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Wait, so ME2 was entirely pointless then?


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#126
Lunatic LK47

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Urdnot Orrad wrote...

Perhaps, but instead of writing them off, why not show a little faith and say to yourself: "Maybe the company that gave me this story arc actually knows what they're doing better than I know?"


Like how the Horizon meeting was crammed with **** writing, especially with Shepard's DERP responses? How most of the ME1 squadmembers got little more than three-minute cameos (with Wrex only being the cameo done right?)? How almost every side thing you did was little more than an overglorified email? How about Conrad Verner being glitched?

#127
JeffZero

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Garrus rejoined me.
Tali rejoined me.
The Virmire Survivor ordeal was certainly subpar.
Wrex's cameo was done fine, indeed.
Liara got quite a bit to herself if you count LOTSB, which should you choose not to I can respect that. But I do count it.

So that's... uh, well for me, that's one out of five wrong.

#128
Lunatic LK47

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JeffZero wrote...

Garrus rejoined me.
Tali rejoined me.
The Virmire Survivor ordeal was certainly subpar.
Wrex's cameo was done fine, indeed.
Liara got quite a bit to herself if you count LOTSB, which should you choose not to I can respect that. But I do count it.

So that's... uh, well for me, that's one out of five wrong.


Uh, 4 out of 6 squadmates= Most, and I'm going off of the vanilla game, before LOTSB existed.

#129
JeffZero

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Lunatic LK47 wrote...

JeffZero wrote...

Garrus rejoined me.
Tali rejoined me.
The Virmire Survivor ordeal was certainly subpar.
Wrex's cameo was done fine, indeed.
Liara got quite a bit to herself if you count LOTSB, which should you choose not to I can respect that. But I do count it.

So that's... uh, well for me, that's one out of five wrong.


Uh, 4 out of 6 squadmates= Most, and I'm going off of the vanilla game, before LOTSB existed.


Like I said, regarding Liara, your mileage may vary. So, 'uh', that's that.

And I said five because six would imply they brought Kaidan and Ashley back for ME2, which is impossible. There are only five previous squadmates to account for. One's dead.

#130
Lunatic LK47

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JeffZero wrote...


And I said five because six would imply they brought Kaidan and Ashley back for ME2, which is impossible. There are only five previous squadmates to account for. One's dead.


I counted both Kaidan and Ashley mainly because one of them will still show up regardless, so that's where my 4 out of 6 came from. Semantics.

#131
JeffZero

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Lunatic LK47 wrote...

JeffZero wrote...


And I said five because six would imply they brought Kaidan and Ashley back for ME2, which is impossible. There are only five previous squadmates to account for. One's dead.


I counted both Kaidan and Ashley mainly because one of them will still show up regardless, so that's where my 4 out of 6 came from. Semantics.


Semanics, indeed. I'll say five and you'll say six. Either way, that's a majority.

Modifié par JeffZero, 24 avril 2011 - 09:15 .


#132
Walker White

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Da Mecca wrote...

I personally feel it was pointless. I thought the series would go as follows

ME1: Learn about the Reaper threat
ME2: Try to figure out a way to stop the reaper threat
ME3: Engage the reaper threat

Instead we get..

ME1:Learn about the reaper threat
ME2:Solve people's problems then stop a minor threat to the galaxy as a whole/major threat to humanity
ME3:Engage the Reaer threat


Your desired outline does not even remotely follow the classic three act structure.  Acts 2 never directly provides the tools for the conflict in act 3.  There is always a reversal in-between.  Now granted, we typically apply the three act structure to a single game (the act breaks in ME1 and ME2 are incredibly obvious).  But for the same reason it works in a single game, there is no reason why we should expect a linear structure over a series.

Furthermore this whole "minor threat" to the galaxy is a big assumption.  We have no idea what the Collectors were doing. This is like complaining that Two Towers was a side quest because it was primarily about the confrontation with Saruman, and not about the ring. Except that we all know that it was impossible for Frodo to make it into Mordor without this distraction.

I honestly have no idea what stuff people on this forum read when they complain about the storytelling in the ME series. Because their criteria does not match any epic series I have read.

#133
ExtremeOne

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Walker White wrote...

Da Mecca wrote...

I personally feel it was pointless. I thought the series would go as follows

ME1: Learn about the Reaper threat
ME2: Try to figure out a way to stop the reaper threat
ME3: Engage the reaper threat

Instead we get..

ME1:Learn about the reaper threat
ME2:Solve people's problems then stop a minor threat to the galaxy as a whole/major threat to humanity
ME3:Engage the Reaer threat


Your desired outline does not even remotely follow the classic three act structure.  Acts 2 never directly provides the tools for the conflict in act 3.  There is always a reversal in-between.  Now granted, we typically apply the three act structure to a single game (the act breaks in ME1 and ME2 are incredibly obvious).  But for the same reason it works in a single game, there is no reason why we should expect a linear structure over a series.

Furthermore this whole "minor threat" to the galaxy is a big assumption.  We have no idea what the Collectors were doing. This is like complaining that Two Towers was a side quest because it was primarily about the confrontation with Saruman, and not about the ring. Except that we all know that it was impossible for Frodo to make it into Mordor without this distraction.

I honestly have no idea what stuff people on this forum read when they complain about the storytelling in the ME series. Because their criteria does not match any epic series I have read.

   









The Mass Effect series is not very Epic at all. Everyone says that Mass Effect 2 is on the same level as Empire Strikes Back . Star Wars makes this franchise look pathetic .  There is nothing about this series that makes it Epic at all. If Bioware had stuck with the idea of player choice that drives Shepard story . Then maybe it would have been epic . Once Bioware started turning it into a fan service controlled franchise it was over for it .  

#134
Metal Mills

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Da Mecca wrote...

I personally feel it was pointless. I thought the series would go as follows

ME1: Learn about the Reaper threat
ME2: Try to figure out a way to stop the reaper threat
ME3: Engage the reaper threat

Instead we get..

ME1:Learn about the reaper threat
ME2:Solve people's problems then stop a minor threat to the galaxy as a whole/major threat to humanity
ME3:Engage the Reaer threat


A trilogy should be more like:

ME1: Learn about repearers and the invasion.
ME2: Reapers arrive, massive damage across the galaxy, hold them off but only just, many more coming.
ME3: Find way to stop them strike back.

2 should have been the dark part of the trilogy like Empire Strikes back.

Clearly they wanted to leave the Reapers until the final game(lol final sure) but the 2nd stuffered because of that.

Modifié par Metal Mills, 24 avril 2011 - 03:08 .


#135
marshalleck

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DeadlyParasite wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

DeadlyParasite wrote...

You defeated the collectors, agents for the reapers.

I fail to see how any of that is irrelevant. Had they not stopped the collectors, Humanity would have been crippled.

But of course the moment team members decide that they have successfully defeated the collectors (which they were recruited to do) and leave for better things, the fans go up in flames.

People these days.


Yeah, losing a few colonies out in the Terminus sure would cripple humanity and its 12 billion+ population back on Earth. And man, those Collectors sure are scary with their one cruiser! I bet it would take them all of five minutes to die a horrible death after coming out of the Arcturus relay and encountering the Systems Alliance Fifth Fleet. 


They make the revelation quite clear during the derelict ship mission that the ship has the capacity to hold enough humans to make Earth a viable target, as Shepard tells EDI.

Collectors finish off the Terminus colonies -> push deep and eventually collect the desired amount of humans neccessary to complete that Human Reaper. Human Reaper and Collectors strike Earth. The anti-seeker swarm technology is never developed because as you so adeptly imply, the second game is meaningless. Humans are stolen without a single casualty for the Collectors.

Pieces, fit them together.


It doesn't matter what the capacity of their cruiser is, what matters is to get to Earth they have to go through Arcturus Station and several fleets of Alliance warships which blockade the Arcturus relay that partners with Sol system's Charon relay--the relay in Earth's solar system. You think their one stupid cruiser is going to survive that? Not a chance, we saw on Horizon that conventional GARDIAN laser batteries can damage their vessel and drive them off. And they won't have Space Terminator ready--they need to hit Earth to complete that. And that's going to be impossible for them. The Collectors were never a serious threat to the galaxy, just human colonies in the Terminus. 

See, I have put the pieces together and the resulting picture is quite laughable.  

Modifié par marshalleck, 24 avril 2011 - 03:27 .


#136
xxSgt_Reed_24xx

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kcp12 wrote...

The mission was over so what point is there for the team to stay together.


Seriously!?

Ok, so let's say you were part of that team (or even the ME1 team) and you just completed the SM and saw some of your friends die at the hands of the Collectors working for the Reapers. You also now know that it is all about saving the entire galaxy from almost certain destruction, b/c you know what the Reapers are trying to do via working for Shepard.

So, you're saying that you would just go, "eh... mission's over... see ya around"?? Even with the possible destruction of the galaxy coming? I mean really.... ONLY characters like Zaeed should even THINK about leaving... ones that only work for money. But I would think that they would want to save the galaxy as well... it's the most, "profittable" scenario for them as well.

Having the team split up in the face of the Reapers makes no sense at all. Oh no... Mordin is about ready to die... so is thane!!! *gasp* ... So what, if anything I'd think (especially given their personalities) that they would want to fight the Reapers to the end... possible saving a couple of lives in their place. 

#137
TwistedComplex

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You got a team together to stop the collectors

And you did

Would there be any reason for them to stick around?

#138
TwistedComplex

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xxSgt_Reed_24xx wrote...

kcp12 wrote...

The mission was over so what point is there for the team to stay together.


Seriously!?

Ok, so let's say you were part of that team (or even the ME1 team) and you just completed the SM and saw some of your friends die at the hands of the Collectors working for the Reapers. You also now know that it is all about saving the entire galaxy from almost certain destruction, b/c you know what the Reapers are trying to do via working for Shepard.

So, you're saying that you would just go, "eh... mission's over... see ya around"?? Even with the possible destruction of the galaxy coming? I mean really.... ONLY characters like Zaeed should even THINK about leaving... ones that only work for money. But I would think that they would want to save the galaxy as well... it's the most, "profittable" scenario for them as well.

Having the team split up in the face of the Reapers makes no sense at all. Oh no... Mordin is about ready to die... so is thane!!! *gasp* ... So what, if anything I'd think (especially given their personalities) that they would want to fight the Reapers to the end... possible saving a couple of lives in their place. 




You're assuming that SOME team mates DIDN'T stick around

If you followed the info you would know that Garrus is staying, and more probably to be announced. So why are you flipping your sh*t over this?

#139
Iconic_N7

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Even if ME2 was "pointless" in your opinion, imagine how frustrated and angered Shepard would feel throwing his life on the line countless times for nothing, Adds to the suspense in ME3 to me. Even though I totally disagree. Everything you accomplished throughout the previous installments will come back to bite the Reapers in the rear in ME3. Depending on how you played the first two games, you'll notice how some things you did in ME & even ME2 aids you in the 3rd game. Im sure of it.

#140
Akizora

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Mass Effect 2 did what most trilogies do, set up the scene for the third installment I obviously can't go into detail since this is a non-spoiler forum but most of the plotlines that will take place in ME3 were prepared and "personalized" in ME2. Meaning your choices will tailor the situation for you in ME3 where all your decissions from ME1 and ME2 come into play for the (hopefully) epic conclusion.

So was ME2 pointless? Simply put, no. Maybe it seems like it was without ME3 in our hands, but once we do get ME3 we'll start to see how everything plays out by already knowing how it all started (and sometimes deciding it).

#141
DeadlyParasite

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marshalleck wrote...

DeadlyParasite wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

DeadlyParasite wrote...

You defeated the collectors, agents for the reapers.

I fail to see how any of that is irrelevant. Had they not stopped the collectors, Humanity would have been crippled.

But of course the moment team members decide that they have successfully defeated the collectors (which they were recruited to do) and leave for better things, the fans go up in flames.

People these days.


Yeah, losing a few colonies out in the Terminus sure would cripple humanity and its 12 billion+ population back on Earth. And man, those Collectors sure are scary with their one cruiser! I bet it would take them all of five minutes to die a horrible death after coming out of the Arcturus relay and encountering the Systems Alliance Fifth Fleet. 


They make the revelation quite clear during the derelict ship mission that the ship has the capacity to hold enough humans to make Earth a viable target, as Shepard tells EDI.

Collectors finish off the Terminus colonies -> push deep and eventually collect the desired amount of humans neccessary to complete that Human Reaper. Human Reaper and Collectors strike Earth. The anti-seeker swarm technology is never developed because as you so adeptly imply, the second game is meaningless. Humans are stolen without a single casualty for the Collectors.

Pieces, fit them together.


It doesn't matter what the capacity of their cruiser is, what matters is to get to Earth they have to go through Arcturus Station and several fleets of Alliance warships which blockade the Arcturus relay that partners with Sol system's Charon relay--the relay in Earth's solar system. You think their one stupid cruiser is going to survive that? Not a chance, we saw on Horizon that conventional GARDIAN laser batteries can damage their vessel and drive them off. And they won't have Space Terminator ready--they need to hit Earth to complete that. And that's going to be impossible for them. The Collectors were never a serious threat to the galaxy, just human colonies in the Terminus. 

See, I have put the pieces together and the resulting picture is quite laughable.  


Well now it's just appraent you're trolling and trying to instigate emotions but I'll already repeat what I thought I had typed.

Collectors continue to harvest terminus systems, push in deeper to other alliance held colonies.

>>>>>>>>FINISH BUILDING HUMAN REAPER<<<<<<<<<<<<<

And then >>>>>>>>>BOTH<<<<<<<<<<< attack Earth.

Humans on the planet cannot escape because you say Mass Effect 2 had no meaning. Anti-Seeker Swarm technology is never developed, humans on Earth are slowly harvested over time.

Human Reaper annihilates Earth's fleet. Just as Sovereign so passionately laid waste to the Fifth Fleet.

Or did you somehow forget about game #1? www.youtube.com/watch

Without those shields down, your humans don't stand a chance.

#142
xxSgt_Reed_24xx

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TwistedComplex wrote...

xxSgt_Reed_24xx wrote...

kcp12 wrote...

The mission was over so what point is there for the team to stay together.


Seriously!?

Ok, so let's say you were part of that team (or even the ME1 team) and you just completed the SM and saw some of your friends die at the hands of the Collectors working for the Reapers. You also now know that it is all about saving the entire galaxy from almost certain destruction, b/c you know what the Reapers are trying to do via working for Shepard.

So, you're saying that you would just go, "eh... mission's over... see ya around"?? Even with the possible destruction of the galaxy coming? I mean really.... ONLY characters like Zaeed should even THINK about leaving... ones that only work for money. But I would think that they would want to save the galaxy as well... it's the most, "profittable" scenario for them as well.

Having the team split up in the face of the Reapers makes no sense at all. Oh no... Mordin is about ready to die... so is thane!!! *gasp* ... So what, if anything I'd think (especially given their personalities) that they would want to fight the Reapers to the end... possible saving a couple of lives in their place. 




You're assuming that SOME team mates DIDN'T stick around

If you followed the info you would know that Garrus is staying, and more probably to be announced. So why are you flipping your sh*t over this?


I'm not flipping out over anything... I was just saying that after finding out about what the reapers are trying, people who were already involved wouldn't just casually walk away b/c the mission they signed on for was over.... it makes no sense.

That being said, I'm a bigger fan of the ME1 squad and I couldn't care less if no one, save Garrus, was coming back from the ME2 squad. (which I know that he is... and Ash is back in some form, so... I'm good.)

Still, all I was saying was... it doesn't make much sense for these people to just, up and leave, especially in the face of a reaper invasion. 

#143
marshalleck

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DeadlyParasite wrote...

Well now it's just appraent you're trolling and trying to instigate emotions but I'll already repeat what I thought I had typed.

Collectors continue to harvest terminus systems, push in deeper to other alliance held colonies.

>>>>>>>>FINISH BUILDING HUMAN REAPER<<<<<<<<<<<<<

And then >>>>>>>>>BOTH<<<<<<<<<<< attack Earth.

Humans on the planet cannot escape because you say Mass Effect 2 had no meaning. Anti-Seeker Swarm technology is never developed, humans on Earth are slowly harvested over time.

Human Reaper annihilates Earth's fleet. Just as Sovereign so passionately laid waste to the Fifth Fleet.

Or did you somehow forget about game #1? www.youtube.com/watch

Without those shields down, your humans don't stand a chance.


I'm trolling because I've spent more than thirty seconds thinking about the plot of ME2? I don't think that's how trolling works...

You say the Collectors would simply "push in deeper" into other Alliance colonies. Fine, whatever. We already know the Alliance is aware of the abductions and actively working on establishing a defense, or at least assisting the colonies in defending themselves. They were in the process of installing GARDIAN lasers on Horizon when it was attacked, and there's no reason to believe that was the only colony receiving them. We saw during the final combat sequence on Horizon that GARDIAN lasers are an effective means of damaging the Collector cruiser (as long as the targeting computers are installed correctly!), enough so that it will force them to abort their attack. The Collector ship doesn't have the defenses of a Reaper, not even close. It's mostly a science vessel. All it has going for it in combat is its main cannon, and that is extremely limited in how it can fire, being laterally oriented along the hull of the vessel. They have to turn the entire ship to aim it in different directions, much like a conventional dreadnaught. This is a fairly severe tactical weakness if they're forced to engage multiple targets, as they would if they attempted to engage Alliance forces. 

The Collectors can't finish building the Space Terminator without attacking Earth. I'm pretty sure this is established to be their goal in ME2, and besides thanks to Mac Walters we have confirmation that the Space Terminator is in fact intended to be the core of a whole new Reaper. Which is fine in and of itself plotwise, but it just reinforces how the Collectors are going to need way more humans than are in the Terminus. And how long do you think humans are going to keep residing on remote colonies if the abductions continue unabated? Eventually they'd begin to flee back to defended areas, and we're back to Collectors running out of humans to juice. The Space Terminator is not the end of their science project--it's only the core of a whole new Reaper. Completing it would not lend the Collectors any tactical advantage. They still have to construct an entire 2 kilometer long ship to encase the Space Terminator in before it can be considered complete and battle-ready.

If you want to say the Collectors would just magically finish their Reaper without needing any more humans, fine. Whatever. I don't buy it though, I think it's flimsy and doesn't hold up to scrutiny. 

Modifié par marshalleck, 24 avril 2011 - 05:45 .


#144
Evercrow

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I think splitting the team was a good idea. They could help war effort much more if they are freed from the small Normandy. And having trusted allies among each faction in the game is better than having them in some rooster, from which I can choose only TWO people, while rest are being used just to dispel emptiness of Normandy's decks.

It's like having Wrex alive to help you out on Tuchanka - you don't really need him there, but it's still satisfying to see friendly face and some old connection.

I do hope each of our teammates would play some role(sometimes major, like Legion in ME2) in the next game.That will make ME2 not pointless - because you not just plunged in the chaos of intergalactic war, you see many familiar faces, and know who to trust and who to work with.

#145
Destroy Raiden_

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ME2 was the filler while we waited for ME3.

#146
blazin130791

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I think keeping some characters on is important, whether they appear as recruitable characters or not. That is, so long as they have a good reason for not joining you.

I think less linear "team building" would be better. Like you meet people as you are following through the main plot rather than spend the majority of the game recruiting.

#147
xxSgt_Reed_24xx

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blazin130791 wrote...


I think less linear "team building" would be better. Like you meet people as you are following through the main plot rather than spend the majority of the game recruiting.


Yeah, this is definitely how recruiting needs to be done in this game.... b/c, we all know, there will be some new shinies that bioware wants us to have. 

#148
Abispa

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The purpose of building up the team in ME2 was to give you friends who'll wind up all over the galaxy so you'll have a legitimate excuse to spend more than half of ME3 exploring it. Not that I'm complaining, side quests are an RPG staple.

My main problem with ME2 were the Collectors. Why did the Reapers need another slave race? ME2 could have (and, in my opinion, SHOULD HAVE) featured many new Geth models to battle, husks and indoctrinated thralls from the established races. Harbingers could have traveled through Geth hosts just as easily. A race of mindless super-bugs is so tired in SciFi, and I wasn't a big fan of them before.

And having Garrus special order a new gun for Normandy to take the Collector ship out with two shots really took away any illusion of the Collectors being formidable. Of course, Garrus was there 24/7 making sure it was calibrated, so maybe it was skill and not technology. And the only reason the Collector base was so difficult is that no one from the crew to Shepard to TIM was smart enough to pack a few nukes for the suicide mission, even though they thought they may have had to go to war with an entire Collector planet.

#149
marshalleck

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Abispa wrote...
 And the only reason the Collector base was so difficult is that no one from the crew to Shepard to TIM was smart enough to pack a few nukes for the suicide mission, even though they thought they may have had to go to war with an entire Collector planet.


I'm not sure what good you think nukes are going to do in the galactic core. With no atmosphere to conduct a pressurized shockwave or thermal radiation, nukes are nothing more than a bright flash of light and jets of gamma rays, neutrons, electrons, and alpha particles. Now on Earth a high concentration of ionizing radiation can be pretty harmful, but in the galactic core? A nuke there wouldn't even be a drop in the bucket compared to the constant extreme radiation bath the collector base is immersed in. They've got some pretty amazing shielding technology. The Normandy SR-2 has nukes in its arsenal (hello Pragia!) but it should be pretty obvious they'd be useless deployed externally against the Collector base. 

Modifié par marshalleck, 24 avril 2011 - 08:43 .


#150
Abispa

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@ Lunatic LK47 -- I have NO IDEA whether or not Tali will be an admiral in ME3, but I would not be surprised if it happens. Tali herself said that she was being seriously considered for the role even though she didn't seem to be too excited about it, and concluded that it wasn't going to happen soon anyway since Quarians really like to debate.

Not to say that you haven't made good points on why she wasn't qualified, but seriously, did you see the other admirals running the Migrant Fleet? Are you seriously saying that she couldn't match and exceed the Quarians' existing standards?