39 réponses à ce sujet

[Sumerisle]

Why we have to wait so much to throw Anders off the group, and embrace Bethany again? She is a clever girl, and even if she's an apostate, she understands the dangers of the magic (and do not whine all the time, like Anders). 
And she look gorgeous with the blue robe. And finally, please give her an specialization tree. Something like Circle Battlemage. 
She really deserves it. 
Did I mentioned that she's my favorite sister?

[Myusha]

She's your only sister.

[Sumerisle]

Sadly true, but even then, she's the best. I love her. Thanks Bioware to let me keep her alive.

[MissInDeceased]

I was so mad when I had to lose her, she was my main mage. She was always part of my 'neutral' group when I wanted to do something that wouldn't go over well with some of my other party members.

[Sumerisle]

That's true. When I saw her in the Circle, I thoght about her role as the offensive version of Wynne, you know both were in the circle, both of them are peaceful, kind, etc. and they were not obssesioned with blood magic (Merril), power (Morrigan), vengance (Anders, Velanna). Anders is a very conflictive character since his personal quest number 1: "Go to the chantry, rescue my tranquil apostate lover, help me kill the templars, please, if don't, I'll start to cry." It's awful.

[Lunare]

For me she was one of the most boring characters and I was glad when she was gone.
I didn't miss her.

[Gamer Ftw]

She is a sweetheart but not that interesting.

[Xewaka]

For all the emphasis marketing made over the family stuff, Bethany and Carver feel terribly under-used.

[Cutlass Jack]

They got rid of her for precisely the reason they knew you'd use her instead of Anders. Which I'm guessing is also the reason Merril is the only Keeper that never figured out how to heal.

Note Bethany comes back the minute you've 'removed' Anders from the team permanently. (if she's a warden)

But yeah I'd have kept her on the team full time if I could have. Favorite sister indeed.

[SurelyForth]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

They got rid of her for precisely the reason they knew you'd use her instead of Anders. Which I'm guessing is also the reason Merril is the only Keeper that never figured out how to heal.

Note Bethany comes back the minute you've 'removed' Anders from the team permanently. (if she's a warden)

But yeah I'd have kept her on the team full time if I could have. Favorite sister indeed.

So does Carver. You can also boot Anders out of the party permanantly in Act 2, but he does't get replaced. 

[Kawamura]

If she's your only sister, that makes her your least favourite as well.

You could always play mage and play a healer yourself. Of course, Bethany dies early, but then you don't really need Anders for any reason. And then there's always potions.

[Sumerisle]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

They got rid of her for precisely the reason they knew you'd use her instead of Anders. Which I'm guessing is also the reason Merril is the only Keeper that never figured out how to heal.

Note Bethany comes back the minute you've 'removed' Anders from the team permanently. (if she's a warden)

But yeah I'd have kept her on the team full time if I could have. Favorite sister indeed.

I didn't know that she can became a Warden, but don't like the idea either (the taint is a cruel destiny), but I think is better than the death, anyway. Still, I think she belongs to the Circle of Magi, too bad that Kirkwall's circle is so unfair with the mages. 
Thinking on this, she could unlock two specializations, one if she become a grey warden (Warden Mage), or she study at the Circle (Circle Battlemage), that is not bad, uh?
If we ask Bioware a lot, maybe those additions could be on future DLCs! Bethany Rules!<3

[Sumerisle]

Kawamura wrote...

If she's your only sister, that makes her your least favourite as well.

You could always play mage and play a healer yourself. Of course, Bethany dies early, but then you don't really need Anders for any reason. And then there's always potions.

Don't be cruel with her, my point was I like the idea of keeping Beth alive. The main reason for not using Mr. "I'm allways sound like about to cry" Anders is not that I don't like him (well, not until he starts to blow people away) since he's a very useful character (haste/ arcane shield/healing, etc) It's the fact that Bethany is my sister, she's lovely, and I like the idea of both Hawke sisters kicking ass.

[Sarcastic Tasha]

I like Bethany especially with a sarcastic Hawke (I enjoy teasing my real life sister so I think Hawke should tease Bethany). I don't really think having a healer is important in DA, I'd rather have Merrill on my team so that we can kill enemies quicker.

[XX55XX]

Bethany was a terribly shallow character. I know BioWare was trying to make her a character that would appeal to everyone, but BioWare didn't give her a spike. She has no sharp edges, no spikes, nothing truly notable about her character. Anders had his thing with the Chantry, Merrill had her thing with blood magic and "saving her clan," heck, even Carver had his spike, chiefly, antagonism against the elder Hawke.

And, before anyone tells me that Varric didn't have a spike and was likeable despite it, he had a spike - he was funny. Bethany has some amusing dialogue, but little else. She is as three-dimensional as a piece of cardboard.

I really tried to like Bethany, but as she laying dying in the Deep Roads, I doubt even my character shed a tear.

Additionally, her lack of screentime compared to the other characters kills her chances for true character development.

[Urazz]

XX55XX wrote...

Bethany was a terribly shallow character. I know BioWare was trying to make her a character that would appeal to everyone, but BioWare didn't give her a spike. She has no sharp edges, no spikes, nothing truly notable about her character. Anders had his thing with the Chantry, Merrill had her thing with blood magic and "saving her clan," heck, even Carver had his spike, chiefly, antagonism against the elder Hawke.

And, before anyone tells me that Varric didn't have a spike and was likeable despite it, he had a spike - he was funny. Bethany has some amusing dialogue, but little else. She is as three-dimensional as a piece of cardboard.

I really tried to like Bethany, but as she laying dying in the Deep Roads, I doubt even my character shed a tear.

Additionally, her lack of screentime compared to the other characters kills her chances for true character development.

I have to disagree.

I think she came off as more the average mage (in temperment) that is an apostate.  She struggles with wanting to be a normal girl and feeling like she's going against the Andraste's will by being an apostate.

Bethany also has a bit of guilt as well thinking she's holding her family back because they are protecting her.  She's also innocent and a bit naieve (though not as bad as Merril) due to being sheltered by her family for her protection.

She doesn't have some quirk that makes her stand out like the other characters but I think she is well written.

Modifié par Urazz, 25 avril 2011 - 01:09 .

[Thiefy]

did anyone else notice that when you get her back, she has a crop ton of points to level her up? and if you give her the same amount of points in something as your main character, she'll actually have superior stats?

[Gamer Ftw]

Urazz wrote...

XX55XX wrote...

Bethany was a terribly shallow character. I know BioWare was trying to make her a character that would appeal to everyone, but BioWare didn't give her a spike. She has no sharp edges, no spikes, nothing truly notable about her character. Anders had his thing with the Chantry, Merrill had her thing with blood magic and "saving her clan," heck, even Carver had his spike, chiefly, antagonism against the elder Hawke.

And, before anyone tells me that Varric didn't have a spike and was likeable despite it, he had a spike - he was funny. Bethany has some amusing dialogue, but little else. She is as three-dimensional as a piece of cardboard.

I really tried to like Bethany, but as she laying dying in the Deep Roads, I doubt even my character shed a tear.

Additionally, her lack of screentime compared to the other characters kills her chances for true character development.

I have to disagree.

I think she came off as more the average mage (in temperment) that is an apostate.  She struggles with wanting to be a normal girl and feeling like she's going against the Andraste's will by being an apostate.

Bethany also has a bit of guilt as well thinking she's holding her family back because they are protecting her.  She's also innocent and a bit naieve (though not as bad as Merril) due to being sheltered by her family for her protection.

She doesn't have some quirk that makes her stand out like the other characters but I think she is well written.

But andraste didn't say to lock mages in a tower so she did nothing wrong.

[Urazz]

Gamer Ftw wrote...

Urazz wrote...

XX55XX wrote...

Bethany was a terribly shallow character. I know BioWare was trying to make her a character that would appeal to everyone, but BioWare didn't give her a spike. She has no sharp edges, no spikes, nothing truly notable about her character. Anders had his thing with the Chantry, Merrill had her thing with blood magic and "saving her clan," heck, even Carver had his spike, chiefly, antagonism against the elder Hawke.

And, before anyone tells me that Varric didn't have a spike and was likeable despite it, he had a spike - he was funny. Bethany has some amusing dialogue, but little else. She is as three-dimensional as a piece of cardboard.

I really tried to like Bethany, but as she laying dying in the Deep Roads, I doubt even my character shed a tear.

Additionally, her lack of screentime compared to the other characters kills her chances for true character development.

I have to disagree.

I think she came off as more the average mage (in temperment) that is an apostate.  She struggles with wanting to be a normal girl and feeling like she's going against the Andraste's will by being an apostate.

Bethany also has a bit of guilt as well thinking she's holding her family back because they are protecting her.  She's also innocent and a bit naieve (though not as bad as Merril) due to being sheltered by her family for her protection.

She doesn't have some quirk that makes her stand out like the other characters but I think she is well written.

But andraste didn't say to lock mages in a tower so she did nothing wrong.

Yeah she believed Chantry propaganda about serving man by being in the Circle.  Andraste herself didn't say that.  Just that magic is meant to serve man not rule over him which in itself is very vague and can be interpreted in various ways.

[Sumerisle]

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

did anyone else notice that when you get her back, she has a crop ton of points to level her up? and if you give her the same amount of points in something as your main character, she'll actually have superior stats?

Maybe it's because of her updated equiment (armor)?

XX55XX wrote...

Bethany was a terribly shallow character. I know BioWare was trying to make her a character that would appeal to everyone, but BioWare didn't give her a spike. She has no sharp edges, no spikes, nothing truly notable about her character. Anders had his thing with the Chantry, Merrill had her thing with blood magic and "saving her clan," heck, even Carver had his spike, chiefly, antagonism against the elder Hawke.

And, before anyone tells me that Varric didn't have a spike and was likeable despite it, he had a spike - he was funny. Bethany has some amusing dialogue, but little else. She is as three-dimensional as a piece of cardboard.

I really tried to like Bethany, but as she laying dying in the Deep Roads, I doubt even my character shed a tear.

Additionally, her lack of screentime compared to the other characters kills her chances for true character development.

I don't think she needs to have a spike, because I see her as the balance of my party, not too righteous, not too rebelious. The same case as Wynne back in DA:O.
And not every people need to be awfully memorable, I mean, I didn't liked having a drunk companion like Oghren twice, just because some people think is funny to have lousy drunken friends...

[Sumerisle]

Urazz wrote...

Gamer Ftw wrote...

Urazz wrote...

XX55XX wrote...

Bethany was a terribly shallow character. I know BioWare was trying to make her a character that would appeal to everyone, but BioWare didn't give her a spike. She has no sharp edges, no spikes, nothing truly notable about her character. Anders had his thing with the Chantry, Merrill had her thing with blood magic and "saving her clan," heck, even Carver had his spike, chiefly, antagonism against the elder Hawke.

And, before anyone tells me that Varric didn't have a spike and was likeable despite it, he had a spike - he was funny. Bethany has some amusing dialogue, but little else. She is as three-dimensional as a piece of cardboard.

I really tried to like Bethany, but as she laying dying in the Deep Roads, I doubt even my character shed a tear.

Additionally, her lack of screentime compared to the other characters kills her chances for true character development.

I have to disagree.

I think she came off as more the average mage (in temperment) that is an apostate.  She struggles with wanting to be a normal girl and feeling like she's going against the Andraste's will by being an apostate.

Bethany also has a bit of guilt as well thinking she's holding her family back because they are protecting her.  She's also innocent and a bit naieve (though not as bad as Merril) due to being sheltered by her family for her protection.

She doesn't have some quirk that makes her stand out like the other characters but I think she is well written.

But andraste didn't say to lock mages in a tower so she did nothing wrong.

Yeah she believed Chantry propaganda about serving man by being in the Circle.  Andraste herself didn't say that.  Just that magic is meant to serve man not rule over him which in itself is very vague and can be interpreted in various ways.

Well, I know where the conversation is pointing and, let's forget a moment about the Maker, Andraste, etc.
The Chantry, The Circle and the Templars, I know you people don't give a damn about them, but tell me:
Does Uldred, Morrigan, Flemmeth, the Tevinter Magisters or even Anders do any good at all?
I know that "Anders helps the poor", but his later actions causes much more death and destruction than what he help.
I think that the Circle has some flaws, but is the best alternative to the free self ruled meges that later become abominations, blood mages or power-hunger witches.
If Bethany think's she has done something wrong for endangering his familiy by not going to the circle, is because she has consciousness, and is still a good girl who cares about the others, nothing more.

[dragonflight288]

Sumerisle


Well, I know where the conversation is pointing and, let's forget a moment about the Maker, Andraste, etc.
The Chantry, The Circle and the Templars, I know you people don't give a damn about them, but tell me:
Does Uldred, Morrigan, Flemmeth, the Tevinter Magisters or even Anders do any good at all?
I know that "Anders helps the poor", but his later actions causes much more death and destruction than what he help.
I think that the Circle has some flaws, but is the best alternative to the free self ruled meges that later become abominations, blood mages or power-hunger witches.
If Bethany think's she has done something wrong for endangering his familiy by not going to the circle, is because she has consciousness, and is still a good girl who cares about the others, nothing more.

And what of the Dalish Keepers? True Zathrian went off the deep end because hatred and vengeance drove him to despise even the innocent, Merrill made a deal with a demon, and Merethari willingly allowed herself to be possessed to save her first-do ANY of them deserve to be called selfish power hungry mages? Zathrian acted strictly for the good of his clan, that was his sole motivation. He condemned an entire group to save his people. I don't condone his actions but he wasn't trying to enslave anyone, he wasn't seeking demons. He just hated those werewolves. Merrill's motivation was entirely to restore what her people had lost, and use that lost knowledge to progress since they had lost so much. Merethari's motivation was keeping Merrill safe.

The Dalish elves do help their people. They are people like every other non-mage and do make mistakes, but they don't have the extremes you mentioned. Does their system need work? In my opinion...obviously it does. But it also proves that mages being free won't become another Tevinter.

As for Bethany, I do like her. I especially liked how she was all for breaking into the Amell estate and finding the will-and killing the slavers. That girl is sweet and somewhat naive, but is NOT afraid to get her hands dirty.

[dreadpiratesnugglecakes]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Sumerisle


Well, I know where the conversation is pointing and, let's forget a moment about the Maker, Andraste, etc.
The Chantry, The Circle and the Templars, I know you people don't give a damn about them, but tell me:
Does Uldred, Morrigan, Flemmeth, the Tevinter Magisters or even Anders do any good at all?
I know that "Anders helps the poor", but his later actions causes much more death and destruction than what he help.
I think that the Circle has some flaws, but is the best alternative to the free self ruled meges that later become abominations, blood mages or power-hunger witches.
If Bethany think's she has done something wrong for endangering his familiy by not going to the circle, is because she has consciousness, and is still a good girl who cares about the others, nothing more.

And what of the Dalish Keepers? True Zathrian went off the deep end because hatred and vengeance drove him to despise even the innocent, Merrill made a deal with a demon, and Merethari willingly allowed herself to be possessed to save her first-do ANY of them deserve to be called selfish power hungry mages? Zathrian acted strictly for the good of his clan, that was his sole motivation. He condemned an entire group to save his people. I don't condone his actions but he wasn't trying to enslave anyone, he wasn't seeking demons. He just hated those werewolves. Merrill's motivation was entirely to restore what her people had lost, and use that lost knowledge to progress since they had lost so much. Merethari's motivation was keeping Merrill safe.

The Dalish elves do help their people. They are people like every other non-mage and do make mistakes, but they don't have the extremes you mentioned. Does their system need work? In my opinion...obviously it does. But it also proves that mages being free won't become another Tevinter.

As for Bethany, I do like her. I especially liked how she was all for breaking into the Amell estate and finding the will-and killing the slavers. That girl is sweet and somewhat naive, but is NOT afraid to get her hands dirty.

Uh..what?  Let me read that again..quote {But it also proves that mages being free won't become another Tevinter. } end quote.  I'm sorry, but your lovely story about the Dalish elves doesn't prove jack sh*t about free mages not becoming another Tevinter Imperium.  It proves the Dalish would sacrifice themselves to save one of their clan, but it says nothing about mages.  Let's look at some recent mage behavior in DAO and DAII.

1.  Uldred cuts a deal with Loghain for Mages in Ferelden to be free.  Uldred and his followers apparently cut a deal with demons and attempt to kill everyone in the Ferelden tower that won't go with their plan.  Hmm.  Had freedom promised to them, and they became blood mages and killed people.  Yeah, that sounds like Tevinter 2.0 material.

2.  Mages in Kirkwall secretly meet with Templars who sympathize with them because of the mistreatment of the Kirkwall circle by Meredith.  Mages freak out, become abominations and kill the Templars and try to kill Hawke and his group, who were trying to broker the meeting.  Hmm.  Out of control and can't be trusted, even by those who are trying to help them.  Tevinter 2.0, here we come.

3.  Orsino..voice of reason.  Didn't want to fight Meredith.  Forced into it by stupid act of terrorism by character assassinated Anders; in the end, Orsino decides to become an abomination for..well, honestly, I don't know what his problem was; he just turned into a giant fat blob and started attacking my party even though we had been helping him.  More stupid writing but made me regret helping the stupid mages in the first place.  So even when you help them, in the end, the mages will turn on you.  Tevinter 2.0.

Freedom for mages isn't going to work; they're not just people who happen to do magic.  They are constantly under attack in their dreams; everyone has their weekness; pride; hunger, whatever.  They will always be a danger to those around them.  Want to eliminate the circles?  Fine, but the mages need to go and form their own state or go join Tevinter.  The examples I stated above show that while some may be content to play magic vibro fingers in the local brothel, many will not.  They want power and they want to use it.  There will always be conflict with the mages; can they be trusted to police them selves?  Maybe.  But the first time they don't there would have to be drastic consequences.  Get a first enchanter like Uldred out front and you're in for a few burning cities.

So, what's the bottom line?  Your examples made no sense.  Mine do.  My arguement stands.  Mages may deserve freedom but it needs to be somewhere where they can't hurt other people.  They can't be trusted living among regular people.  I'd say maybe people in Kirkwall could say a prayer for the mages but some stupid a**hole mage blew up the chantry to make a point about how mages should be free...not sure how that makes his point but..yeah.  Not wasting anymore time with this arguement because its too easy to win.

[dragonflight288]

....No need to argue. I don't argue that all mages should be free. Just like all nonmages should be free. There are criminals in every group. Some people are very effective archers or swordsmen. And they can be clinically insane. No demons needed. They are dangers to everyone around them, including themselves.

Mages will always be tempted by demons, so freeing them to live their lives without scrutiny? Not necessarily a good idea. Do the Circle's work? Not in my opinion. Is there a better way? Quite likely. Do I know it? Nope.

My point I was making was that the Dalish have mages who live free of the Circle and do not endanger anyone around them. Some do, and the clan must kill their keeper, but even then there is a system to prevent widespread damage. That was the point I was trying to get across. Nothing more or less. I apologize if I was unclear.

As for Orsino. He didn't want to fight the Templars and an act of terrorism forced the issue, but even that is debatable. Meredith was being driven insane by the idol, her own paranoia concerning blood magic (and she wasn't letting the city rule itself. She vetos everyone who stepped forward to become the viscount) so there wasn't anyone to go to for aid. And she was ready to attack Orsino when he tried to talk to the Grand Cleric before the Chantry went up in smoke. That conflict was inedible. Anders just unjustly rushed it.

And Orsino was helping Quentin (the mage who kills Leandra) with his research. Both Orsino and Meredith were corrupt by this point. Blood magic was rampant. It was on the verge of a Tevinter 2.0.

Samson put it best "Mages talk big about freedoms and such. But when you back them into a corner, they have options the rest of us don't. I have yet to meet a mage who hasn't taken them."

I say let them be watched because of their connection to the fade and demons, but no need to back them into corners unless you have evidence they are at fault for some crime or another. Templars are just as guilty as some mages are at the atrocities in Kirkwall.

If my explanation still remains unclear, I will try and make it even clearer, but I just don't think the Circle works because the Templars can be corrupted as easily as any mage, just the source of corruption is different.

[Masako52]

Bethany is cute, but not that interesting. She's a very stereotypical "cute little sister" who "wants to be normal." It's a cliche used a million times and she doesn't really have anything particular to her character that gives her personality. Don't get me wrong, I like her, but mostly because of her adorable character design(s) and voice. Maybe she would have expressed more personality if she was more central to the plot, but she's just not.

I much prefer Anders not only for personality, but seriously, Carver/Bethany don't get any specializations and aren't really work keeping. Anders is the best healer, it only tactically makes sense!