412 réponses à ce sujet

[Wulfram]

Commanding a warship while wearing a little black dress doesn't really make much sense to me, so I don't really expect Bioware to design their sitting animations with that in mind.

[Endurium]

She isn't commanding the ship 24/7; everyone needs breaks and crews would really work in shifts even though that's not seen in this game series. It'd be a lot like Star Trek though, while in space.

In my opinion, if a developer is going to provide a female option for the protagonist, they ought to give her female animations and postures to go with it, rather than recycling male animations and postures. Sure the latter might seem more efficient for business, but then so would providing just one gender for the protagonist. If you're going to do something, don't do it halfway.

Some will write it off as a minor thing to be ignored, but with 3D games becoming more 'lifelike' in many other respects, it'd be nice if they paid attention to these 'minor details' we see in the omnipresent main character.

[didymos1120]

Endurium wrote...

She isn't commanding the ship 24/7; everyone needs breaks and crews would really work in shifts even though that's not seen in this game series. It'd be a lot like Star Trek though, while in space.

How is this relevant?  If you're playing, then Shep's on duty.

[Interactive Civilian]

didymos1120 wrote...

How is this relevant?  If you're playing, then Shep's on duty.

Good thing Shepard is running the ship, then. No one to get angry at her for being drunk on duty.

[Raiil]

Endurium wrote...

In my opinion, if a developer is going to provide a female option for the protagonist, they ought to give her female animations and postures to go with it, rather than recycling male animations and postures. Sure the latter might seem more efficient for business, but then so would providing just one gender for the protagonist. If you're going to do something, don't do it halfway.

Unless someone can define how a female walks- and honestly, no one can, since we're not all shaped alike- the point is moot. I can understand wanting a different animation, or one that might be more realistic to Fem Shep's body type, but asking for a feminine walk is like asking the devs to somehow make it so Shepard walks just like we do, individual for each game. As a woman myself, I walk differently from mother, my sisters, my aunts, and my female cousins, and I share some similiar body traits with all of them.

Maybe asking for a 'typical' womanly walk would be more in line, but you (editorial you) would also need to take into consideration her general shape, any potential spine curvature, military posture, shoulder ratio, bust size, etc. Creating a realistic walk is fairly difficult when even just a handful of issues are taken into consideration. 

[Endurium]

didymos1120 wrote...

Endurium wrote...

She isn't commanding the ship 24/7; everyone needs breaks and crews would really work in shifts even though that's not seen in this game series. It'd be a lot like Star Trek though, while in space.

How is this relevant?  If you're playing, then Shep's on duty.

Time stops until Shep gives the order to go somewhere, so there's room for relaxing the on duty/off duty stuff since the game doesn't do shifts. Besides, if maleshep can wear a colonist outfit to look super casual and buff, why can't femshep wear a short dress to look super casual and feminine?

As for the female animations and postures - it wouldn't be that hard to come up with an average. Men and women walk past my house all the time, and while the walk looks similar from the side, it's quite different from the rear, due to how the hips move, in part. In many ways women and men share the same poses, but sitting is one area where they typically differ.

[SennenScale]

Endurium wrote...
If you're going to do something, don't do it halfway.

That's what I was trying to get at. I was fine playing the first Fable even though there was no female option because I was never offered it in the first place. But if you're going to put it there, do it well. I must admit Femshep is pretty good in this regard compared to some other games, though there can always be improvements.

Valentia X wrote...
Maybe asking for a 'typical' womanly walk would be more in line, but you (editorial you) would also need to take into consideration her general shape, any potential spine curvature, military posture, shoulder ratio, bust size, etc. Creating a realistic walk is fairly difficult when even just a handful of issues are taken into consideration.

The devs don't need to make it perfect, but making it a little more believable couldn't hurt. Shep is a small-ish woman with some defined musculature, so a small female marine, or possibly even a larger teen girl in ROTC would be an adequate model, no? Or worst came to worst, reuse the ME1 animations. No need to make a new one if the first one wasn't broken, right?

[operageek]

Captain Crash wrote...

Thanks for the feedback,  I think you may have lost the direction I intended with the animations.  I dont want them girly either but I do feel she needs something unique to her like in the last game.  Im lost with what you mean however with "True gender equality". That doesnt mean everyone looks and acts the same. There are always going distinctions between males and females. Especially in the way they walk or posture.  Femshep in casual gear is slim and athletic.  Her walking and posturing animation dont represent this at all.

I agree that I dont want femsheps animations to look "girly" either but she should walk and posture like a male when she is female.  Theres a big difference between the girly and animations and something like looks feminine and represents how a female soldier should look.    Im assuming you havent played Mass Effect 1 because she did have her own rig in that game.  It wasnt girly but did help define her a lot more as it was still feminine.  Thats why alot of players are upset it was removed because she has lost some of her disinction.  It wasnt at all a girly animation but helped make her stand apart from male Shep.    Like someone who posted on the last page it seems you've grown used to this one rig animation and have embedded it into your femshep style.   Nothing at all wrong with that, but I think most people posting seem to want a return to the way femshep used to move in the Original title.  Something feminine and unique for her. (Not girly!)  Especially since as I said in my first paragraph, she has a slim and athletic build.

As mentioned on the last page, there shouldnt be inherently male and female animations.  The problem is there are those distinctions between the two and ME2 showed numerous examples.  My concern going into ME3 is that Bioware continues to make a distinction.  Or they make an action more "macho" then needed which they then use on femshep and expect us to accept our nimble adept in light armour will do something like that.

Sorry, I think I mispoke (miswrote?) with the 'true gender equality' thing.  I was thinking of the gender-specific dialogue issue, rather than animations; it was more meant as a comment on how much fun it is to play as a female in a position of power whose abilities are never (apart from a random merc in ME 2, and Harkin's condescending 'princess' in ME1) called into question based on gender.  I have found sometimes in games that gender-specific dialogue rubs me the wrong way  – for example, female only romances can focus overly much on how ‘pretty’ a female character is rather than, say, their intelligence, courage, or leadership skills.  I meant to express my happiness ME doesn’t do this and that the characters relate to and compliment a male and female Shep the same way.  I didn't mean it as a criticism of the request for more gender specific dialogue, as I don't imagine that's the sort of thing you had in mind, but more as a general compliment to the way ME's dialogue deals with gender.

As for the animation rig, I think you are spot on - I have grown attached to the ME 2 one, and I think that when people suggest they want a more feminine style of movement, I have a knee-jerk reaction against that. I have played ME 1, but it's been a while, and I never did play it as a male, so I don’t have much of a point of reference there.  I will have to take another look at it (it's about time for a replay anyway!).  In either case, I imagine that for me there would be a major distinction between a return to the rig for ME 1 - which I certainly wouldn’t begrudge - and something like in DA 2, which (though I know people who liked it) I personally found jarring and overdone.

In the end it’s just a different personal preference, as when I look at the way she moves I saw years of
military training and running around in armour, rather than masculinity.  Because of that, I am afraid of what a change to a more feminine model might do to the Shep I envision; but I certainly appreciate the desire for female Shep to be recognized as unique and separate, and you are undoubtedly accurate that her animation (even if I do happen to like it) is the result of the fact that the developers have realized Shepard with a man in mind.  It is a slightly different set of problems that bother me - the fact that Shepard is inevitably referred to as ‘he’ in interviews and chats with the developers, the lack of screencaps featuring her, etc – but we both definitely want a more female friendly focus to the franchise, and I can totally see where you are coming from.

(Edited for formatting)

Modifié par operageek, 02 mai 2011 - 06:17 .

[Captain Crash]

AngryFrozenWater sent me a pm a couple of days ago. He sent it over to Brenon Holmes who stated that our concerns focus on a few departments. He therefore sent the link to Preston Watamaniuk (Lead Designer) for a look.

[LeonBrass]

Regarding the numbers of male vs female shepard play thrus ... I wonder how they counted me>>>
1 male, 7 female.. and still playing. I suspect they only count the first one but I don't know for sure.
On topic --- agree with OP 100%
Way past when they could do this for ME3, but for the future - why not hire real male and a female military pesonnel and load them with weights to simulate equipment load outs and do some motion capture??? Heck, even filming or studying film of male and female soldiers at "work" would help a lot.
There may be fewer (or more!) differences than we think.

[idoless24]

I agree with every point except for the animations.

The animations for Femhawke in DA2 were awful in my opinion. Her hips were swaying monstrously even while running full speed and it simply looked ridiculous.

I would hope to keep the same running animations from ME2.

[PMC65]

Wulfram wrote...

Commanding a warship while wearing a little black dress doesn't really make much sense to me, so I don't really expect Bioware to design their sitting animations with that in mind.

Even in jeans I sit like a girl ... The way that femshep not only sat but also walked was just torture to watch. I blame it on Miranda ****ing with femshep during project Lazarus just to make sure that she wasn't real competition with the boys.      {EDI: That was a joke.}

[Notho]

I support this thread.

[NM7]

idoless24 wrote...

I agree with every point except for the animations.

The animations for Femhawke in DA2 were awful in my opinion. Her hips were swaying monstrously even while running full speed and it simply looked ridiculous.

I would hope to keep the same running animations from ME2.

Nobody is asking for her to move like LadyHawke. There is a middle ground between the hip swinging run of DA2 and the hulking gorilla run of ME2. I'm sure most people would be happy to see the old ME1 animations come back.

[Captain Crash]

Exactly what Akari said.

idoless24 wrote...

I agree with every point except for the animations.

The animations for Femhawke in DA2 were awful in my opinion. Her hips were swaying monstrously even while running full speed and it simply looked ridiculous.

A few people are stating that they disagree with this point based on the fact they didnt like Lady Hawke. Which is rather confusing. Im assuming people are skimming through the points and not throughly reading it therefore jumping to odd conclusions.   Not once does the OP say that femshep should look more like Lady Hawke, nor does it try to compare them.

The reason she is mentioned is because the Origins team saw that females needed their own rigs for DA2.  They therefore made a progressive change and included them to help immersion and the experience (whether you like the animation for Hawke is irrelevant here, the point is they went out their way to add new ones).   Mass Effect however went backwards.  They had a unique female rig in the first game which for some unknown reason was removed for ME2.   


It's fustrating because one division of Bioware moved forwards and another went backwards in the immersion of their female protagonist.

Modifié par Captain Crash, 04 mai 2011 - 03:15 .

[Fiery Phoenix]

Captain Crash wrote...

(...)

A few people are stating that they disagree with this point based on the fact they didnt like Lady Hawke. Which is rather confusing. Im assuming people are skimming through the points and not throughly reading it therefore jumping to odd conclusions.   Not once does the OP say that femshep should look more like Lady Hawke, nor does it try to compare them.

The reason she is mentioned is because the Origins team saw that females needed their own rigs for DA2.  They therefore made a progressive change and included them to help immersion and the experience (whether you like the animation for Hawke is irrelevant here, the point is they went out their way to add new ones).   Mass Effect however went backwards.  They had a unique female rig in the first game which for some unknown reason was removed for ME2.   

It's fustrating because one division of Bioware moved forwards and another went backwards in the immersion of their female protagonist.

+1

That is *precisely* what we're trying to address.

[Puzzlewell]

I would say the clipping issues and gender specific dialogue are the things I would like the most. That and... I know it's been addressed elsewhere but I'm still a bit burned with how FemShep had a slightly different experience at the climax of LotSB because certain sound files don't trigger right for FemShep as they do MaleShep. It kind of crushed me a bit to watch a video of it with MaleShep and see just how much more emotional the scene is when the sound triggers properly.

[lolwut666]

I hope they make her melee attacks different.

I doesn't make a lot of sense that a small woman like FemShep would be doing power moves like the male Shepard.

She should have a more speedy fighting style, while ManShep's is more rough.

[Abramis brama]

lolwut666 wrote...

I hope they make her melee attacks different.

I doesn't make a lot of sense that a small woman like FemShep would be doing power moves like the male Shepard.

She should have a more speedy fighting style, while ManShep's is more rough.

No, they should just up the muscle mass in Femshep instead of her having those noodle arms.

[AngelicMachinery]

Abramis brama wrote...

lolwut666 wrote...

I hope they make her melee attacks different.

I doesn't make a lot of sense that a small woman like FemShep would be doing power moves like the male Shepard.

She should have a more speedy fighting style, while ManShep's is more rough.

No, they should just up the muscle mass in Femshep instead of her having those noodle arms.

Femme Shep really could use a bit more muscle,  particularly the soldier.  I'm not suggesting a body builder build or anything,  but, as is she looks more like a gymnast than a soldier.

[NKKKK]

She does need a bit of biceps

[Abramis brama]

AngelicMachinery wrote...

Femme Shep really could use a bit more muscle,  particularly the soldier.  I'm not suggesting a body builder build or anything,  but, as is she looks more like a gymnast than a soldier.

Definitely not bodybuilder but just little bit more bulky. Like NKKK said the arms needs some work and stronger looking legs would be good also.

[Llyriel]

I generally agree with the OP - especially about the animations. 90% of the time they're fine, but the sitting positions are a bit weird. I mean, especially where one arm's to the side (like when talking to Aria) and the elbow "resting" on the edge... often ends up looking like it's floating, and just weird. I mean... there's looking military, and then there's try-to-hard-to-look-like-a-man kind of look. I don't want my character to look like she wishes she was a guy.

The thing I don't want to change is the reference to her as "Sir". I dunno, I think that's fine. If some people refer to her as "ma-am" that's fine, but "Sir" sounds right to me... I see it more as a military term rather than a gender term, but maybe I'm just weird.

Also, please don't give her giant boobs in ME3, and please give her a bit more muscle.
She can use a granade launcher for f'sake, what does she need spindly arms for!

~*Llyriel