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[In Exile]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Because gaining a reward for sacrificing a teenager to a demon =/= eliminating the chance for compromise to force a war that could lead to the freedom of mages across Thedas. I'm not addressing whether what Anders did is right or wrong, but it's not comparable to selling someone's soul for a few rewards.

Suppose Hawke believes blindly that with more power and strength, Hawke could single-handedly change the world. Free all the mages, eliminate all the mages, create a paradise on Earth - whatever.

If all it takes is doing it for the sake of a goal, then you just need to invent some in-game reason that Hawke could have for making that deal.

[LobselVith8]

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Because gaining a reward for sacrificing a teenager to a demon =/= eliminating the chance for compromise to force a war that could lead to the freedom of mages across Thedas. I'm not addressing whether what Anders did is right or wrong, but it's not comparable to selling someone's soul for a few rewards.

Suppose Hawke believes blindly that with more power and strength, Hawke could single-handedly change the world. Free all the mages, eliminate all the mages, create a paradise on Earth - whatever.

If all it takes is doing it for the sake of a goal, then you just need to invent some in-game reason that Hawke could have for making that deal. 

So Hawke is going to improve the world by setting loose a Dreamer Abomination who will endanger the lives of everyone he comes across?

[TEWR]

Hawke isn't exactly too bright, now is he?

[In Exile]

LobselVith8 wrote...
So Hawke is going to improve the world by setting loose a Dreamer Abomination who will endanger the lives of everyone he comes across?

Anders is going to improve the plight of mages by murdering one of the most religious figures in Thedas and risking a war that could lead to the genocide of all mages under Chantry authority?

Hypocrisy doesn't preclude holding the idot ball. This is DA2 we're talking about; it's like we're playing beach volleyball, only everyone loses.

[TEWR]

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
So Hawke is going to improve the world by setting loose a Dreamer Abomination who will endanger the lives of everyone he comes across?

Anders is going to improve the plight of mages by murdering one of the most religious figures in Thedas and risking a war that could lead to the genocide of all mages under Chantry authority?

Hypocrisy doesn't preclude holding the idot ball. This is DA2 we're talking about; it's like we're playing beach volleyball, only everyone loses.

Beach volleyball with a nuke.

Anders' actions have a chance to make everything better. A Dreamer Abomination only exists for one goal: "The world is mine to command! I will destroy it all!"


note: those two lines are boss battle phrases. First one to tell me the game and boss will not only receive internetz mailed to them, but a heaping of delicious cookies.

[In Exile]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Beach volleyball with a nuke.

Anders' actions have a chance to make everything better. A Dreamer Abomination only exists for one goal: "The world is mine to command! I will destroy it all!"

Ander's actions immediately lead to the Annulment of Kirkwall's Circle. They certainly lead to the death of everyone in that Chantry. Outside of the scope of the horror...

ETA:

For the record, I'm playing devil's advocate. I don't think the two are equivalent in the sense that one is clearly dumber than the other, but Anders needs a better reason than "I'm totally right about my crime and you're not about yours!"

Modifié par In Exile, 24 avril 2011 - 07:40 .

[TEWR]

which might not have been many people considering it was night and the Chantry was closed. The only people that were in there were most likely Chantry affiliated, which Anders may have taken into account. He probably sought the best course of action in the worst course (meaning reducing the death toll to as minimum a list as possible).

now of course, debris most likely killed some additional people, but it's hard to say really. The debris was scattered everywhere and who knows if it killed anyone in Kirkwall. Most likely it did, but it's unknown really.

The Right of Annulment had been sent for anyway. It was only a matter of time until Meredith invoked it, legally or not, and who knows whether Orsino may have fought back against it (given his disposition to Meredith's actions, I'd say maybe at first).

Through Anders, it was shown how corrupt the Circle and Chantry are in their current state. What Anders did was a symbol.

" Symbols are given power by people. Alone, a symbol is meaningless, but with enough people, blowing up a building can change the world.''

He's hoping for change. He wants the world to see the true plight of mages, not some indoctrinated version that the mass populus swallows up because it comes from the very organization that rules the mages.

"Their faith would have you swallow a great deal for small comfort"

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 24 avril 2011 - 08:06 .

[In Exile]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

which might not have been many people considering it was night and the Chantry was closed. The only people that were in there were most likely Chantry affiliated, which Anders may have taken into account. He probably sought the best course of action in the worst course (meaning reducing the death toll to as minimum a list as possible).

It was likely terrible and guilty - orphans, laypeople in the service of the Chantry, priests and acolytes. The foulest of the foul. I'm sure that in betwee bouts of helping the sick and needy they were drowning babies.

now of course, debris most likely killed some additional people, but it's hard to say really. The debris was scattered everywhere and who knows if it killed anyone in Kirkwall. Most likely it did, but it's unknown really.

Not like the Chantry isn't a huge building in the Centre of the populated town or anything.

The Right of Annulment had been sent for anyway. It was only a matter of time until Meredith invoked it, and who knows whether Orsino may have fought back against it (given his disposition to Meredith's actions, I'd say maybe).

Elthina said no. Justinia... well, it wasn't clear, but if she was planning an Exalted March on a city Meredith effectively ran, I wouldn't bet on it.

Through Anders, it was shown how corrupt the Circle and Chantry are in their current state. What Anders did was a symbol.

" Symbols are given power by people. Alone, a symbol is meaningless, but with enough people, blowing up a building can change the world.''

And naive-Hawke with demon blessings can defeat the Chantry single-handedly. Like Andraste did, only with a less savoury invisible Super Friend.

[LobselVith8]

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
So Hawke is going to improve the world by setting loose a Dreamer Abomination who will endanger the lives of everyone he comes across?

Anders is going to improve the plight of mages by murdering one of the most religious figures in Thedas and risking a war that could lead to the genocide of all mages under Chantry authority?

Hypocrisy doesn't preclude holding the idot ball. This is DA2 we're talking about; it's like we're playing beach volleyball, only everyone loses.

You'll have to excuse me if you're upset that you provided a poor example of why Hawke would sell someone's soul for the benefit of mankind.

[TEWR]

It was likely terrible and guilty - orphans, laypeople in the service of the Chantry, priests and acolytes. The foulest of the foul. I'm sure that in betwee bouts of helping the sick and needy they were drowning babies.

Hey you never know =P. Seriously though, Anders didn't destroy the Kirkwall Chantry and the people inside because they themselves were guilty, but because the Chantry itself is guilty. Anders offered himself to being killed so those people could have justice. He didn't do it to be a martyr. There was genuine sadness and remorse for what he had done. He knew he murdered innocent people, but after 7 years of mages in Kirkwall being treated worse and worse, he felt he had no other option. He may have become a martyr through his death, but he didn't want to die so he could become one.

Not like the Chantry isn't a huge building in the Centre of the populated town or anything.

I never said people couldn't have died from the resulting Jenga game, just we don't really know if people actually died. most likely yes.

Elthina said no. Justinia... well, it wasn't clear, but if she was planning an Exalted March on a city Meredith effectively ran, I wouldn't bet on it.

I don't remember Elthina saying no to the RoA, but she would've definitely. Justinia's reaction to it is unknown. But I said Meredith would've invoked it eventually, legally or not. Did you forget her sword? That lyrium's been messing with her thinking since she got it from Bartrand.

And naive-Hawke with demon blessings can defeat the Chantry single-handedly. Like Andraste did, only with a less savoury invisible Super Friend.

Oh really? That's a bit of a stretch considering Hawke could get all those blessings from various tomes scattered throughout Kirkwall and the Free Marches, and even then is unable to take down the Templars/Mages/Demons/whatever else in Kirkwall single handedly. And even if he did, Torpor is still running amok, so he accomplished nothing by making that deal accept bring the world one step closer to ruin.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 24 avril 2011 - 08:28 .

[In Exile]

LobselVith8 wrote...
You'll have to excuse me if you're upset that you provided a poor example of why Hawke would sell someone's soul for the benefit of mankind.

Ah, because your Anders starting a genocide of mages was such an intelligent outcome? You're actually defending that one?

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Hey
you never know =P. Seriously though, Anders didn't destroy the Kirkwall
Chantry and the people inside because they themselves were guilty, but
because the Chantry itself is guilty. Anders offered himself to being
killed so those people could have justice. He didn't do it to be a
martyr. There was genuine sadness and remorse for what he had done. He
knew he murdered innocent people, but after 7 years of mages in Kirkwall
being treated worse and worse, he felt he had no other option. He may
have become a martyr through his death, but he didn't want to die so he
could become one.

Actually, Anders said that being executed for his crime does make him a martyr. I can't find the dialogue online, but I remember him saying at least that much. He was proud of it; he regreted killing, but felt it was prefectly justified.

I don't want to bring in real-world parallels, but every terrorist justifies the murder of innocents by appealing to the crimes of the instutition as a whole. That's never, in my eyes, justification.

I
never said people couldn't have died from the resulting Jenga game,
just we don't really know if people actually died. most likely yes.

It's impossible to put a number on it because the game doesn't want us to. For all of DA2's appeal to darkness or grit, it really shies away from showing the brutality of death and abuse.

I
don't remember Elthina saying no to the RoA, but she would've
definitely. Justinia's reaction to it is unknown. But I said Meredith
would've invoked it eventually, legally or not. Did you forget her
sword? That lyrium's been messing with her thinking since she got it
from Bartrand.

Meredith asked for the Rite and Elthina said no, and then Meredith appealed to the Divine herself. That's where that boat ended, and Meredith was on her way to ask Elthina to reconsider and Orsino was going to argue against her, when all hell broke loose.

Meredith might have wanted to do it... but if Elthina told the templars to stand down, her authority was absolute. At least, religiously speaking. Anders killed her because she could have reigned them in; he wanted death.

Oh
really? That's a bit of a stretch considering Hawke could get all those
blessings from various tomes scattered throughout Kirkwall and the Free
Marches, and even then is unable to take down the
Templars/Mages/Demons/whatever else in Kirkwall single handedly. And
even if he did, Torpor is still running amok, so he accomplished nothing
by making that deal accept bring the world one step closer to
ruin.

Gameplay & story segregation. After all, Anders could singlehandedly killl every templar in Kirkwall gameplay wise, depending on the difficutly.

A demon and powerful bloodmagic, well, that's something else. One demon is the first step.

Again: my point isn't that Hawke was justified (he wasn't; the whole idea is insane). It's that Anders was equally crazy.

Modifié par In Exile, 24 avril 2011 - 08:51 .

[LobselVith8]

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
You'll have to excuse me if you're upset that you provided a poor example of why Hawke would sell someone's soul for the benefit of mankind.

Ah, because your Anders starting a genocide of mages was such an intelligent outcome? You're actually defending that one?

I notice that you continue to start arguments over things I never actually said. You seem to be making a habit of it. I'm addressing that comparing what Anders did to the Chantry - which is to kill everyone inside in a massive explosion - isn't the same as selling the soul of a teenager and endangering countless people with a Dreamer Abomination. I also addressed that your reasoning was flawed since a protagonist who wants to help people would be doing a lot of harm by letting such an abomination loose on the world.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 24 avril 2011 - 09:00 .

[TEWR]

Actually, Anders said that being executed for his crime does make him a martyr. I can't find the dialogue online, but I remember him saying at least that much. He was proud of it; he regreted killing, but felt it was prefectly justified.

Great now I have to kill him just to make sure he says that. I'm taking you for your word, but I want to hear it myself at some point so it can help future discussions. Goddammit Anders....

It's impossible to put a number on it because the game doesn't want us to. For all of DA2's appeal to darkness or grit, it really shies away from showing the brutality of death and abuse.

They just don't show all of it. They've told us that Alain was raped, that rape happened in the Ferelden Circle, that Kirkwall is abundant with murderers, etc.

Meredith might have wanted to do it... but if Elthina told the templars to stand down, her authority was absolute. At least, religiously speaking. Anders killed her because she could have reigned them in; he wanted death.

I wouldn't put it past Meredith to accuse the Grand Cleric of being a blood mage thrall, and possibly slaying her because of it. She accuses Cullen and the others of it, why wouldn't she do it to the GC?

How the Templars would react, I don't know.

Gameplay & story segregation. After all, Anders could singlehandedly killl every templar in Kirkwall gameplay wise, depending on the difficutly.

A demon and powerful bloodmagic, well, that's something else. One demon is the first step.

Again: my point isn't that Hawke was justified (he wasn't; the whole idea is insane). It's that Anders was equally crazy.

No the books are a part of the lore. Go to Witch Hunt and scour the Circle Tower's bookshelves. One of the books was written by an Enchanter who talks about the mages using these books as an easy way out. They are very much lore and story related.

Also, on the last point, fair enough

[In Exile]

LobselVith8 wrote...
I notice that you continue to start arguments over things I never actually said. You seem to be making a habit of it. I'm addressing that comparing what Anders did to the Chantry - which is to kill everyone inside in a massive explosion - isn't the same as selling the soul of a teenager and endangering countless people with a Dreamer Abomination. I also addressed that your reasoning was flawed since a protagonist who wants to help people would be doing a lot of harm by letting such an abomination loose on the world.

Selective evidence is shoddy reasoning. Anders action directly leads to a war against the templars, and that's what he wants! His end goal is Chantry go Boom!, but no compromise, so there has to be a war. Anything that results from that is his desired goal; every death is something he wanted because he thinks it's for the best.

So Anders is a protagonist that wants to help people by starting a war, which directly leads to a genocide of mages in Kirkwall, which he actually expected.

If the dream abomination murders a few hundred people, we could say Hawke's death toll is equivalent to Anders.

So, no, I'm not putting words in your mouth. As it seems that I've noticed, you seem unwilling to actually follow your reasoning to its logical conclusion.

[In Exile]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Great now I have to kill him just to make sure he says that. I'm taking you for your word, but I want to hear it myself at some point so it can help future discussions. Goddammit Anders....

I never actually spared Anders, so I didn't know he could avoid saying he's a martyr. But as I recall, it was one of the investigate options that made him say this. Or maybe a back and forth with Sebastian.

They just don't show all of it. They've told us that Alain was raped, that rape happened in the Ferelden Circle, that Kirkwall is abundant with murderers, etc.

I'm talking about the Rite, though. Children aren't exempt.

I wouldn't put it past Meredith to accuse the Grand Cleric of being a blood mage thrall, and possibly slaying her because of it. She accuses Cullen and the others of it, why wouldn't she do it to the GC?

How the Templars would react, I don't know.

She backed down. I think however insane she was, Meredith wouldn't out and out kill or disown her. And if she did, with the groundswell of anti-Meredith sentiment, I think the mages would look to Cullen for leadership.

No the books are a part of the lore. Go to Witch Hunt and scour the Circle Tower's bookshelves. One of the books was written by an Enchanter who talks about the mages using these books as an easy way out. They are very much lore and story related.

Also, on the last point, fair enough

Oh, no, I believe that. I just mean that we don' t know what the relative gain would be between books & Torpor.

Modifié par In Exile, 24 avril 2011 - 09:25 .

[LobselVith8]

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
I notice that you continue to start arguments over things I never actually said. You seem to be making a habit of it. I'm addressing that comparing what Anders did to the Chantry - which is to kill everyone inside in a massive explosion - isn't the same as selling the soul of a teenager and endangering countless people with a Dreamer Abomination. I also addressed that your reasoning was flawed since a protagonist who wants to help people would be doing a lot of harm by letting such an abomination loose on the world.

Selective evidence is shoddy reasoning.

Shoddy reasoning is shoddy, too. You seem to keep going back to Anders blowing up the Chantry as though it makes the situation with Feynriel compariable, and it doesn't. Anders wants to see his people free, whether you agree with it or not. Hawke can sell out Feynriel's soul for personal gain.

In Exile wrote...

Anders action directly leads to a war against the templars, and that's what he wants! His end goal is Chantry go Boom!, but no compromise, so there has to be a war. Anything that results from that is his desired goal; every death is something he wanted because he thinks it's for the best.

Anders feels that the Circles have failed the mages, and that a success against the Chantry and the templars will lead to the justice mages deserve.

In Exile wrote...

So Anders is a protagonist that wants to help people by starting a war, which directly leads to a genocide of mages in Kirkwall, which he actually expected.

Anders wants the emancipation of his people, which is the point behind his killing of Grand Cleric Elthina.

In Exile wrote...

If the dream abomination murders a few hundred people, we could say Hawke's death toll is equivalent to Anders.

So, no, I'm not putting words in your mouth. As it seems that I've noticed, you seem unwilling to actually follow your reasoning to its logical conclusion.

I never even provided a stance in this thread on whether I supported Anders or not, so you continue to be arguing a point that I haven't made here. Explaining why Anders is doing what he's doing is very different than providing my own opinion on the issue.

[In Exile]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Shoddy reasoning is shoddy, too. You seem to keep going back to Anders blowing up the Chantry as though it makes the situation with Feynriel compariable, and it doesn't. Anders wants to see his people free, whether you agree with it or not. Hawke can sell out Feynriel's soul for personal gain.

No. Hawke (maybe) wants to sell Fenryel's soul for the sake of Thedas and a better future. Anders wants to start a world-war that will immediately result in deaths and could end with the genocide or imprisonment of the mages.

The motives don't need to differ. The consequences arguably don't differ.

But for whatever reason you seem to be stuck on the ''Hawke did it for gain'' narrative, which I explicitly rejected to start with. Whoever you're arguing against, it isn't me.

Anders feels that the Circles have failed the mages, and that a success against the Chantry and the templars will lead to the justice mages deserve.

And Hakwe coudl very well feel that no one can help the mages, or the poor, or whatever, and so greater power is needed, and it does not matter where that power comes from (just like it does not matter how many die for Anders if the end is met).

So Hawke feels that a success will lead to a better world for all.

Again, the argument you're offering here is reflexive. I mean, I can literally substitute the words to lead to the same conclusion.

Anders wants the emancipation of his people, which is the point behind his killing of Grand Cleric Elthina.

No, Anders wants war. He says that explicitly - Elthina dies to remove compromise. The mages rise, people die, and maybe there is freedom.

I never even provided a stance in this thread on whether I supported Anders or not, so you continue to be arguing a point that I haven't made here. Explaining why Anders is doing what he's doing is very different than providing my own opinion on the issue.

What you're doing is justifying what Anders is doing; he wanted ''x'' and it led to ''y'' but his intentions were good, whereas you're saying Hawke who wanted ''z'' that led to ''w'' but his intentions aren't good.

What I am saying is that ''z'' or ''x'' could have involved the same naive and prideful ''I have a right to decide for all!' mentality on the part of either Hawke or Anders, both could have had good intentions, and both of their consequences lead to the same number of deaths.

All to say that they aren't arguably in situations that are that different. If the key difference between hypocrisy and not hypocrisy isn't substantive action but motive, then we can easily give Hawke the same motive.

That's what you're not seeing.

[LobselVith8]

In Exile wrote...

No. Hawke (maybe) wants to sell Fenryel's soul for the sake of Thedas and a better future. Anders wants to start a world-war that will immediately result in deaths and could end with the genocide or imprisonment of the mages.

The motives don't need to differ. The consequences arguably don't differ.

But for whatever reason you seem to be stuck on the ''Hawke did it for gain'' narrative, which I explicitly rejected to start with. Whoever you're arguing against, it isn't me.

Because Hawke did do it for gain. You're saying his gain would ultimately help people, but it doesn't address that he's let loose a Dreamer Abomination who will end up killing people because of Hawke's actions.

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Anders feels that the Circles have failed the mages, and that a success against the Chantry and the templars will lead to the justice mages deserve.

And Hakwe coudl very well feel that no one can help the mages, or the poor, or whatever, and so greater power is needed, and it does not matter where that power comes from (just like it does not matter how many die for Anders if the end is met).

So Hawke feels that a success will lead to a better world for all.

Again, the argument you're offering here is reflexive. I mean, I can literally substitute the words to lead to the same conclusion.

Except Hawke does nothing but react for most of the storyline, so your assertion doesn't fit. Does he do anything when he finds a letter signed "O"? No. Does he do anything to help the disenfranchized people of Darktown, or the impoverished elves of the Alienage? No.

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Anders wants the emancipation of his people, which is the point behind his killing of Grand Cleric Elthina.

No, Anders wants war. He says that explicitly - Elthina dies to remove compromise. The mages rise, people die, and maybe there is freedom.

No, Anders says he wants the justice all mages have been waiting for through a war.

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I never even provided a stance in this thread on whether I supported Anders or not, so you continue to be arguing a point that I haven't made here. Explaining why Anders is doing what he's doing is very different than providing my own opinion on the issue.

What you're doing is justifying what Anders is doing; he wanted ''x'' and it led to ''y'' but his intentions were good, whereas you're saying Hawke who wanted ''z'' that led to ''w'' but his intentions aren't good.

What I am saying is that ''z'' or ''x'' could have involved the same naive and prideful ''I have a right to decide for all!' mentality on the part of either Hawke or Anders, both could have had good intentions, and both of their consequences lead to the same number of deaths.

All to say that they aren't arguably in situations that are that different. If the key difference between hypocrisy and not hypocrisy isn't substantive action but motive, then we can easily give Hawke the same motive.

That's what you're not seeing.

When I address why Anders did something, it's not the same as supporting what he did. You don't seem to quite grasp that concept. And again, wanting a war that will lead to the freedom of his people isn't the same as selling the soul of a teenager to a demon for personal gain.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 24 avril 2011 - 04:43 .

[Camenae]

I can't believe this pot vs kettle discussion went on for five pages.

[TEWR]

I can't believe it's not butter!





Sorry, I'll go smack myself now

[Eowien Thiele]

Ryzaki wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

I can't believe I'm defending Anders...

Justice being against you giving Fandreyl to Torpor and Anders/Justice blowing up the Chantry isn't an example of him being a hypocrite, or even inconsistent in his beliefs.

You would sacrifice an innocent for your own ambition!

Isn't hypocritical with what he does latter...how exactly? He sacrificed an innocent to start a war. To free the mages was his goal. It being more noble doesn't stop the fact that he sacrificed an innocent for his ambition. 

Said this before - Elthina is not an innocent.  She had moral, ethical and legal responsibility for the actions of the Chantry and the Templars.  She chose not to act and to allow atrocities to be committed in her name.  For example, she knew that Mother Patrice was inciting against the Qunari and she chose to let things get out of hand, resulting in the death of Seamus.  Who WAS innocent.  She could have relieved Meredith and appointed Cullen at any time over seven years.  She chose instead to treat Meredith like an errant child ("Be a good girl, Meredith") and hardly ever described mages as individuals at all, except Orsino.  Finally, she was warned that she was not safe and she KNEW that her death could destabilze everything.  Instead of THEN taking action to stop Meredith and possibly avert disaster - or taking the responsible path of stepping down, she chose to stay in office and do nothing. In my opinion, she betrayed every citizen in Kirkwall.

[Ryzaki]

Camenae wrote...

I can't believe this pot vs kettle discussion went on for five pages.

Indeed. 

[HippeusOmega]

Ryzaki wrote...

Camenae wrote...

I can't believe this pot vs kettle discussion went on for five pages.

Indeed. 

Somewhat my fault. Was just curious what ppl thought. But being off-topic after playing through the game a 2nd time i can honestly say i hate Aveline more then Anders. She is the Guard or Guard Captain yet she can't do nothing on her own and thinks she is better then everyone else.