's decisions as deliberate manipulation of various demographics and those that thing BioWare just makes the games they desire, and their desires tend to appeal to various demographics. The truth is probably in between but I lean toward 'they make the games they desire to make.'

I doubt anyone sits around the BioWare office contemplating how to make characters that appeal to feminists. I think they make characters they like, which include women in positions of power or respect.

I think you would be very amazed.  Writing is an art, they're payed to sit in their offices and contemplate on how to appeal to fans.  Relating to real world political issues is common in art creations.  I do not doubt at all there is something made to appeal to everyone.  Example, Isabela appeals to the typical whorish male.  Aveline appeals to women who strive to be self-reliant and strong.  I would even go as far to say Aveline is meant to appeal to feminist.

Nothing wrong with that.  In fact, it's been in the art for years.  Writers create characters that readers (or in this case, players) can relate to.  If they feel alienated or akward with everybody, they might just drop the controller and stop playing.

[TUHD]

Braindeer wrote...
It also worries me that Bioware are seen as being spectacularly open-minded because they cast women in important roles. Like...woah. Subversive.

Because in reality it isn't as normal that women are in an important role? (Partly this is because of stereotypes, and partly because a lot of highly educated women chose to completely give up their career when they get an childwish)

[Sen4lifE]

Seena wrote...

Sen4lifE wrote...

No, it does not clearly illustrate that I'm concerned that BioWare is supporting feminism.  Isn't my original comment on how I think it's a positive and interesting aspect of their writing (putting females in equal position to what a male could achieve over the traditional biased enmasculated writing) counter-productive to your argument? 

I'm sorry- where do you mention anything positive about placing women in power:

Do you ever notice the little trend BioWare has of putting women in powerful positions? I'm not complaining, I just noticed the pattern.

It is pecular because in traditional human thinking we normally see men as rights of power (I'm not saying I support that nor is this thread to argue that - but it is mentioned by a BioWare writer and it's a rather true fact).

But, what I mean is, look in Mass Effect, the Asari are the most powerful force in the galaxy and the first of that era to discover the citadel - they are all females. In Dragon Age, the Chantry high powers are always female, the Divine, the Grand Clerics, and the Chantry is held as the highest power of authority. The Seeker is a female also.

I'm not trying to be sexist so sorry if I offend, but it is a little past mere coincidence if you consider it. It just tends to be a pattern. I do not personally know if it's a way to please feminist or a way to show support, or if it is mere coincidence. It kind of makes me asks the question since BioWare are obvious supporters of freedom of sexual orientation, so it just makes me wonder if it's another thing slipped in or if it's a pattern not really meant to be a pattern.

Anyhow, feel free to discuss - or flame.. we always know that's going to happen.

 

I've read your post through three times- I don't see where you mention anything positive about Bioware's choices.

When do I say anything negative?  Counter-point to point.

Saying nothing positive is not saying anything negative.  In fact, saying nothing positive nor negative is characteristic to neutrality.

[Seena]

Braindeer wrote...

Seena, I literally love you. I agree with everything you've said in this thread.

On to the topic at hand...

The thing I'm wondering is why it seems so unusual for women to be in positions of power that it is causing so much consternation amongst forum-goers. I prefer to see people as individuals, not examples of their gender. Therefore, Meredith is a strong character, not a strong female character. Anora is a strong character, not a strong female character. By insterting their gender into the sentence it makes it seem like it's an unuasual trait. "She's strong...for a woman".

You wouldn't say "a strong male character", would you?

It also worries me that Bioware are seen as being spectacularly open-minded because they cast women in important roles. Like...woah. Subversive.

Hehehe thanks Braindeer -  be careful tho- next thing you know, Jabba will be questioning you about your choice of footwear.  

[Maria Caliban]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...
I doubt anyone sits around the BioWare office contemplating how to make characters that appeal to feminists. I think they make characters they like, which include women in positions of power or respect.

Not so sure about that.. I mean they made everyone bisexual for no good reason other than to pander to segments of the fanbase.

If you're going to say it that way, I'd consider all romances - straight, gay, or bisexual - as pandering.

In Dragon Age: Origins, two of their romances only pandered to people who like straight romances. In Dragon Age II, they pander to anyone who like any type of romance.

And while gay or bisexual players might be pleased at the change, I think they're a minority compared to straight men who like f/f and straight women who like m/m.

Braindeer wrote...

By insterting their gender into the sentence it makes it seem like it's an unuasual trait.

It is. A woman in a position of power is unusual in both the real world and in fiction.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 23 avril 2011 - 08:10 .

[AkiKishi]

Sen4lifE wrote...
  Aveline appeals to women who strive to be self-reliant and strong.  I would even go as far to say Aveline is meant to appeal to feminist.

Did you do Avelines "romance" quest? Certainly it was amusing.

[Sen4lifE]

Braindeer wrote...

Seena, I literally love you. I agree with everything you've said in this thread.

On to the topic at hand...

The thing I'm wondering is why it seems so unusual for women to be in positions of power that it is causing so much consternation amongst forum-goers. I prefer to see people as individuals, not examples of their gender. Therefore, Meredith is a strong character, not a strong female character. Anora is a strong character, not a strong female character. By insterting their gender into the sentence it makes it seem like it's an unuasual trait. "She's strong...for a woman".

You wouldn't say "a strong male character", would you?

It also worries me that Bioware are seen as being spectacularly open-minded because they cast women in important roles. Like...woah. Subversive.

Because, all too often, creation is portrayed with stereotype.  How often do you see games or books made with women in high power?  How often do you see them with LGBTs?

[Seena]

Sen4lifE wrote...
When do I say anything negative?  Counter-point to point.

Saying nothing positive is not saying anything negative.  In fact, saying nothing positive nor negative is characteristic to neutrality.

Are you certain that you really know what you wrote?

Here you state:

   
Isn't my original comment on how I think it's a positive and interesting aspect of their writing (putting females in equal position to what a male could achieve over the traditional biased enmasculated writing) counter-productive to your argument?

And now you claim neutrality??????

Seriously - you change your story with every post. 

Modifié par Seena, 23 avril 2011 - 08:07 .

[Seena]

Sen4lifE wrote...

Because, all too often, creation is portrayed with stereotype.  How often do you see games or books made with women in high power?  How often do you see them with LGBTs?

lol you are digging yourself deeper now.

[Sen4lifE]

And my point to the positive is that I mentioned, several times, that I think it gives a better view and more creativity to their writing.  That is something positive.  I never said it was in my first post, I said I had said it.  Just because it wasn't in the post you selected, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

[Sen4lifE]

Seena wrote...

Sen4lifE wrote...

Because, all too often, creation is portrayed with stereotype.  How often do you see games or books made with women in high power?  How often do you see them with LGBTs?

lol you are digging yourself deeper now.

lol you are really running out of material to attack me with, aren't you?

And I was saying it's a positive view on their writing.  I did not say it was a positive nor negative view of feminism.

You claimed I was being negative.  You have nothing to back that up now.  Now you're resorting to meaningless posts.

[AkiKishi]

Maria Caliban wrote...
If you're going to say it that way, I'd consider all romances - straight, gay, or bisexual - as pandering.

In Dragon Age: Origins, two of their romances only pandered to people who like straight romances. In Dragon Age II, they pander to anyone who like any type of romance.

And while gay or bisexual players might be pleased at the change, I think they're a minority compared to straight men who like f/f and straight women who like m/m.

I would say sexuality is a big part of someones identity. I can't see any good character reason,which leaves pandering.

[Braindeer]

TUHD wrote...

Braindeer wrote...
It also worries me that Bioware are seen as being spectacularly open-minded because they cast women in important roles. Like...woah. Subversive.

Because in reality it isn't as normal that women are in an important role? (Partly this is because of stereotypes, and partly because a lot of highly educated women chose to completely give up their career when they get an childwish)

I...can't even begin to explain how ridiculous this statement is. Give me a minute and I'll respond coherently. For now I am laughing too much get the words out.

Okay, edited to add:

http://www.guide2wom...governments.htm

...and also to say that having children is BY NO MEANS a barrier to women taking positions of power. Statements like this assume that childcare is entirely the province of women, and not at all the responsibility of the man who fathered said infant. As if once a woman has given birth her brain and capabilities just fly on out the window, and she has no other option but nappies FOR ETERNITY. God forbid she should return to work and let the father do some of the nappy changing...

Modifié par Braindeer, 23 avril 2011 - 08:22 .

[Seena]

Sen4lifE wrote...

And my point to the positive is that I mentioned, several times, that I think it gives a better view and more creativity to their writing.  That is something positive.  I never said it was in my first post, I said I had said it.  Just because it wasn't in the post you selected, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

You never EVER once, in your OP,  mention anything "positive" about Bioware's choice to place women in powerful positions.  You never EVER stated that their doing so "gives a better view and more creativity".

Man o mano.

[Sen4lifE]

Seena wrote...

Sen4lifE wrote...
When do I say anything negative?  Counter-point to point.

Saying nothing positive is not saying anything negative.  In fact, saying nothing positive nor negative is characteristic to neutrality.

Are you certain that you really know what you wrote?

Here you state:

   
Isn't my original comment on how I think it's a positive and interesting aspect of their writing (putting females in equal position to what a male could achieve over the traditional biased enmasculated writing) counter-productive to your argument?

And now you claim neutrality??????

Seriously - you change your story with every post. 

And I never claimed nuetrality there, I said it was a characteristic.  You can quote me, but you fail your argument when you speak for me.

[Sen4lifE]

Seena wrote...

Sen4lifE wrote...

And my point to the positive is that I mentioned, several times, that I think it gives a better view and more creativity to their writing.  That is something positive.  I never said it was in my first post, I said I had said it.  Just because it wasn't in the post you selected, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

You never EVER once, in your OP,  mention anything "positive" about Bioware's choice to place women in powerful positions.  You never EVER stated that their doing so "gives a better view and more creativity".

Man o mano.

And I never said anything negative, did I? 

[Merci357]

Braindeer wrote...


On to the topic at hand...

The thing I'm wondering is why it seems so unusual for women to be in positions of power that it is causing so much consternation amongst forum-goers. I prefer to see people as individuals, not examples of their gender. Therefore, Meredith is a strong character, not a strong female character. Anora is a strong character, not a strong female character. By insterting their gender into the sentence it makes it seem like it's an unuasual trait. "She's strong...for a woman".

You wouldn't say "a strong male character", would you?

I guess that's a different, but related topic. There are certain traits that are commonly seen as "male", and others that are taken as "female." Sure, that's stereotypical, since (at least that's my take of it) all these traits together are very human, and we all possess them, in different quantities. If you differ from a arbitrary cultural norm, you're instantly labeled tomboy or sissy boy. And I freely admit I'm somewhat of the later...

That said, I would say "a strong man" as I would say "a strong woman". But that's just how it is - there are strong man, and many (like I) aren't. As there are strong and not so strong woman. In short, I could say "strong person" just as well, the adjective strong isn't devaluated or suddenly elevated if put in conjunction with a gender. Then again, that's just my stance.
I'm genuinely surprised someone could be offended when I say "strong woman."

Modifié par Merci357, 23 avril 2011 - 08:15 .