122 réponses à ce sujet

[Rifneno]

Slugwood wrote...

So, you'd just keep killing?  Seems to me in this situation it's better to let Anders live... that way, innocent future hosts won't be murdered without cause.

But of course, it's always more righteous to kill evil, even when you can't vanquish it. <_<

I hate to take us off the path of Anders-based raging, but this is very reminiscent of the dilemma we get in Watcher's Keep in BG2.  Killing Demogorgon seems like the right decision, but in truth the safest route was to keep him imprisoned.  I wonder if that's intentional.  Hmm.

[HippeusOmega]

Ryzaki wrote...

Rifneno wrote...
*facepalm*  Yes, he's a demon because he did something that takes place only in your hypothetical scenario.  Bravo, you've really shown me.

Oh? 

You mean you didn't play the rivalry romance and watch Justice take control over Anders without his permission?

Not my failing you missed that. 

May try that on my pro-templar rogue playthrough for the Mage hunter trophy. Romanced both Isabella and Merril so far and have to say i like merril so far. Isabella its more about the sex at first.

[hoorayforicecream]

Rifneno wrote...

*facepalm*  Yes, he's a demon because he did something that takes place only in your hypothetical scenario.  Bravo, you've really shown me.

It's open to interpretation, but it's not that hypothetical.

[Rifneno]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

*facepalm*  Yes, he's a demon because he did something that takes place only in your hypothetical scenario.  Bravo, you've really shown me.

It's open to interpretation, but it's not that hypothetical.

Right, I forgot, Anders didn't merge with Justice willingly.  

[Ryzaki]

Panznerr wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Rifneno wrote...
*facepalm*  Yes, he's a demon because he did something that takes place only in your hypothetical scenario.  Bravo, you've really shown me.

Oh? 

You mean you didn't play the rivalry romance and watch Justice take control over Anders without his permission?

Not my failing you missed that. 

May try that on my pro-templar rogue playthrough for the Mage hunter trophy. Romanced both Isabella and Merril so far and have to say i like merril so far. Isabella its more about the sex at first.

Wait for the next patch. It's bugged so that you can't get his rivalry ending. (Or side with the templars without him refusing). Should be fixed in the next patch though.   

Edit: You *can* fuse willingly with a demon. That kind of was Conner's problem. The demon just didn't want to let go until the Warden gave it a boot to the head.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 23 avril 2011 - 11:56 .

[TEWR]

Ryzaki wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

1.  Justice being a demon now is conjecture, nothing more.
2.  Given what the keeper says about dreamers, handing him to that demon will probably cost far more lives than were lost in the Chantry bombing.
3.  Anders did it to trigger a rebellion that would end 1,000 years of oppression and readily accepted the death penalty for doing so.  Hawke, well your Hawke, does it for a few measly attributes and then whines about it when people judge him for it.

THIS. If he really was a demon (I agree with Merrill's view, but for discussion purposes I separate them so it's easier) I don't think he would've had such a problem with dealing with Torpor.

I think he's still a "good" spirit (as opposed to being a demon) because Vengeance is the darker side of Justice, but still a virtue of what's good.

Vengeance and Justice are two sides of the same coin. The only difference being that one side of the coin is a deeper shade.

edit: or even that Vengeance is a demon spirit, but it's become intertwined with the spirit of Justice instead of being the whole spirit, so he isn't good or evil. Just.... very..... misguided.

Unless of course he didn't want to think of himself as being the same and wanted to destroy the mirror that showed him what he was. 

So, Torpor is an Eluvian and Justice is rival Merrill? huh...


Maybe if it was a Rage Demon though what you said would make sense.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 24 avril 2011 - 12:37 .

[TEWR]

Peter Klasson wrote...

Anders has to die, sorry but that's just the way it is. He is a terrorist.

this discussion isn't about whether Anders should live or die.

Although I let him live because I prefer the poetic justice.

[Xilizhra]

Why has this suddenly become an issue about the mages and what happens as a result of Anders actions?

Because that's like every third topic here.

Also, Justice is totally in control in the Fade and has an extremely hardline stance about demons.

[EpicTragedy]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...
It's night. The chantry is closed. The only people there are members of the Chantry.

And in his mind all chantry people templars are otherwise are guilty?

Yes.

That doesn't matter. Fendryal is an innocent. The action only benefits Hawke directly. Even if Hawke plans to benefit others, there's no induction that this is only possible through dealing with a demon. 

I think that this is a case where definitions matter.

I don't think it's right to eat people. A vegetarian might say that I'm a hypocrite because cows, chicken, and pigs are people, but I eat meat.

I really can't see it that way. There were innocents in that Chantry no matter how much Justice says otherwise.

Right. But the discussion is whether Anders is hypocritical, not whether he's wrong.

If I say it's wrong to murder people but Christians aren't people so killing them is fine, I'm not being inconsistent or a hypocrite. I'm being immoral.

Just had to post because that actually is being a hypocrite.

You make the assumption that just because he believes christians aren't people that they aren't.

You hypothetically say it is wrong to murder people, but it's okay to murder christians because they aren't people. They are people though, whether you want to admit it or not, so it's both hypocritical and immoral. To believe otherwise is just to fall into a logical/psycholigical trap in order to try to justify one's unethical (or inconsistent) actions (or beliefs) as to make them more bearable to live with.

Also, aside from that hypothetical situation I think an argument made earlier is incorrect as well.

Someone mentioned that the Grand Cleric/chantry are not innocent, rather complicit. This would be entirely incorrect as the grand cleric "was" innocent.

If someone on the streets gets robbed in front of you and you choose to do nothing, you might be "allowing the action to occur" even though you could stop it, but you are not guilty of the crime, you are innocent. You might not have high ethical aspirations, but you're still innocent of any crimes. The grand cleric is innocent, unless she actually ordered innocent mages to be killed/punished, and there is no hint of such in the game, rather it hints that she is innocent.

Modifié par EpicTragedy, 24 avril 2011 - 01:51 .

[Myusha]

So let's compare the two results.

Justice: *makes Anders blow up the Chantry* Bwahaahha. I've incited a horrific war that will scar Thedas unlike ever known, where Mages will all be mere refugees and even people who never hated mages before will hunt them like dogs. Bwaahaahahhaa.

Three Years Ago

Justice: Yo, Hawke. Don't sell that elf kid's soul to this demon. You may gain superpowers to help all the people and MAGES in Kirkwall, which I'd LOVE, but you know, impossible super demon may just kill us all before that.

So.
Global War, versus Almost-Unkillable Super Abomination.
Justice took Global War, so for some reason I think the Abomination is REALLY REALLY bad.

Who do you choose? XD

[EpicTragedy]

Also, I thought Anders justice spirit turned into a vengeance spirit?

Why do people (not everyone, but some of you) keep referring to it as justice and not vengeance?

Modifié par EpicTragedy, 24 avril 2011 - 01:59 .

[EpicTragedy]

Ryzaki wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

*sigh*  Remember that mage possessed by a demon that stood by and let you knife him?  Me neither.

 

Considering Justice (or rather Vengeance) thought turnabout was fairplay in that scenario it stands to reason it would allow its host to be killed.  Not only that but its fulfilled its purpose. (The same reason Vengeance doesn't fight Hawke's murder knife on the rivalry path). Vengeance's purpose wasn't too stay int he mortal world. He desired mages be free. Nothing more nothing less. 

You can't kill Vengeance. The only person you kill is Anders. Vengeance can either find a new host or reanimate Anders' body. 

And Vengeance can't be forced back into the fade. 

So all he has to do is find a new host and the process begins all over again. 



Also last I checked it was demons that took over their hosts bodies without permission. 

Well you could travel into the fade and kill vengeance there, as his spirit form exists there regardless of anders, right?

Modifié par EpicTragedy, 24 avril 2011 - 02:00 .

[Rifneno]

EpicTragedy wrote...

Also, I thought Anders justice spirit turned into a vengeance spirit?

Why do people (not everyone, but some of you) keep referring to it as justice and not vengeance?

Because that's the name we knew him by.  It's not some protest that he's still pure and righteous, it's just that's the name we knew that character as.

[EpicTragedy]

Rifneno wrote...

EpicTragedy wrote...

Also, I thought Anders justice spirit turned into a vengeance spirit?

Why do people (not everyone, but some of you) keep referring to it as justice and not vengeance?

Because that's the name we knew him by.  It's not some protest that he's still pure and righteous, it's just that's the name we knew that character as.

in game they refer to it (justice) as transforming into vengeance don't they?

[Rifneno]

EpicTragedy wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

EpicTragedy wrote...

Also, I thought Anders justice spirit turned into a vengeance spirit?

Why do people (not everyone, but some of you) keep referring to it as justice and not vengeance?

Because that's the name we knew him by.  It's not some protest that he's still pure and righteous, it's just that's the name we knew that character as.

in game they refer to it (justice) as transforming into vengeance don't they?

Yes, Anders does.  Justice still refers to himself as "Justice" though as we see when we meet him in the Fade.  "I am Justice.  Anders has told you of me."  It's just a name. If he originally wanted to call himself Mrs. Robinson, we'd be doing that.

[EpicTragedy]

Rifneno wrote...

EpicTragedy wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

EpicTragedy wrote...

Also, I thought Anders justice spirit turned into a vengeance spirit?

Why do people (not everyone, but some of you) keep referring to it as justice and not vengeance?

Because that's the name we knew him by.  It's not some protest that he's still pure and righteous, it's just that's the name we knew that character as.

in game they refer to it (justice) as transforming into vengeance don't they?

Yes, Anders does.  Justice still refers to himself as "Justice" though as we see when we meet him in the Fade.  "I am Justice.  Anders has told you of me."  It's just a name. If he originally wanted to call himself Mrs. Robinson, we'd be doing that.

well yea but "justice" is obviously going to still refer to himself as "justice", not "vengeance" because he believes his so-called vengeance is actually justice

Modifié par EpicTragedy, 24 avril 2011 - 02:35 .

[Rifneno]

EpicTragedy wrote...

well yea but "justice" is obviously going to still refer to himself as "justice", not "vengeance" because he believes his so-called vengeance is actually justice

...

It's a name.  Just a name.  How many times must this be said?

[Plaintiff]

Rifneno wrote...

EpicTragedy wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

EpicTragedy wrote...

Also, I thought Anders justice spirit turned into a vengeance spirit?

Why do people (not everyone, but some of you) keep referring to it as justice and not vengeance?

Because that's the name we knew him by.  It's not some protest that he's still pure and righteous, it's just that's the name we knew that character as.

in game they refer to it (justice) as transforming into vengeance don't they?

Yes, Anders does.  Justice still refers to himself as "Justice" though as we see when we meet him in the Fade.  "I am Justice.  Anders has told you of me."  It's just a name. If he originally wanted to call himself Mrs. Robinson, we'd be doing that.

Just to add to that point: Justice calls himself Justice because he still perceives himself as such. Spirits do not embody positive traits, they try to emulate them based on what they witness humans doing. It's also very apparent that Justice has odd ideas about what his chosen virtue actually entails. In Awakening, he accused Anders of slavery because he kept Ser Pounce-A-Lot.

Justice doesn't call himself Vengeance because he doesn't see himself as vengeful. In his view, he's still dispensing justice.

[EpicTragedy]

Rifneno wrote...

EpicTragedy wrote...

well yea but "justice" is obviously going to still refer to himself as "justice", not "vengeance" because he believes his so-called vengeance is actually justice

...

It's a name.  Just a name.  How many times must this be said?

a name that implies a lot

there is a big difference between justice and vengeance, calling it justice is an attempt to justify what he did

it's vengeance and what he did was out of vengeance

[Rifneno]

Plaintiff wrote...
In Awakening, he accused Anders of slavery because he kept Ser Pounce-A-Lot.

They don't have anything similar to pets in the Fade though.  The mortal world is completely alien to him, he doesn't yet understand that it's a harmless creature of low intelligence and the relationship is helpful to the pet rather than one of servitude.  A good relationship with a pet is one where you're more of a mentor and caretaker.  Nothing in the Fade was like that so it's understandable he mistook it for slavery.  He doesn't ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL when Anders talks about getting another cat in DA2 so I assume he's since changed his stance.

[LobselVith8]

EpicTragedy wrote...

Someone mentioned that the Grand Cleric/chantry are not innocent, rather complicit. This would be entirely incorrect as the grand cleric "was" innocent.

If someone on the streets gets robbed in front of you and you choose to do nothing, you might be "allowing the action to occur" even though you could stop it, but you are not guilty of the crime, you are innocent. You might not have high ethical aspirations, but you're still innocent of any crimes. The grand cleric is innocent, unless she actually ordered innocent mages to be killed/punished, and there is no hint of such in the game, rather it hints that she is innocent.

This analogy ignores the fact that Grand Cleric Elthina was Meredith's superior as the highest ranking Chantry member in Kirkwall, and she didn't exorcise her authority despite being the abuse of power that happened in her organization. The abuses that transpired were allowed to happen because Elthina did nothing to stop them in spite of her authority as Grand Cleric, which makes her second only to Divine Justina V.

[Oneiropolos]

Oi. I'm not jumping into the Anders debate again because I've done too much of that. But about Justice/Vengeance name thing... Fenris chooses not to be called Leto despite discovering Leto is his real name. Isabella never tells you what her real name is. Anders isn't his name, it's a nickname because his family is from the Anderfels. We don't get to know the latter two's name.

In Dragon Age, a name apparently means -nothing-. (Though maybe we should have been tipped off to this fact by Flemmeth having like ten thousand names?)

[aftohsix]

..and this is why Anders always meets the murder knife.

[LobselVith8]

EpicTragedy wrote...

Rifneno wrote...
...
It's a name.  Just a name.  How many times must this be said?

a name that implies a lot
there is a big difference between justice and vengeance, calling it justice is an attempt to justify what he did
it's vengeance and what he did was out of vengeance

Is there indisputable proof that he's Vengence now, or are we addressing this because Anders assumes he is no longer Justice but Vengence? Since Anders admits to a certain ignorance of what's become of the Spirit when he describes the symbiosis he has with his ethereal companion, I don't see why you're so insistent on the term "Vengence."

Modifié par LobselVith8, 24 avril 2011 - 03:24 .

[TEWR]

EpicTragedy wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

EpicTragedy wrote...

well yea but "justice" is obviously going to still refer to himself as "justice", not "vengeance" because he believes his so-called vengeance is actually justice

...

It's a name.  Just a name.  How many times must this be said?

a name that implies a lot

there is a big difference between justice and vengeance, calling it justice is an attempt to justify what he did

it's vengeance and what he did was out of vengeance

it's only to make it easier. If people on the forums believe that all denizens of the Fade are the same, they might still refer to them as 'spirits' and 'demons' just to make it easier.

Calling him Justice is only done because that's the name we've grown accustomed to.