39 réponses à ce sujet

[ReallyRue]

Masako52 wrote...

Bethany is cute, but not that interesting. She's a very stereotypical "cute little sister" who "wants to be normal." It's a cliche used a million times and she doesn't really have anything particular to her character that gives her personality. Don't get me wrong, I like her, but mostly because of her adorable character design(s) and voice. Maybe she would have expressed more personality if she was more central to the plot, but she's just not.

I much prefer Anders not only for personality, but seriously, Carver/Bethany don't get any specializations and aren't really work keeping. Anders is the best healer, it only tactically makes sense!

Same here. Anders was a very complex character, and whether someone likes him or not, that's interesting stuff.

Although I liked Bethany, she didn't seem to have that much depth to her personality, and unlike Carver, she didn't appear to develop over the years, whereas he seems to confront some of his antagonism towards Hawke if you make him a Warden.

[LadyJaneGrey]

ReallyRue wrote...

Although I liked Bethany, she didn't seem to have that much depth to her personality, and unlike Carver, she didn't appear to develop over the years, whereas he seems to confront some of his antagonism towards Hawke if you make him a Warden.

If Bethany is in the Circle, doesn't she say something along the lines of "now I understand how horrible the Circle is for mages" and wants it to change?  She finally chooses a stance after years of indecision.

I could imagine her becoming a leader in the fight against the Templars even though she never loses her faith in the Maker and Andraste.

Won't argue that Grey Warden Carver has a nice arc though.  

[TheAwesomologist]

There's a bit of a fallacy when it comes to saying "Anders is the best Healer". He's possibly the only healer for most of the game. Panacea is actually a horrible talent to have turned on, his Vengeance tree is a great way to get him killed, and his only saving grace is an extra group heal and Regroup. What makes Anders (or any mage with the Creation tree) great is Heroic Aura and Haste. Bethany is actually a better support Mage with her access to Horror, Hex of Torment, and Misdirection Hex. She also looks better than greasy Anders.

While Bethany's story if she goes to the Circle adds a bit of drama as to who's side you choose, Bethany as a Grey Warden means you get her back earlier which makes killing Anders almost a no brainer.

[Sumerisle]

Masako52 wrote...

Bethany is cute, but not that interesting. She's a very stereotypical "cute little sister" who "wants to be normal." It's a cliche used a million times and she doesn't really have anything particular to her character that gives her personality. Don't get me wrong, I like her, but mostly because of her adorable character design(s) and voice. Maybe she would have expressed more personality if she was more central to the plot, but she's just not.

I much prefer Anders not only for personality, but seriously, Carver/Bethany don't get any specializations and aren't really work keeping. Anders is the best healer, it only tactically makes sense!

Cliche? Really? I think I play a good quantity of RPGs (pen and paper and computer since the DOS era) and I don't find her stereotypical.

ReallyRue wrote...

Same here. Anders was a very complex character, and whether someone likes him or not, that's interesting stuff.

Although I liked Bethany, she didn't seem to have that much depth to her personality, and unlike Carver, she didn't appear to develop over the years, whereas he seems to confront some of his antagonism towards Hawke if you make him a Warden.

Since I can define her personality, I think she isn't a bad/poor written character as some pople states.
I can define her personality as introverted, humble, devoted, gentle and possitive. It's not the personality that shines, but you like her because she is so nice. You care about her because is so sweet, and you want to prevent any harm to her because she is so pure.
Anders is indeed a very complex character, but one of his traits, the lack of responsability, commitment or consciousness, makes him a poor choice as a person. He doesn't seem to be commited to any cause he joins: He escaped the burden of being a Circle Mage, a Grey Warden, a Healer, a devoted defender of the mages's rights (he recognizes that his hate kills the spirit of justice), and finally he fails as a human being for blowing innocent people away, without regret and without hesitation.

[LobselVith8]

dreadpiratesnugglecakes wrote...

Uh..what?  Let me read that again..quote {But it also proves that mages being free won't become another Tevinter. } end quote.  I'm sorry, but your lovely story about the Dalish elves doesn't prove jack sh*t about free mages not becoming another Tevinter Imperium.  It proves the Dalish would sacrifice themselves to save one of their clan, but it says nothing about mages.  Let's look at some recent mage behavior in DAO and DAII.

We have the Chasind Wilders, the Avaar tribes, and the kingdom of Rivain with free mages in their society, so free mages =/= the Imperium, especially since Tevinter Magisters enslave both mages and non-mages.

dreadpiratesnugglecakes wrote...

1.  Uldred cuts a deal with Loghain for Mages in Ferelden to be free.  Uldred and his followers apparently cut a deal with demons and attempt to kill everyone in the Ferelden tower that won't go with their plan.  Hmm.  Had freedom promised to them, and they became blood mages and killed people.  Yeah, that sounds like Tevinter 2.0 material.

That's a pretty flimsy statement. Under that line of thinking, the Grey Warden mages using blood magic to fight the darkspawn makes the order another Imperium, when the two organizations have little in common. Uldred and the blood mages wanted to be emancipated, and they fought for their freedom. That doesn't make them anything like the Imperium.

dreadpiratesnugglecakes wrote...

2.  Mages in Kirkwall secretly meet with Templars who sympathize with them because of the mistreatment of the Kirkwall circle by Meredith.  Mages freak out, become abominations and kill the Templars and try to kill Hawke and his group, who were trying to broker the meeting.  Hmm.  Out of control and can't be trusted, even by those who are trying to help them.  Tevinter 2.0, here we come.

The presence of abominations or weak mages doesn't make them another Imperium. I don't see why you use weak arguments to push forward this statement when we have societies where there are free mages, and none of those societies try to emulate the slavery and oppression of the Tevinter Imperium.

dreadpiratesnugglecakes wrote...

3.  Orsino..voice of reason.  Didn't want to fight Meredith.  Forced into it by stupid act of terrorism by character assassinated Anders; in the end, Orsino decides to become an abomination for..well, honestly, I don't know what his problem was; he just turned into a giant fat blob and started attacking my party even though we had been helping him.  More stupid writing but made me regret helping the stupid mages in the first place.  So even when you help them, in the end, the mages will turn on you.  Tevinter 2.0.

First Enchanter Orsino is an antagonist who loses his mind; he doesn't try to recreate the Imperium. In contrast to the antagonist we have Bethany, a high ranking Circle mage who is nothing like Orsino. Siding with the mages means protecting them from the templars, not creating another Imperium.

dreadpiratesnugglecakes wrote...

Freedom for mages isn't going to work; they're not just people who happen to do magic.  They are constantly under attack in their dreams; everyone has their weekness; pride; hunger, whatever.  They will always be a danger to those around them.  Want to eliminate the circles?  Fine, but the mages need to go and form their own state or go join Tevinter. 

The free mages in the kingdom of Rivain, the Chasind Wilders, the Avaar tribes, and the Dalish clans disagree.

dreadpiratesnugglecakes wrote...

The examples I stated above show that while some may be content to play magic vibro fingers in the local brothel, many will not. 

Your examples didn't actually support your claim, because there are free mages in societies, and those places aren't trying to emulate the Imperium. Even the morally bankrupt town of Haven had free mages, and they were lead by the non-mage Reaver named Father Kolgrim.

dreadpiratesnugglecakes wrote...

They want power and they want to use it.  There will always be conflict with the mages; can they be trusted to police them selves?  Maybe.  But the first time they don't there would have to be drastic consequences.  Get a first enchanter like Uldred out front and you're in for a few burning cities.

You mean the man who lost a battle of wills to demons when he fought for the Circle to be freed from the Chantry and the templars?

dreadpiratesnugglecakes wrote...

So, what's the bottom line?  Your examples made no sense.  Mine do. 

 
Actually, your arguments don't make sense.

dreadpiratesnugglecakes wrote...

My arguement stands.  Mages may deserve freedom but it needs to be somewhere where they can't hurt other people.  They can't be trusted living among regular people. 

Do I need to repeat the societies with free mages who do interact with regular people?

dreadpiratesnugglecakes wrote...

I'd say maybe people in Kirkwall could say a prayer for the mages but some stupid a**hole mage blew up the chantry to make a point about how mages should be free...not sure how that makes his point but..yeah.  Not wasting anymore time with this arguement because its too easy to win.

I prefer Bethany's statement for why mages need to be free than your condemnation of all mages for the actions of a few of them.

[Sumerisle]

dragonflight288 wrote...

And what of the Dalish Keepers? True Zathrian went off the deep end because hatred and vengeance drove him to despise even the innocent, Merrill made a deal with a demon, and Merethari willingly allowed herself to be possessed to save her first-do ANY of them deserve to be called selfish power hungry mages? Zathrian acted strictly for the good of his clan, that was his sole motivation. He condemned an entire group to save his people. I don't condone his actions but he wasn't trying to enslave anyone, he wasn't seeking demons. He just hated those werewolves. Merrill's motivation was entirely to restore what her people had lost, and use that lost knowledge to progress since they had lost so much. Merethari's motivation was keeping Merrill safe. 

The Dalish elves do help their people. They are people like every other non-mage and do make mistakes, but they don't have the extremes you mentioned. Does their system need work? In my opinion...obviously it does. But it also proves that mages being free won't become another Tevinter.

As for Bethany, I do like her. I especially liked how she was all for breaking into the Amell estate and finding the will-and killing the slavers. That girl is sweet and somewhat naive, but is NOT afraid to get her hands dirty.

I intentionally omited the Dalish, because I think they can manage their mages (they kill their abominations, forbid the blood magic, etc.). This is maybe because they are wise and well organized, and/or because their tribes are so small that they can watch such number of mages closely.
Now you cannot extend this to the larger cities, because their rulers are no elders, and the common folk cannot tell if you are a blood mage, an abomination, a healer, or a First Enchanter, and I'm sure they don't care.

Modifié par Sumerisle, 26 avril 2011 - 12:16 .

[dragonflight288]

I agree that it's easier to watch mages in small groups. But as LobselVith8 pointed out, there are free mages in every society. Ah, no need to argue over this. I'm open for debate and discussions anytime, but I'm taking this thread back on topic for now.

I very much prefer Bethany in my party over Anders. I like Anders and respect what he wants, but half the time I don't know if the person talking is the Anders I remember from Awakening or the corrupted Justice. They are one and the same. Anders doesn't even know where he ends and Justice begins.

I just don't like what Justice made Anders become, or what Anders made Justice become, or whatever happened there. Not the most logical reason, but that is my reason.

Modifié par dragonflight288, 26 avril 2011 - 12:27 .

[LobselVith8]

dragonflight288 wrote...

I very much prefer Bethany in my party over Anders. I like Anders and respect what he wants, but half the time I don't know if the person talking is the Anders I remember from Awakening or the corrupted Justice. They are one and the same. Anders doesn't even know where he ends and Justice begins.

I just don't like what Justice made Anders become, or what Anders made Justice become, or whatever happened there. Not the most logical reason, but that is my reason.

I like Bethany a lot. There's not the antagonism that there is with Carver, and I get much more of an apostate POV with her as the protagonist's sister than I do with Hawke as an illegal mage. I get a better sense of the danger that Kirkwall poses because she talks about her concerns about the templars and dealing with threats of people who know she's actually a mage, and I feel more of a connection because I care about what happens to her. When my rogue Hawke returned from the Deep Roads and saw Cullen in Gamlen's house, I wished he could do more than give an anrgy reponse to the Knight-Captain and move aside automatically, especially when he previously killed an Ancient Rockwraith and an Abomination Profane.

Rivalry with Anders makes it more pronounced that they are struggling for control and aren't as symbiotically tied as Anders initially claims. That said, I wonder whether sparing Anders or siding with Sebastian would be better overall: is Anders going to help with the mage revolution, or completely lose control and become as vengeful as he was in "Dissent;" in contrast, the heir to Starkhaven can vow vengence against Anders and see Anders in every mage and apostate, or he can be persuaded to help Hawke, where he might have much more tolerant policies for mages if he became Prince now that Anders is dead.

[Sumerisle]

dragonflight288 wrote...

I agree that it's easier to watch mages in small groups. But as LobselVith8 pointed out, there are free mages in every society. Ah, no need to argue over this. I'm open for debate and discussions anytime, but I'm taking this thread back on topic for now.

I very much prefer Bethany in my party over Anders. I like Anders and respect what he wants, but half the time I don't know if the person talking is the Anders I remember from Awakening or the corrupted Justice. They are one and the same. Anders doesn't even know where he ends and Justice begins.

I just don't like what Justice made Anders become, or what Anders made Justice become, or whatever happened there. Not the most logical reason, but that is my reason.

Yes, I guess arguing pretty pointless, because no one has seen the other societies that you and LobselVith8 mention, at least first hand (because they don't appear in any game). Until Bioware show us those alternatives and how they actually work, I'll keep thinking that the Circle of Magi is the best choice for the mages (but again Kirkwall's isn't the best example at all). 
I feel sorry for Anders and Justice, too. Both of them were good companions back in Awakening, too bad that they couldn't cope in the same body. What Andrers seeks is indeed a noble goal, but he dearly misses the path.

As for Bethany, she's my choice because she's moderated, calm, and gentle. I tend to build my team based on good natured people, so she is allways my first choice;). When I saw Anders healing people in Darktown I thought that he would fit in my team too. But then he loses control and compels me to kill templars, and when I think he starts to regain control (Justice quest), he seems to act strangely and I realize that he is planning something odd. I was really shocked when I finally discovered the exploding truth, he went from almost redeem himself to jumping right into to the flames of the oblivion.  Very sad, indeed.

Modifié par Sumerisle, 27 avril 2011 - 11:31 .

[Masako52]

Sumerisle wrote...

Masako52 wrote...

Bethany is cute, but not that interesting. She's a very stereotypical "cute little sister" who "wants to be normal." It's a cliche used a million times and she doesn't really have anything particular to her character that gives her personality. Don't get me wrong, I like her, but mostly because of her adorable character design(s) and voice. Maybe she would have expressed more personality if she was more central to the plot, but she's just not.

I much prefer Anders not only for personality, but seriously, Carver/Bethany don't get any specializations and aren't really work keeping. Anders is the best healer, it only tactically makes sense!

Cliche? Really? I think I play a good quantity of RPGs (pen and paper and computer since the DOS era) and I don't find her stereotypical.

Since I can define her personality, I think she isn't a bad/poor written character as some pople states.
I can define her personality as introverted, humble, devoted, gentle and possitive. It's not the personality that shines, but you like her because she is so nice. You care about her because is so sweet, and you want to prevent any harm to her because she is so pure.
Anders is indeed a very complex character, but one of his traits, the lack of responsability, commitment or consciousness, makes him a poor choice as a person. He doesn't seem to be commited to any cause he joins: He escaped the burden of being a Circle Mage, a Grey Warden, a Healer, a devoted defender of the mages's rights (he recognizes that his hate kills the spirit of justice), and finally he fails as a human being for blowing innocent people away, without regret and without hesitation.

I'm not saying you shouldn't like Bethany, because it's great that you do. But being a "nice girl" is a cliche. She's the cute little sister - that in itself is not interesting. She's the "magical girl who wants to be normal" - that also describes a ton of female characters with something that makes them "special" or "different." These aren't interesting to me because they are overdone and expected. Bethany's personality is easy to glean from her first lines. She fits right into a character type and does nothing that surprises the audience.

"Pure" characters aren't interesting because they aren't realistic. And they seem like Mary Sues (female characters who are so sweet and perfect, aka, have no realistic personality.) It's not that Bethany shouldn't be nice, or shouldn't want to fit in. It's that she needs MORE than that to make her unique. An ideal character is one that has flaws. You talked about Anders - he's a far better character in the sense that he's more interesting and realistic. He's not some perfect shadow of a real human being. As you said, the sins he committed are what makes him interesting, especially when we compare him to his self in Awakening. I'm not saying Bethany has to blow up a building to become a more interesting character, but she can't be Little Miss Perfect either. She fits too many stereotypes and doesn't break them.

Bethany's story does become a little more interesting if you let her become a Gray Warden. And like I said, I enjoy her because she's cute, but she still does very little for the imagination. She's ultimately forgettable. Not a "real" character like Anders, or Fenris, or Isabela - characters with dilemmas and personality flaws, in addition to factors that redeem them. Just my opinion.

[Annie_Dear]

XX55XX wrote...

Bethany was a terribly shallow character. I know BioWare was trying to make her a character that would appeal to everyone, but BioWare didn't give her a spike. She has no sharp edges, no spikes, nothing truly notable about her character. Anders had his thing with the Chantry, Merrill had her thing with blood magic and "saving her clan," heck, even Carver had his spike, chiefly, antagonism against the elder Hawke.

And, before anyone tells me that Varric didn't have a spike and was likeable despite it, he had a spike - he was funny. Bethany has some amusing dialogue, but little else. She is as three-dimensional as a piece of cardboard.

I really tried to like Bethany, but as she laying dying in the Deep Roads, I doubt even my character shed a tear.

Additionally, her lack of screentime compared to the other characters kills her chances for true character development.

This.

[Sumerisle]

Masako52 wrote...

Sumerisle wrote...

Masako52 wrote...

Bethany is cute, but not that interesting. She's a very stereotypical "cute little sister" who "wants to be normal." It's a cliche used a million times and she doesn't really have anything particular to her character that gives her personality. Don't get me wrong, I like her, but mostly because of her adorable character design(s) and voice. Maybe she would have expressed more personality if she was more central to the plot, but she's just not.

I much prefer Anders not only for personality, but seriously, Carver/Bethany don't get any specializations and aren't really work keeping. Anders is the best healer, it only tactically makes sense!

Cliche? Really? I think I play a good quantity of RPGs (pen and paper and computer since the DOS era) and I don't find her stereotypical.

Since I can define her personality, I think she isn't a bad/poor written character as some pople states.
I can define her personality as introverted, humble, devoted, gentle and possitive. It's not the personality that shines, but you like her because she is so nice. You care about her because is so sweet, and you want to prevent any harm to her because she is so pure.
Anders is indeed a very complex character, but one of his traits, the lack of responsability, commitment or consciousness, makes him a poor choice as a person. He doesn't seem to be commited to any cause he joins: He escaped the burden of being a Circle Mage, a Grey Warden, a Healer, a devoted defender of the mages's rights (he recognizes that his hate kills the spirit of justice), and finally he fails as a human being for blowing innocent people away, without regret and without hesitation.

I'm not saying you shouldn't like Bethany, because it's great that you do. But being a "nice girl" is a cliche. She's the cute little sister - that in itself is not interesting. She's the "magical girl who wants to be normal" - that also describes a ton of female characters with something that makes them "special" or "different." These aren't interesting to me because they are overdone and expected. Bethany's personality is easy to glean from her first lines. She fits right into a character type and does nothing that surprises the audience.

"Pure" characters aren't interesting because they aren't realistic. And they seem like Mary Sues (female characters who are so sweet and perfect, aka, have no realistic personality.) It's not that Bethany shouldn't be nice, or shouldn't want to fit in. It's that she needs MORE than that to make her unique. An ideal character is one that has flaws. You talked about Anders - he's a far better character in the sense that he's more interesting and realistic. He's not some perfect shadow of a real human being. As you said, the sins he committed are what makes him interesting, especially when we compare him to his self in Awakening. I'm not saying Bethany has to blow up a building to become a more interesting character, but she can't be Little Miss Perfect either. She fits too many stereotypes and doesn't break them.

Bethany's story does become a little more interesting if you let her become a Gray Warden. And like I said, I enjoy her because she's cute, but she still does very little for the imagination. She's ultimately forgettable. Not a "real" character like Anders, or Fenris, or Isabela - characters with dilemmas and personality flaws, in addition to factors that redeem them. Just my opinion.

Yes I see your point. She is too good to be realistic.
Well, in this dark fantasy world , is a rare thing to see such kind of people but they exist, like Elthina, Wynne, Mhairi, Ser Otto, or Bethany. Why they cannot? If there are epically bad people like Loghain, Uldred, Ser Alrik, Meredith, why not good people too?
Anyway, I think Bioware is well aware of this, and they enjoy killing the good and pure characters, because it causes more pain to us (or to me in this case).
The rest of the companions, are more like normal people, with flaws and troubles like everybody. I find Varric a very enigmatic character, Fenris is a noble man, troubled, twisted, but redimible after all. Sebastian is a gentleman, righteous but very impulsive. Merril is kind, but very naive and unaware of the dangers of the world.  Aveline is a bit stubborn, but a good woman. Isabella is a ... well you know, but she has a golden heart.
As for Bethany, for being "ultimately forgettable" and "three-dimensional as a piece of cardboard"  I find remarkable the fact that some people (me included:P) care a lot about her and still suffer when she is taken from us.

[dragonflight288]

If Bethany has a flaw, I think it has more to do with her being over-cautious or too aggressive when she makes up her mind in something. We get the clearest picture from her what living like an apostate is like. When she's in the party in act 1, she makes it very clear she has some very serious concerns when talking to the templars. But when it comes to Gamlen and Leandra, she was the one to suggest they break into the estate and kill the slavers so they could get the will. Because she was the one who brought it up, I think she can easily be ruthless when she wants to be. Most of the time she doesn't because she doesn't want to draw attention to herself. She is an apostate in a city full of templars with a very cruel circle.

[SirGladiator]

Bethany is definitely my favorite character in DA2, she and Leliana are my favorites in the DA universe overall, and they're a LOT alike. She really does have a deep and interesting personality. She's family-centered, she will do anything to help her family. She's good, despite the fact that most mages, and templars, in this game are crazy and/or evil, she stands out as a force for good. She grows and learns over the course of the game, and I know that when she ends up in the Circle, after she gets out she reveals how much she learned, that she used to think the running from the circle was bad, until she learned what it was like when she stopped, and now she wants to fight for freedom for mages everywhere. She's a natural ally for Morrigan and leader of the pro-mages forces in DA3, she's extremely powerful, strong willed, and determined to fight for freedom for mages, and the cause of good and right generally. She's very much a mage version of Leliana, they're both smart, beautiful, very strong willed and powerful, determined to always do the right thing, and they're both extremely important. I hope Bethany is a full-time companion for whoever the main character is in DA3, and that we get plenty of DLC for her in DA2 as well, she's so awesome.

[Ryzaki]

Everytime someone says Bethany is unrealistic I sigh.

No she's not. I know several people like her. You may not find her realistic but that doesn't make it so.