135 réponses à ce sujet

[Braindeer]

Merci357 wrote...

Braindeer wrote...


On to the topic at hand...

The thing I'm wondering is why it seems so unusual for women to be in positions of power that it is causing so much consternation amongst forum-goers. I prefer to see people as individuals, not examples of their gender. Therefore, Meredith is a strong character, not a strong female character. Anora is a strong character, not a strong female character. By insterting their gender into the sentence it makes it seem like it's an unuasual trait. "She's strong...for a woman".

You wouldn't say "a strong male character", would you?

I guess that's a different, but related topic. There are certain traits that are commonly seen as "male", and others that are taken as "female." Sure, that's stereotypical, since (at least that's my take of it) all these traits together are very human, and we all possess them, in different quantities. If you differ from a arbitrary cultural norm, you're instantly labeled tomboy or sissy boy. And I freely admit I'm somewhat of the later...

That said, I would say "a strong man" as I would say "a strong woman". But that's just how it is - there are strong man, and many (like I) aren't. As there are strong and not so strong woman. In short, I could say "strong person" just as well, the adjective strong isn't devaluated or suddenly elevated if put in conjuction with a gender. Then again, that's just my stance.
I'm genuinely surprised someone yould be offended when I say "strong woman."

I take your point, and I agree with you in part. I just often find that gender is brought in to denote that a character is deviating from the assigned path, as in the example of a "strong female character". As if you should be surprised to discover that a character is both strong AND female.

However I understand that perhaps this seems a little over-sensitive. I know I can come across that way!

[Seena]

Sen4lifE wrote...


And I never said anything negative, did I? 

I would say that simply questioning Bioware's decision - without specifically SUPPORTING it (which you have not - at all, despite your backpeddling)  is, by default,  having a "problem" with it.   I mean,  why question it. if you were 100% ok with it?

If you want I can pull some of your comments that had a pretty negative connotation  ---  if you really want to go there.

[John Epler]

Tone down the rhetoric and hostility on both sides, folks, or I'll be locking this thread.

[Sen4lifE]

Maybe it would be helpful if I restate the original post, since all you want to do is find the absence of what is said and twist it into the existence of something else.

I find it a pattern, whether coincidence or intended, that women are often placed at high authority in BioWare's literature. It could simply be the inspiration of the writer, their culture, location, political views, or it could just be an nonexistent pattern.

My examples are:

The Asari. A race of females who are responsible for the productivity of the entire galaxy and are by far the strongest of all council races.

Knight-Commander Meredith. Despite the viscount being a male, he is only a puppet.

The Chantry is upheld as the most powerful entity in Thedas. It is predominately controlled by females.

It is interesting and seems like a pattern. What really makes it interesting is that, even a BioWare writer mentioned that the human race typically views males as a dominant power.

It's interesting, and it could be unbiasism or reverse-biasism. I think it's the former. While many of their writing incorporates political aspects, I think BioWare is just generally open minded about other matters than just feminism, but feminism included.

I do think it adds more characteristics to their writing. I believe it allows for more in-depth, less limited story telling and allows for a real view of an actual "alternate world." I have mentioned before, not just in this thread, that I support those kind of things. Not for the fanbase themselves necessarily, but that it really gives more ways that the story could go.

It's interesting. Hence the name of this thread, "An Interesting Thought"

[Merci357]

Braindeer wrote...

I take your point, and I agree with you in part. I just often find that gender is brought in to denote that a character is deviating from the assigned path, as in the example of a "strong female character". As if you should be surprised to discover that a character is both strong AND female.

However I understand that perhaps this seems a little over-sensitive. I know I can come across that way!

Well, I guess I can understand your point of view, since I do know the other side of the medal, to be honest. "Very emotional", as in openly expressing feelings, showing joy or tears is also a deviation from the norm, if you have this trait as a male. But I'm used to the mockings.

Modifié par Merci357, 23 avril 2011 - 08:26 .

[DrFumb1ezX]

JohnEpler wrote...

Tone down the rhetoric and hostility on both sides, folks, or I'll be locking this thread.

Ya heard him folks, stay on topic.

Rule #1 of Philosophy: For every philosopher, there is an equal and opposite philosopher
Rule #2 of Philosophy: They're both wrong.:happy:

Modifié par soccerchick, 23 avril 2011 - 08:27 .

[Seena]

Sen4lifE wrote...

Maybe it would be helpful if I restate the original post, since all you want to do is find the absence of what is said and twist it into the existence of something else.

I find it a pattern, whether coincidence or intended, that women are often placed at high authority in BioWare's literature. It could simply be the inspiration of the writer, their culture, location, political views, or it could just be an nonexistent pattern.

My examples are:

The Asari. A race of females who are responsible for the productivity of the entire galaxy and are by far the strongest of all council races.

Knight-Commander Meredith. Despite the viscount being a male, he is only a puppet.

The Chantry is upheld as the most powerful entity in Thedas. It is predominately controlled by females.

It is interesting and seems like a pattern. What really makes it interesting is that, even a BioWare writer mentioned that the human race typically views males as a dominant power.

It's interesting, and it could be unbiasism or reverse-biasism. I think it's the former. While many of their writing incorporates political aspects, I think BioWare is just generally open minded about other matters than just feminism, but feminism included.

I do think it adds more characteristics to their writing. I believe it allows for more in-depth, less limited story telling and allows for a real view of an actual "alternate world." I have mentioned before, not just in this thread, that I support those kind of things. Not for the fanbase themselves necessarily, but that it really gives more ways that the story could go.

It's interesting. Hence the name of this thread, "An Interesting Thought"

The "tone" of this post - is a 180 degree turn about from your OP.

[Medhia Nox]

@Sen4lifE : I think it's just to be "original".

[Sen4lifE]

Seena wrote...

Sen4lifE wrote...


And I never said anything negative, did I? 

I would say that simply questioning Bioware's decision - without specifically SUPPORTING it (which you have not - at all, despite your backpeddling)  is, by default,  having a "problem" with it.   I mean,  why question it. if you were 100% ok with it?

If you want I can pull some of your comments that had a pretty negative connotation  ---  if you really want to go there.

Defining a default is assuming.  I was mentioning that it's interesting that they portray this.  This is a forum for feedback.  Maybe I liek it so I was bringing it up in the forums for that exact reason?  This thread is not only for problems, it is for positive feedback, you realize this, yes?

I do not have to specifically define whether or not I support you.  You finding the absence of my support and automatically declaring it as negativity is assumption, trolling and just rather pathetic.  It shows you really just wantd an argument, not a conversation.  And thus, I stand by my "grow up" retort.

[DrFumb1ezX]

Seena wrote...

Sen4lifE wrote...

Maybe it would be helpful if I restate the original post, since all you want to do is find the absence of what is said and twist it into the existence of something else.

I find it a pattern, whether coincidence or intended, that women are often placed at high authority in BioWare's literature. It could simply be the inspiration of the writer, their culture, location, political views, or it could just be an nonexistent pattern.

My examples are:

The Asari. A race of females who are responsible for the productivity of the entire galaxy and are by far the strongest of all council races.

Knight-Commander Meredith. Despite the viscount being a male, he is only a puppet.

The Chantry is upheld as the most powerful entity in Thedas. It is predominately controlled by females.

It is interesting and seems like a pattern. What really makes it interesting is that, even a BioWare writer mentioned that the human race typically views males as a dominant power.

It's interesting, and it could be unbiasism or reverse-biasism. I think it's the former. While many of their writing incorporates political aspects, I think BioWare is just generally open minded about other matters than just feminism, but feminism included.

I do think it adds more characteristics to their writing. I believe it allows for more in-depth, less limited story telling and allows for a real view of an actual "alternate world." I have mentioned before, not just in this thread, that I support those kind of things. Not for the fanbase themselves necessarily, but that it really gives more ways that the story could go.

It's interesting. Hence the name of this thread, "An Interesting Thought"

The "tone" of this post - is a 180 degree turn about from your OP.

/facepalm
Seriously? John Epler just said to stop arguing and you are still gonna do it? Come on... We are better than that.

[Seena]

Sen4lifE wrote...

Seena wrote...

Sen4lifE wrote...


And I never said anything negative, did I? 

I would say that simply questioning Bioware's decision - without specifically SUPPORTING it (which you have not - at all, despite your backpeddling)  is, by default,  having a "problem" with it.   I mean,  why question it. if you were 100% ok with it?

If you want I can pull some of your comments that had a pretty negative connotation  ---  if you really want to go there.

Defining a default is assuming.  I was mentioning that it's interesting that they portray this.  This is a forum for feedback.  Maybe I liek it so I was bringing it up in the forums for that exact reason?  This thread is not only for problems, it is for positive feedback, you realize this, yes?

I do not have to specifically define whether or not I support you.  You finding the absence of my support and automatically declaring it as negativity is assumption, trolling and just rather pathetic.  It shows you really just wantd an argument, not a conversation.  And thus, I stand by my "grow up" retort.

Your first post was absent any suggestion of "positive"  - your re-writing of said post is in keeping with what you now state.

[Maria Caliban]

Seena wrote...

The "tone" of this post - is a 180 degree turn about from your OP.

Would you please stop?

[Sen4lifE]

Seena wrote...

Sen4lifE wrote...

Maybe it would be helpful if I restate the original post, since all you want to do is find the absence of what is said and twist it into the existence of something else.

I find it a pattern, whether coincidence or intended, that women are often placed at high authority in BioWare's literature. It could simply be the inspiration of the writer, their culture, location, political views, or it could just be an nonexistent pattern.

My examples are:

The Asari. A race of females who are responsible for the productivity of the entire galaxy and are by far the strongest of all council races.

Knight-Commander Meredith. Despite the viscount being a male, he is only a puppet.

The Chantry is upheld as the most powerful entity in Thedas. It is predominately controlled by females.

It is interesting and seems like a pattern. What really makes it interesting is that, even a BioWare writer mentioned that the human race typically views males as a dominant power.

It's interesting, and it could be unbiasism or reverse-biasism. I think it's the former. While many of their writing incorporates political aspects, I think BioWare is just generally open minded about other matters than just feminism, but feminism included.

I do think it adds more characteristics to their writing. I believe it allows for more in-depth, less limited story telling and allows for a real view of an actual "alternate world." I have mentioned before, not just in this thread, that I support those kind of things. Not for the fanbase themselves necessarily, but that it really gives more ways that the story could go.

It's interesting. Hence the name of this thread, "An Interesting Thought"

The "tone" of this post - is a 180 degree turn about from your OP.

There is no tone, it is simply how you concieve it. You found that the absence of my words was implying what you say is a "180 degree turn" in "tone."  It was not.  You could have simply asked for elaboration rather than started an argument or attacked.

It is not my problem if you decide to find absence as hidden meaning, and thus I won't take responsibility for that.

[Medhia Nox]

So - is it somehow "more interesting" than if these institutions had been male oriented?

[Braindeer]

Merci357 wrote...

Braindeer wrote...

I take your point, and I agree with you in part. I just often find that gender is brought in to denote that a character is deviating from the assigned path, as in the example of a "strong female character". As if you should be surprised to discover that a character is both strong AND female.

However I understand that perhaps this seems a little over-sensitive. I know I can come across that way!

Well, I guess I can understand your point of view, since I do know the other side of the medal, to be honest. "Very emotional", as in openly expressing feelings, showing joy or tears is also a deviation from the norm, if you have this trait as a male. But I'm used to the mockings.

I totally get that - and I find it just as unacceptable as the women's side of things. Men suffer from this gender stereotyping just as much as women do, and I hate the fact that different emotions/interests/jobs are divided into gender categories - if you're a man, you have to do a, b or c, and if you're a woman, it's got to be d, e, or f. People are people. I wish the world could just take everyone as they are and not be so obsessed with whether they've got dangly bits or not!

[DrFumb1ezX]

This is starting to sound like Sebastian and Anders talk...

[Seena]

Sen4lifE wrote...


Defining a default is assuming.  I was mentioning that it's interesting that they portray this.  This is a forum for feedback.  Maybe I liek it so I was bringing it up in the forums for that exact reason?  This thread is not only for problems, it is for positive feedback, you realize this, yes?

I do not have to specifically define whether or not I support you.  You finding the absence of my support and automatically declaring it as negativity is assumption, trolling and just rather pathetic.  It shows you really just wantd an argument, not a conversation.  And thus, I stand by my "grow up" retort.

You have no one to blame for your ambiguity - but yourself.  You have retracted and backpeddled, in an attempt to cover your tracks.

It's just unfortunate that your rewriting of your OP wasn't the actual OP - which just may be more back peddling.

[Sen4lifE]

soccerchick wrote...

Seena wrote...

Sen4lifE wrote...

Maybe it would be helpful if I restate the original post, since all you want to do is find the absence of what is said and twist it into the existence of something else.

I find it a pattern, whether coincidence or intended, that women are often placed at high authority in BioWare's literature. It could simply be the inspiration of the writer, their culture, location, political views, or it could just be an nonexistent pattern.

My examples are:

The Asari. A race of females who are responsible for the productivity of the entire galaxy and are by far the strongest of all council races.

Knight-Commander Meredith. Despite the viscount being a male, he is only a puppet.

The Chantry is upheld as the most powerful entity in Thedas. It is predominately controlled by females.

It is interesting and seems like a pattern. What really makes it interesting is that, even a BioWare writer mentioned that the human race typically views males as a dominant power.

It's interesting, and it could be unbiasism or reverse-biasism. I think it's the former. While many of their writing incorporates political aspects, I think BioWare is just generally open minded about other matters than just feminism, but feminism included.

I do think it adds more characteristics to their writing. I believe it allows for more in-depth, less limited story telling and allows for a real view of an actual "alternate world." I have mentioned before, not just in this thread, that I support those kind of things. Not for the fanbase themselves necessarily, but that it really gives more ways that the story could go.

It's interesting. Hence the name of this thread, "An Interesting Thought"

The "tone" of this post - is a 180 degree turn about from your OP.

/facepalm
Seriously? John Epler just said to stop arguing and you are still gonna do it? Come on... We are better than that.

Yes, if we could please get back on topic.  I stated in my original post, I do not mean to offend, if you feel you neel elaboration, visit my rewording.  I find BioWare an interesting producer, as they usually forget traditionalism and it makes for rather original pieces.

If anyone wants to add to that, please feel free. 

Just asking for speculation on that.

[Seena]

Braindeer wrote...


I totally get that - and I find it just as unacceptable as the women's side of things. Men suffer from this gender stereotyping just as much as women do, and I hate the fact that different emotions/interests/jobs are divided into gender categories - if you're a man, you have to do a, b or c, and if you're a woman, it's got to be d, e, or f. People are people. I wish the world could just take everyone as they are and not be so obsessed with whether they've got dangly bits or not!

ditto.

[Maria Caliban]

Medhia Nox wrote...

So - is it somehow "more interesting" than if these institutions had been male oriented?

Yes. The vast majority of pre-industrial fantasy has a patriarchal society as the writers base their works on medieval Europe. Pre-industrial fantasy fiction where the sexes are equal are still rare. Heck, it can even be argued that much contemporary fantasy has women in positions of power as a rarity.

[JabbaDaHutt30]

Braindeer wrote...

Seena, I literally love you. I agree with everything you've said in this thread.

On to the topic at hand...

The thing I'm wondering is why it seems so unusual for women to be in positions of power that it is causing so much consternation amongst forum-goers. I prefer to see people as individuals, not examples of their gender. Therefore, Meredith is a strong character, not a strong female character. Anora is a strong character, not a strong female character. By insterting their gender into the sentence it makes it seem like it's an unuasual trait. "She's strong...for a woman".

You wouldn't say "a strong male character", would you?

It also worries me that Bioware are seen as being spectacularly open-minded because they cast women in important roles. Like...woah. Subversive.

In various mediums of entertainment, there are a few common tropes that portray women ( or men ) in certain ways. Tropes like "women in refridgerators" were a recurring cliche in comic books ( from what I understand; I'm not familiar with this medium so much ), with women often being killed off in dramatic ways to force a reaction out of the main character/superhero.

Women can also be used in a more general sense to get sympathy out of the viewer, etc. I'm sure you get the idea.

It's not about women's actual capabilities, but how they tend to be portrayed in the gaming medium that the OP requested to be discussed in this thread, from what I understand. Claiming that people are "consternated" because they find it unusual/refreshing for women to be portrayed in such roles, is a bit on the straw man side of the argument, no?

Then again, I'm sure that feminists would find no problem jumping the gun over technicalities, no matter how reasonable one tries to appear when arguing. 

Modifié par JabbaDaHutt30, 23 avril 2011 - 08:54 .

[TUHD]

soccerchick wrote...

This is starting to sound like Sebastian and Anders talk...

+1....

[Sen4lifE]

Medhia Nox wrote...

So - is it somehow "more interesting" than if these institutions had been male oriented?

A little.  Depends who was writing it, really.

Again, like I said, humanity is often plagued by their stereotypical view of male dominance.


And, you can call it backpeddling if you want.  But I am not contradicting myself.  I can not contradict myself if the material was absent.  You simply assumed what wasn't there and it is contradictory to your words, not mine.  That is not backpeddling, that is elaborating.  Just because you were wrong about what I was trying to imply does not mean I was scrambling to correct myself: you merely assumed and were wrong.  Like it or not.

[DrFumb1ezX]

Sen4lifE wrote...

soccerchick wrote...

Seena wrote...

Sen4lifE wrote...

Maybe it would be helpful if I restate the original post, since all you want to do is find the absence of what is said and twist it into the existence of something else.

I find it a pattern, whether coincidence or intended, that women are often placed at high authority in BioWare's literature. It could simply be the inspiration of the writer, their culture, location, political views, or it could just be an nonexistent pattern.

My examples are:

The Asari. A race of females who are responsible for the productivity of the entire galaxy and are by far the strongest of all council races.

Knight-Commander Meredith. Despite the viscount being a male, he is only a puppet.

The Chantry is upheld as the most powerful entity in Thedas. It is predominately controlled by females.

It is interesting and seems like a pattern. What really makes it interesting is that, even a BioWare writer mentioned that the human race typically views males as a dominant power.

It's interesting, and it could be unbiasism or reverse-biasism. I think it's the former. While many of their writing incorporates political aspects, I think BioWare is just generally open minded about other matters than just feminism, but feminism included.

I do think it adds more characteristics to their writing. I believe it allows for more in-depth, less limited story telling and allows for a real view of an actual "alternate world." I have mentioned before, not just in this thread, that I support those kind of things. Not for the fanbase themselves necessarily, but that it really gives more ways that the story could go.

It's interesting. Hence the name of this thread, "An Interesting Thought"

The "tone" of this post - is a 180 degree turn about from your OP.

/facepalm
Seriously? John Epler just said to stop arguing and you are still gonna do it? Come on... We are better than that.

Yes, if we could please get back on topic.  I stated in my original post, I do not mean to offend, if you feel you neel elaboration, visit my rewording.  I find BioWare an interesting producer, as they usually forget traditionalism and it makes for rather original pieces.

If anyone wants to add to that, please feel free. 

Just asking for speculation on that.

There we go. Don't you feel better now?
...
Still gonna ask Santa for that Mute remote. Able to mute anyone, anything! Now in 3 colors! 

[Maria Caliban]

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...

In various mediums of entertainment, there are a few common tropes that portray women ( or men ) in certain ways. Tropes like "women in refrigerators" were a recurring cliche in comic books ( from what I understand; I'm not familiar with this medium so much ), with women often being killed off in dramatic ways to force a reaction out of the main character/superhero.

Women can also be used in a more general sense to get sympathy out of the viewer, etc. I'm sure you get the idea.

It's not about women's actual capabilities, but how they tend to be portrayed in the gaming medium that the OP requested to be discussed in this thread, from what I understand. Claiming that people are "consternated" because they find it unusual/refreshing for women to be portrayed in such roles, is a bit on the straw man side of the argument, no?

I agree with this.

Then again, I'm sure that feminists would find no problem jumping the gun over technicalities, no matter how reasonable one tries to appear when arguing. 

Why did you ruin a perfectly good post by being an ****?