122 réponses à ce sujet

[hoorayforicecream]

Maria Caliban wrote...

It's night. The chantry is closed. The only people there are members of the Chantry. 

This is the only thing that kind of bothers me. The Chantry, in addition to being the religious part of the organization that governs mages, also does charitable works for the common people. Poor, sick, needy people go to the Chantry, and they are given solace and help. It's why, for example, if Hawke rescues Orana but doesn't make her a servant, Leandra sends her to the Chantry. According to the Hierarchy of the Chantry,

a guide for ambassadors from Rivain. wrote...

Affirmed are the lay-brethren of the Chantry, those regular folk who have turned to the Chantry for succor. Often they are people who have led a difficult or irreligious life and have chosen to go into  seclusion, or even orphans and similar unfortunates who were raised into the Chantry life. The Affirmed take care of the Chantry and are in turn afforded a life of quiet contemplation, no questions asked.

It never sat well with me when Anders blew up the Chantry, because of people like this who we can expect were there.

[Ryzaki]

...So there might have been children inside that chantry when it went boom?

[hoorayforicecream]

Ryzaki wrote...
 
...So there might have been children inside that chantry when it went boom?

Might have been. We don't know. However, the Redcliffe Chantry had refugees staying in it in DA:O. There's even a quest to find a young woman's little brother and bring him back to the Chantry where they are staying.

[Ryzaki]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
 
...So there might have been children inside that chantry when it went boom?

Might have been. We don't know. However, the Redcliffe Chantry had refugees staying in it in DA:O. There's even a quest to find a young woman's little brother and bring him back to the Chantry where they are staying.

I mean I know it's horrible but it's nice to know the chantry blowing up doesn't have a moral high ground vs the mages being killed by the templars. 

That said that *was* during a emergency. Though I guess refugee children would be in similar scenarios. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 23 avril 2011 - 08:17 .

[Maria Caliban]

I started a thread previously asking if children were killed in the Kirkwall Annulment but it was never answered. BioWare seems to be showing atrocities in a water-down form.

[Ryzaki]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I started a thread previously asking if children were killed in the Kirkwall Annulment but it was never answered. BioWare seems to be showing atrocities in a water-down form.

Bah. :/ 

I'll just assume both sides do their share of child killing then. 

[hoorayforicecream]

Ryzaki wrote...

I mean I know it's horrible but it's nice to know the chantry blowing up doesn't have a moral high ground vs the mages being killed by the templars. 

That said that *was* during a emergency. Though I guess refugee children would be in similar scenarios. 

One could argue that anyone in the chantry as an Accepted was complicit in all of their dealings and affairs, and thus not innocent. It's the contractors on the Death Star debate... but a bit murkier, since it's hard to qualify the entire Chantry as a giant death machine. Well, it is for some people anyway...

Maria Caliban wrote...

I started a thread previously  asking if children were killed in the Kirkwall Annulment but it was  never answered. BioWare seems to be showing atrocities in a water-down  form.

It's fairly typical in games though. I can't think of too many games or studios in the past that didn't water down atrocities.

Modifié par hoorayforicecream, 23 avril 2011 - 08:32 .

[Ryzaki]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

I mean I know it's horrible but it's nice to know the chantry blowing up doesn't have a moral high ground vs the mages being killed by the templars. 

That said that *was* during a emergency. Though I guess refugee children would be in similar scenarios. 

One could argue that anyone in the chantry as an Accepted was complicit in all of their dealings and affairs, and thus not innocent. It's the contractors on the Death Star debate... but a bit murkier, since it's hard to qualify the entire Chantry as a giant death machine. Well, it is for some people anyway...

So...following that logic. A poor kid who just wants shelther is responsible for a mage being turned tranquil illegally to Justice? 

Talk about Justice being blind.  

Modifié par Ryzaki, 23 avril 2011 - 08:34 .

[hoorayforicecream]

Ryzaki wrote...

So...following that logic. A poor kid who just wants shelther is responsible for a mage being turned tranquil illegally to Justice? 

Talk about Justice being blind.  

As my old chemistry teacher liked to say: If you aren't part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

[mesmerizedish]

Your chemistry teacher was a giganimous dork-face.

[hoorayforicecream]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Your chemistry teacher was a giganimous dork-face.

Yup! That's one of the reasons I became a giganimous dork-face.

Modifié par hoorayforicecream, 23 avril 2011 - 08:40 .

[HippeusOmega]

I knew this would start a nice debate rofl. I know its wrong to use the demon for personal gain hence why i usually only do it with my Mages. However what about all the lives lost by Anders inciting this civil war. I know this war has been a long time coming but still. Anders still doesn't have a right to critcize how my mage or merril conduct magic.

Edit: Besides what is to say Feyneril didn't die during the massacre of mages at the end?

Modifié par Panznerr, 23 avril 2011 - 08:47 .

[TJPags]

Ryzaki wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
 
...So there might have been children inside that chantry when it went boom?

Might have been. We don't know. However, the Redcliffe Chantry had refugees staying in it in DA:O. There's even a quest to find a young woman's little brother and bring him back to the Chantry where they are staying.

I mean I know it's horrible but it's nice to know the chantry blowing up doesn't have a moral high ground vs the mages being killed by the templars. 

That said that *was* during a emergency. Though I guess refugee children would be in similar scenarios. 

But in Orzamar, if you help Berkel set up the Chantry, you can send a casteless dwarf there to live.

So I tend to think it does house some homeless/sick/down on their luck types often.  And a large Chantry, perhaps more often.

[HippeusOmega]

Is it worth selling the kids soul for the reward though as a player?

[TJPags]

Panznerr wrote...

I knew this would start a nice debate rofl. I know its wrong to use the demon for personal gain hence why i usually only do it with my Mages. However what about all the lives lost by Anders inciting this civil war. I know this war has been a long time coming but still. Anders still doesn't have a right to critcize how my mage or merril conduct magic.

Edit: Besides what is to say Feyneril didn't die during the massacre of mages at the end?

Anders also doesn't have the right to make decisions for every mage in every circle. 

[Maria Caliban]

Panznerr wrote...

Is it worth selling the kids soul for the reward though as a player?

From a practical perspective, Torpor gives the best reward that quest offers.

I mean, Merethari gives you an ancient Elven book that goes into your junk tab and is worth 2 silver.

hoorayforicecream wrote...

As my old chemistry teacher liked to say: If you aren't part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

I giggled.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 23 avril 2011 - 09:01 .

[MikoDoll]

Ryzaki wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

I can't believe I'm defending Anders...

Justice being against you giving Fandreyl to Torpor and Anders/Justice blowing up the Chantry isn't an example of him being a hypocrite, or even inconsistent in his beliefs.

You would sacrifice an innocent for your own ambition!

Isn't hypocritical with what he does latter...how exactly? He sacrificed an innocent to start a war. To free the mages was his goal. It being more noble doesn't stop the fact that he sacrificed an innocent for his ambition. 

Eh. My problem with it, is that the people he killed he did not really see as innocent to start. The Chantry twisted the words of Andraste in his mind, to mean the imprisoning of mages. They were the ones that ran the templar order that oppressed mages. The Grand Cleric, nor any members of the Chantry were really trying to stop this growing problem. Compare that to Feynriel, a boy that did nothing so wrong as to deserve being handed over to a demon. "Anders" destroyed the "chance" at compromise because he didn't think there was going to be any. Meredith was becoming more neurotic and taking more rights away from mages with no probable cause, the Chantry refused to do anything and the templars simply followed her orders. Orsino was in no authority to stop her either. Chantry also blew up at night, so no civilians should've been there IIRC. Second, Anders never acted with the intention of harming innocents nor knew of any specific individuals that'd be harmed in his actions, whereas if Hawke decides to hand Feynriel over, they are actively trying to harm a specific innocent individual for their own gain. I don't really see the hypocrisy.

Modifié par MikoDoll, 23 avril 2011 - 09:08 .

[Ryzaki]

MikoDoll there are far more than chantry members in that building. There are priests there, people who live there (according to Leliana she lived in the Chantry) those are innocents. They had nothing to do with anything.

[HippeusOmega]

MikoDoll wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

I can't believe I'm defending Anders...

Justice being against you giving Fandreyl to Torpor and Anders/Justice blowing up the Chantry isn't an example of him being a hypocrite, or even inconsistent in his beliefs.

You would sacrifice an innocent for your own ambition!

Isn't hypocritical with what he does latter...how exactly? He sacrificed an innocent to start a war. To free the mages was his goal. It being more noble doesn't stop the fact that he sacrificed an innocent for his ambition. 

Eh. My problem with it, is that the people he killed he did not really see as innocent to start. The Chantry twisted the words of Andraste in his mind, to mean the imprisoning of mages. They were the ones that ran the templar order that oppressed mages. The Grand Cleric, nor any members of the Chantry were really trying to stop this growing problem. Compare that to Feynriel, a boy that did nothing so wrong as to deserve being handed over to a demon. "Anders" destroyed the "chance" at compromise because he didn't think there was going to be any. Meredith was becoming more neurotic and taking more rights away from mages with no probable cause, the Chantry refused to do anything and the templars simply followed her orders. Orsino was in no authority to stop her either. Chantry also blew up at night, so no civilians should've been there IIRC. Second, Anders never acted with the intention of harming innocents nor knew of any specific individuals that'd be harmed in his actions, whereas if Hawke decides to hand Feynriel over, they are actively trying to harm a specific innocent individual for their own gain. I don't really see the hypocrisy.

Not the first time a church has lied in the game. Anyone remember the Zodiac Story in Final Fantasy Tactics where it was more convient in history to label Ramza as a heretic? Anyhow i'll debate about sacrficing fey. Cause i've had been playing a saint character even though i'm a blood mage.

[Aggie Punbot]

Ryzaki wrote...

So...following that logic. A poor kid who just wants shelther is responsible for a mage being turned tranquil illegally to Justice? 

Talk about Justice being blind.  

Welcome to the messy world that is dealing with spirits, Ryzaki. As Isabela so aptly put it, justice is an idea that works perfectly in a world of ideas but not so well in our own.

[tonnactus]

Yes,anders is a hypocrite,but not because of that.Judging merill for bloodmagic while self being possesed with a demon that he couldnt control...

[thesuperdarkone]

I remember someone saying that Feynriel is somewhere far away, nowhere to be seen if you give him to the demon. Not to mention that he makes several guards attack people for no reason and drives them to insanity. So basically, you made Freddy Kreuger and a reality warper. It'll be a Redcliffe all over again and it'll be your fault. If you see Anders rivalry ending, you see that it is Vengeance, not Anders that wants to blow up the Chantry. So the blame lies on Vengeance himself for corrupting Anders

[Joy Divison]

Panznerr wrote...

I beaten the game already as a Warrior. But yeah Anders is a hypocrite and a traitor. Least i had more respect for Loghain. I mean how do u not walk away with another +6 attributes or skills? Not to mention Justice is just as bad as a demon bonded to Anders.

As much as I try to role play "bad" Hawkes, I still feel sick to my stomach when the demon possesses that kid.

[Rifneno]

1.  Justice being a demon now is conjecture, nothing more.
2.  Given what the keeper says about dreamers, handing him to that demon will probably cost far more lives than were lost in the Chantry bombing.
3.  Anders did it to trigger a rebellion that would end 1,000 years of oppression and readily accepted the death penalty for doing so.  Hawke, well your Hawke, does it for a few measly attributes and then whines about it when people judge him for it.

[Ryzaki]

Rifneno wrote...

1.  Justice being a demon now is conjecture, nothing more.
2.  Given what the keeper says about dreamers, handing him to that demon will probably cost far more lives than were lost in the Chantry bombing.
3.  Anders did it to trigger a rebellion that would end 1,000 years of oppression and readily accepted the death penalty for doing so.  Hawke, well your Hawke, does it for a few measly attributes and then whines about it when people judge him for it.

1. Anders flat out calls him a demon in the rivalry path (the bugged ending). 

2 & 3 I'm not gonna argue but one. Justice is a demon.