122 réponses à ce sujet

[Rifneno]

Ryzaki wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

1.  Justice being a demon now is conjecture, nothing more.
2.  Given what the keeper says about dreamers, handing him to that demon will probably cost far more lives than were lost in the Chantry bombing.
3.  Anders did it to trigger a rebellion that would end 1,000 years of oppression and readily accepted the death penalty for doing so.  Hawke, well your Hawke, does it for a few measly attributes and then whines about it when people judge him for it.

1. Anders flat out calls him a demon in the rivalry path (the bugged ending). 

2 & 3 I'm not gonna argue but one. Justice is a demon. 

Since neither Anders nor Justice knows what "makes demons as they are" or even if it's possible for a spirit to become a demon (Chantry fairy tales aside), I'd say that holds little weight.

[Peter Klasson]

Anders has to die, sorry but that's just the way it is. He is a terrorist.

[Ryzaki]

Rifneno wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

1.  Justice being a demon now is conjecture, nothing more.
2.  Given what the keeper says about dreamers, handing him to that demon will probably cost far more lives than were lost in the Chantry bombing.
3.  Anders did it to trigger a rebellion that would end 1,000 years of oppression and readily accepted the death penalty for doing so.  Hawke, well your Hawke, does it for a few measly attributes and then whines about it when people judge him for it.

1. Anders flat out calls him a demon in the rivalry path (the bugged ending). 

2 & 3 I'm not gonna argue but one. Justice is a demon. 

Since neither Anders nor Justice knows what "makes demons as they are" or even if it's possible for a spirit to become a demon (Chantry fairy tales aside), I'd say that holds little weight.

Considering Anders is the one possessed. I'll take his word over yours.  Let's not even go into the assuming direct control Justice does. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 23 avril 2011 - 10:39 .

[thesuperdarkone]

Peter Klasson wrote...

Anders has to die, sorry but that's just the way it is. He is a terrorist.

 

You added so much to this discussion  P.S. Always spare Anders!

Hope all those attribute points were worth releasing Freddy Kreugar into the world

[Rifneno]

Ryzaki wrote...
Considering Anders is the one possessed. I'll take his word over yours.  Let's not even go into the assuming direct control Justice does. 

I'm not making a point in hopes you'll take my word.  I certainly don't care about the opinion of anyone that whines when companions judge them for releasing a demon of unparalleled power into the world.  I was simply starting facts based on what the two of them say to each other in DAA.

[Isaidlunch]

I feel this is relevant:

• Anders: Are you saying that you could become a demon, Justice?
• Justice: I said no such thing.
• Anders: You said that demons were spirits perverted by their desires.
• Justice: I have no such desires.
• Anders: You must have some desires...
• Justice: I have none! Desist your questions!

That seems like a pretty accurate description of what makes a demon.

[Rifneno]

Kazanth wrote...

I feel this is relevant:
[*]Anders: Are you saying that you could become a demon, Justice?
[*]Justice: I said no such thing.
[*]Anders: You said that demons were spirits perverted by their desires.
[*]Justice: I have no such desires.
[*]Anders: You must have some desires...
Justice: I have none! Desist your questions!

That seems like a pretty accurate description of what makes a demon.

Odd that you'd omit the followup conversation.

Anders: I apologize, Justice. I didn't mean to suggest you would become a demon.
Justice: I should certainly hope not.
Anders: I just wondered what relation there is between spirits and demons. Demons are a worry to any mage.
Justice: I do not know what makes demons as they are. Such evil angers me, but I do not understand it.
Anders: Well, I hope you never come to understand.
Justice: I as well, mage. More than you could possibly know.

[Isaidlunch]

Bad wording on my part. If a demon can be recognized by being a spirit
perverted by their desires then Anders would be able to tell what
Justice has become. The actual process of a spirit becoming a demon
(which is what your quote is about) isn't important. From what Justice
said, he knows what a demon is but can't comprehend how one could become
one.

Modifié par Kazanth, 23 avril 2011 - 10:56 .

[Maria Caliban]

Rifneno wrote...

Since neither Anders nor Justice knows what "makes demons as they are" or even if it's possible for a spirit to become a demon (Chantry fairy tales aside), I'd say that holds little weight.

According to David, a demon is a spirit that feeds on baser concepts or emotions.

Justice cannot be a demon, but Vengeance can.

[TJPags]

Rifneno wrote...

Kazanth wrote...

I feel this is relevant:

[*]Anders: Are you saying that you could become a demon, Justice?

[*]Justice: I said no such thing.

[*]Anders: You said that demons were spirits perverted by their desires.

[*]Justice: I have no such desires.
Anders: You must have some desires...
Justice: I have none! Desist your questions!

That seems like a pretty accurate description of what makes a demon.

Odd that you'd omit the followup conversation.

Anders: I apologize, Justice. I didn't mean to suggest you would become a demon.
Justice: I should certainly hope not.
Anders: I just wondered what relation there is between spirits and demons. Demons are a worry to any mage.
[/i][i]Justice: I do not know what makes demons as they are. Such evil angers me, but I do not understand it.
Anders: Well, I hope you never come to understand.
Justice: I as well, mage. More than you could possibly know.

Here's how I read those 2 conversations:

Justice believes that demons are spirits perverted by their desires . . .driven to fulfill them at any cost, including possession or destruction of people.  He does not know WHY they become perverted that way, however.

He also believes that he has no such desires to become perverted, and thus is safe from that trap.

IMO, he's proven wrong after spending some time around people and in the world, and/or in Anders.

[HippeusOmega]

As a player i want the bonus especially since my Blood Mage needs every attribute point but as a blood mage that has put mages first and fought/killed templars for the sake of other mages like Anders does. I can't do it. I can't sacrfice a innocent teenager for personal gain or i would be no different then the Necromancer Blood Mage that kills our mother in the game.

Edit: Thanks for setting a good blood mage straight. But i still don't know what i intend for Anders for the end of my mage playthrough. I let him live in the warrior file i did when i chose the mages. I just can't bring myself to side with templars. Mage hunter is gonna be the hardest trophy for me to unlock.

Modifié par Panznerr, 23 avril 2011 - 11:19 .

[TEWR]

Rifneno wrote...

1.  Justice being a demon now is conjecture, nothing more.
2.  Given what the keeper says about dreamers, handing him to that demon will probably cost far more lives than were lost in the Chantry bombing.
3.  Anders did it to trigger a rebellion that would end 1,000 years of oppression and readily accepted the death penalty for doing so.  Hawke, well your Hawke, does it for a few measly attributes and then whines about it when people judge him for it.

THIS. If he really was a demon (I agree with Merrill's view, but for discussion purposes I separate them so it's easier) I don't think he would've had such a problem with dealing with Torpor.

I think he's still a "good" spirit (as opposed to being a demon) because Vengeance is the darker side of Justice, but still a virtue of what's good.

Vengeance and Justice are two sides of the same coin. The only difference being that one side of the coin is a deeper shade.

edit: or even that Vengeance is a demon spirit, but it's become intertwined with the spirit of Justice instead of being the whole spirit, so he isn't good or evil. Just.... very..... misguided.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 23 avril 2011 - 11:21 .

[HippeusOmega]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

1.  Justice being a demon now is conjecture, nothing more.
2.  Given what the keeper says about dreamers, handing him to that demon will probably cost far more lives than were lost in the Chantry bombing.
3.  Anders did it to trigger a rebellion that would end 1,000 years of oppression and readily accepted the death penalty for doing so.  Hawke, well your Hawke, does it for a few measly attributes and then whines about it when people judge him for it.

THIS. If he really was a demon (I agree with Merrill's view, but for discussion purposes I separate them so it's easier) I don't think he would've had such a problem with dealing with Torpor.

I think he's still a "good" spirit (as opposed to being a demon) because Vengeance is the darker side of Justice, but still a virtue of what's good.

Vengeance and Justice are two sides of the same coin. The only difference being that one side of the coin is a deeper shade.

Thats the problem with DAII. There is no good or evil but shades of grey.

[Slugwood]

^ Interestingly, shades of grey are often seen as a positive...

[TEWR]

that's why I love the game. Nothing is certain.

■Merrill: You really believe don't you?
■Anders: What are we talking about?
■Merrill: Believing. You do I can tell, in freedom, in mages, in good spirits and bad templars. With more fire than the sun.
■Anders: And your point is?
■Merrill: I miss it sometimes, things being certain.
■Anders: Some things are certain.
■Merrill: Not anymore.

[Ryzaki]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

1.  Justice being a demon now is conjecture, nothing more.
2.  Given what the keeper says about dreamers, handing him to that demon will probably cost far more lives than were lost in the Chantry bombing.
3.  Anders did it to trigger a rebellion that would end 1,000 years of oppression and readily accepted the death penalty for doing so.  Hawke, well your Hawke, does it for a few measly attributes and then whines about it when people judge him for it.

THIS. If he really was a demon (I agree with Merrill's view, but for discussion purposes I separate them so it's easier) I don't think he would've had such a problem with dealing with Torpor.

I think he's still a "good" spirit (as opposed to being a demon) because Vengeance is the darker side of Justice, but still a virtue of what's good.

Vengeance and Justice are two sides of the same coin. The only difference being that one side of the coin is a deeper shade.

edit: or even that Vengeance is a demon spirit, but it's become intertwined with the spirit of Justice instead of being the whole spirit, so he isn't good or evil. Just.... very..... misguided.

Unless of course he didn't want to think of himself as being the same and wanted to destroy the mirror that showed him what he was. 

[Realmzmaster]

Justice is called a spirit because he is suppose to embody that "virtue" of humanity. Demons are called demons because they embody the negative side of humanity (rage etc). Merrill hits on the head when she says all spirits are dangerous. She knows this. It was to bad Anders did not.
Many things can be said about Merrill but she knew how dangerous the creatures of the fade (Spirit and demons) can be.
Justice without control becomes vengeance. At the end Anders comes to the realization that Justice is no longer the friend he thought he knew. Justice the longer he is out of his native environment and part of Anders becomes a twisted version of himself to the point there are no innocents.
Is Anders hypocritical? No he is not, because Anders/Justice no longer knows where Anders ends and Justice (Vengeance) begins. Emotions are not logical. Justice is not logical. Justice depends on Anders for control. Anders hate of all things templar and Chantry twists Justice.
Justice sees Hawke dealing with a creature he deems a threat to all that Justice stands.
Justice sees Anders cause as just, because he can only see it through Anders eyes and hate.

[Rifneno]

*sigh*  Remember that mage possessed by a demon that stood by and let you knife him?  Me neither. 

[HippeusOmega]

Slugwood wrote...

^ Interestingly, shades of grey are often seen as a positive...

Well even though i'm gonna do the saint ending for Night Terrors still not gonna condone a Abomination blowing up a chantry. Merril maybe navie in the powers of Blood magic and my Hawke mage can control its power but least we don't go killing ppl to incite a war. I've only killed templars in defense or protecting mages. Perhaps that could be counted as the same as Anders but personally in this game he just pisses me off more then Loghain ever could and Loghain had all those at Ostagar slaughtered but we found out his men wouldn't have made a difference.

Modifié par Panznerr, 23 avril 2011 - 11:30 .

[Ryzaki]

Rifneno wrote...

*sigh*  Remember that mage possessed by a demon that stood by and let you knife him?  Me neither.

 

Considering Justice (or rather Vengeance) thought turnabout was fairplay in that scenario it stands to reason it would allow its host to be killed.  Not only that but its fulfilled its purpose. (The same reason Vengeance doesn't fight Hawke's murder knife on the rivalry path). Vengeance's purpose wasn't too stay int he mortal world. He desired mages be free. Nothing more nothing less. 

You can't kill Vengeance. The only person you kill is Anders. Vengeance can either find a new host or reanimate Anders' body. 

And Vengeance can't be forced back into the fade. 

So all he has to do is find a new host and the process begins all over again. 



Also last I checked it was demons that took over their hosts bodies without permission. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 23 avril 2011 - 11:31 .

[HippeusOmega]

Ryzaki wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

*sigh*  Remember that mage possessed by a demon that stood by and let you knife him?  Me neither.

 

Considering Justice (or rather Vengeance) thought turnabout was fairplay in that scenario it stands to reason it would allow its host to be killed.  Not only that but its fulfilled its purpose. (The same reason Vengeance doesn't fight Hawke's murder knife on the rivalry path). Vengeance's purpose wasn't too stay int he mortal world. He desired mages be free. Nothing more nothing less. 

You can't kill Vengeance. The only person you kill is Anders. Vengeance can either find a new host or reanimate Anders' body. 

And Vengeance can't be forced back into the fade. 

So all he has to do is find a new host and the process begins all over again. 



Also last I checked it was demons that took over their hosts bodies without permission. 

At that point i would track down the new host and kill Vengenace again. Its his mess were cleaning up in Add-ons and Dragon Age III probably. But anyhow i think i'm done with this debate. Thanks guys for setting my mourning Blood Mage back on the path of righteous

Modifié par Panznerr, 23 avril 2011 - 11:34 .

[Rifneno]

Ryzaki wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

*sigh*  Remember that mage possessed by a demon that stood by and let you knife him?  Me neither.

 

Considering Justice (or rather Vengeance) thought turnabout was fairplay in that scenario it stands to reason it would allow its host to be killed.  Not only that but its fulfilled its purpose. (The same reason Vengeance doesn't fight Hawke's murder knife on the rivalry path). Vengeance's purpose wasn't too stay int he mortal world. He desired mages be free. Nothing more nothing less. 

You can't kill Vengeance. The only person you kill is Anders. Vengeance can either find a new host or reanimate Anders' body. 

And Vengeance can't be forced back into the fade. 

So all he has to do is find a new host and the process begins all over again. 



Also last I checked it was demons that took over their hosts bodies without permission. 

*facepalm*  Yes, he's a demon because he did something that takes place only in your hypothetical scenario.  Bravo, you've really shown me.

[Slugwood]

Panznerr wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

*sigh*  Remember that mage possessed by a demon that stood by and let you knife him?  Me neither.

 

Considering Justice (or rather Vengeance) thought turnabout was fairplay in that scenario it stands to reason it would allow its host to be killed.  Not only that but its fulfilled its purpose. (The same reason Vengeance doesn't fight Hawke's murder knife on the rivalry path). Vengeance's purpose wasn't too stay int he mortal world. He desired mages be free. Nothing more nothing less. 

You can't kill Vengeance. The only person you kill is Anders. Vengeance can either find a new host or reanimate Anders' body. 

And Vengeance can't be forced back into the fade. 

So all he has to do is find a new host and the process begins all over again. 



Also last I checked it was demons that took over their hosts bodies without permission. 

At that point i would track down the new host and kill Vengenace again. Its his mess were cleaning up in Add-ons and Dragon Age III probably. But anyhow i think i'm done with this debate. Thanks guys for setting my mourning Blood Mage back on the path of righteous

So, you'd just keep killing?  Seems to me in this situation it's better to let Anders live... that way, innocent future hosts won't be murdered without cause.

But of course, it's always more righteous to kill evil, even when you can't vanquish it. <_<

[HippeusOmega]

Slugwood wrote...

Panznerr wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

*sigh*  Remember that mage possessed by a demon that stood by and let you knife him?  Me neither.

 

Considering Justice (or rather Vengeance) thought turnabout was fairplay in that scenario it stands to reason it would allow its host to be killed.  Not only that but its fulfilled its purpose. (The same reason Vengeance doesn't fight Hawke's murder knife on the rivalry path). Vengeance's purpose wasn't too stay int he mortal world. He desired mages be free. Nothing more nothing less. 

You can't kill Vengeance. The only person you kill is Anders. Vengeance can either find a new host or reanimate Anders' body. 

And Vengeance can't be forced back into the fade. 

So all he has to do is find a new host and the process begins all over again. 



Also last I checked it was demons that took over their hosts bodies without permission. 

At that point i would track down the new host and kill Vengenace again. Its his mess were cleaning up in Add-ons and Dragon Age III probably. But anyhow i think i'm done with this debate. Thanks guys for setting my mourning Blood Mage back on the path of righteous

So, you'd just keep killing?  Seems to me in this situation it's better to let Anders live... that way, innocent future hosts won't be murdered without cause.

But of course, it's always more righteous to kill evil, even when you can't vanquish it. <_<

your right. better to lock anders away in a tower and beat him to death and then heal him with magic then rinse and repeat

[Ryzaki]

Rifneno wrote...
*facepalm*  Yes, he's a demon because he did something that takes place only in your hypothetical scenario.  Bravo, you've really shown me.

Oh? 

You mean you didn't play the rivalry romance and watch Justice take control over Anders without his permission?

Not my failing you missed that. It's kind of funny how you insist Justice *isn't* a demon despite evidence to the contrary (him being twisted by his own desire for justice that he ends up killing those he wants to protect, he ends up causing a war that may get even *more* of those he claims to want to protect killed, and he uses his friend who trusted him to do it). 

But let's ignore all that.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 23 avril 2011 - 11:51 .