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[Captain Crash]

Thought I would add some pics to highlight a few of the inconsistencies that we femshep players experience over the course of ME2 and to again show why its important for us these things are put right in ME3.   As they say a picture can speak a thousand words and these clearly express certain issues.

Credit of pics to inSpectre X


Clipping. As CalamityRanger said on the previous page these are some of the key moments of the game where your developing your relationships and building your play through.  

These points of immersion are really spoilt by needless clipping issues.   Additionally it just shows how using the same animation frame doesnt work on femshep. 







Texture Inconsistancies between genders.

We already know male Shepard had more time spent on him then femshep.  But since I havent yet played as male Shepard on ME2 I was suprised by these pics. Its clear that his armour and casual textures went through an additional level of polish compared to femshep.  

Casual Gear always seemed rough to me on femshep.  I didnt think however it was exclusiive to her so these images came as quite a suprise.   I quite like the casual colonist gear but the textures are so unpolished its hard to wear.  







Theres a few more in the album: Here


I dont want to dwell on the these issues too much. They cant and wont be changed in ME2.  Theres still a lot of polishing time between now and ME3 release however so I hope Bioware can take the time to polish up these texture inconsistancies that were displayed.    

Modifié par Captain Crash, 05 mai 2011 - 12:21 .

[QwibQwib]

Omg, no wonder.

When I played ME2 for the first time, I noticed that femshep textures were lowres, I thought that, they made it like that cuz of the console thing. But now, looking at inSpectre X album ( thank you so much) it makes me think that, in the end femshep is a second class hero. Going back to:

"...Our goal has and will continue to be to ensure that female and male Shepard have a truly equitable experience and that no one group of people feel left out." - Jesse Houston

that's not equality.

[Abramis brama]

Never actually realized that Male Shep actually has higher resolution armor. Kind of disappointed at Bioware now.
I hope they give special care for the animation inr ME3. Though I hope they don't go overboard like in DA2.

[M3cHr3p71l]

*weird Double post*

Modifié par M3cHr3p71l, 06 mai 2011 - 06:21 .

[M3cHr3p71l]

I wanted see a thread like that since long time ago. Really you have stolen my thoughts. I think I love you.
I started ME universe from ME2 (I haven't finished ME1 yet) and I have never played as Male , so here it there is some game aspect I can say nothing, yeah, despite spoilers.
Ok, I am going to begin in order:
About animations, I think ME2 animations are good generally (ok, running can improve) and, the most important, don't fall into stereotypes (they really kill me). The animations have contributed with their bit to create that heroine, not only in game, also inside of my mind. Kara (my Shep) movements, FemShep movements. Then I knew -evidences increase by the minutes- that movements don't belong to her, however her male counterpart. With Sheploo in mind, copy and paste. What the hell..?!. This is disrespectful to her and all of us who their Shep is FemShep or simply have playing with her.
The accurate examples you have taken, reflects -as you well say- that lack of interest by part of bioware. The little they made different (the suit) and they implement it badly. The lower resolution of FemShep in comparison with MaleShep (hair, armor, clothes and more).
My opinion is that bioware's policy is centered around their "iconic Shep", especially nowadays with the obsession to get more costumers instead care about people they have already reached.
I have got off the subject, so I come back.
I disagree with

No woman would sit like that in a dress. Even in armour, this posture doesn’t look correct

. Like this excellent post of @Valentia X say:

Unless someone can define how a female walks- and honestly, no one can, since we're not all shaped alike- the point is moot. I can understand wanting a different animation, or one that might be more realistic to Fem Shep's body type, but asking for a feminine walk is like asking the devs to somehow make it so Shepard walks just like we do, individual for each game. As a woman myself, I walk differently from mother, my sisters, my aunts, and my female cousins, and I share some similiar body traits with all of them.

Maybe asking for a 'typical' womanly walk would be more in line, but you (editorial you) would also need to take into consideration her general shape, any potential spine curvature, military posture, shoulder ratio, bust size, etc. Creating a realistic walk is fairly difficult when even just a handful of issues are taken into consideration.

Hence, You can't say that. You are generalizing women's behaviour. With the dress OK due to obvious reasons, but with armor I don't see why. Personally I like that position. I agree with @Interactive Civilian and @operageek on that.
The rest of the point is impeccably written. I think it is not necessary I say that a Femshep's own animation should, better said, MUST be in ME3. Although all points securely fall in deaf ears. They will give us a little of placebo and fine.

About romances, I have no much to say because I didn't. But I already don't talk with Jacob. No words. According to I have seen, I think bioware have to put several options to start a relation and no only one way. The same during relationship's evolution.

Gender's point: more particular situations is fine while they don't contribute to stereotype.

Armor: I like a lot ME2 armors and ME1 too. Although some modifications -pragmatic changes- would be not bad. Please, the breasts don't increase megically as Ashley's do.

I totally agree a with the rest of the points, although the last deserves a commentary.
ME2 is the clipping game. And if you use flycam, everywhere, any time.
Really I hate all of these "ghost" happenings: the eyes, pending lesson, continuously are overlaping eyelids (I hate that!!), the hair and helmet, armor, accesories the same, the armor and the chest, Shep and environment... a endless list.
These big fails are stupids simply fails, not presents in others games. Fix it in ME3!

I would add more presence of FemShep in marketing or at least a neutral marketing. But it seems more Sci-fi than reality - just to say a simile.

Finally, I have to congrat to the people made this thread: -- Cpt.Crash, jwalker, scampermax, Akari Tenshi, ryn and Jamie -- and everybody who have posted constructive comments here. A thread like that deserves at least a reply from bioware.
In any way, We are here, our voice won't fade !!

                                                       - M3cHr3p71l

Modifié par M3cHr3p71l, 06 mai 2011 - 06:22 .

[GuardianAngel470]

Um, I completely disagree with point number five. Not because the concept behind it is flawed but because ME2 had tons of instances where the character's gender played a role.

I played ME2 over 12 times as a male. I've heard every conversation in a male specific context over 10 times each (sometimes I skipped things) and so when I finally, finally played as a female Shepard to get a few achievements in ME1 and ME2 I noticed every single time a dialog option was different than what I was used to.

Grunt, Mordin, the female blue suns merc on Omega, Mordin, the Shaman, and tons more are in the game already. People already say she instead of he, many say ma'am instead of sir (with one exception that I noticed) and of course many of the crew's dialog, especially Kelly's, is different.

Other than that I agree with the OP, so long as it doesn't make them push story elements to the sideline. And yes, I feel the same way about Mshep.

[midfield52]

 it would just be nice to maybe have the option of wearing something like Liara wore in the DLC of LOTSB, maybe without the coat. That wouldn't be so bad, right? ;p

This

[Captain Crash]

@ Guardian

I had to read that a couple of times mainly because you stated "I completely disagree with point number five" only for your next sentence to say you don't disagree with it. Essentially what your saying is there are more circumstances then we think and there shouldn't be too many more ontop because that will create too much of a dividing line. Anyway glad you can clarify a few points because you played both genders several times.

From what I gathered there are several instances where gender is acknowledged but it seems Bioware have done it quite seamlessly so its hard to notice. Which credit too them, its been done so well it sound and feel natural so its easy to miss. Which is great! ie, ma'am instead of sir. Nice to see these little variations.

However they just are little variations on words. In your own words "a dozen instances", most of which are one word changes in a 30-50 hour game really isn't a lot in the grand scale. Hence why everyone up to this point has said they would like to see more. The two examples in the OP point out where there really is a noticeable difference and a distinction. Another I missed for example in the OP are at the start where Miri says "...but shes only one woman"


But I get also the fact there needs to be a balance. We dont want over saturation of it and part of what makes both Shepard's great is the fact they are genderless in a sense. Both have dialogue and choices that are the same. Still a little distinction always helps and helps for a fun and memorable experience between the two Shepards. For example in Mass Effect when you go to Chora's Den and meet Harken he spouts the line "Well Hiya Princess..." to which you can reply "say that again and you will be picking your teeth off the floor". This was a great piece of unique dialogue and added something else to femsheps playthrough.

Having ma'am instead of sir of course helps. But its so small it goes unnoticed. Scenes like the one with Harkin are remembered by many people. Those types of scenes are what people would like to see again. Nothing huge, but something that is memorable and unique.

Modifié par Captain Crash, 06 mai 2011 - 11:02 .

[Mr.House]

Captain Crash wrote...

Thought I would add some pics to highlight a few of the inconsistencies that we femshep players experience over the course of ME2 and to again show why its important for us these things are put right in ME3.   As they say a picture can speak a thousand words and these clearly express certain issues.

Credit of pics to inSpectre X


Clipping. As CalamityRanger said on the previous page these are some of the key moments of the game where your developing your relationships and building your play through.  

These points of immersion are really spoilt by needless clipping issues.   Additionally it just shows how using the same animation frame doesnt work on femshep. 







Texture Inconsistancies between genders.

We already know male Shepard had more time spent on him then femshep.  But since I havent yet played as male Shepard on ME2 I was suprised by these pics. Its clear that his armour and casual textures went through an additional level of polish compared to femshep.  

Casual Gear always seemed rough to me on femshep.  I didnt think however it was exclusiive to her so these images came as quite a suprise.   I quite like the casual colonist gear but the textures are so unpolished its hard to wear.  







Theres a few more in the album: Here


I dont want to dwell on the these issues too much. They cant and wont be changed in ME2.  Theres still a lot of polishing time between now and ME3 release however so I hope Bioware can take the time to polish up these texture inconsistancies that were displayed.    

*looks at this, checks eyes, slams keyboard and curses*

[jlb524]

QwibQwib wrote...

Omg, no wonder.

When I played ME2 for the first time, I noticed that femshep textures were lowres, I thought that, they made it like that cuz of the console thing. But now, looking at inSpectre X album ( thank you so much) it makes me think that, in the end femshep is a second class hero. Going back to:

"...Our goal has and will continue to be to ensure that female and male Shepard have a truly equitable experience and that no one group of people feel left out." - Jesse Houston

that's not equality.

I think that dev post was a load of horse poo then and I really do now.

They probably put 80% of their time into deving ManShep...to coincide with their numbers....

[QwibQwib]

rynluna wrote...

Actually seeing the differences is disappointing. I wish someone from BioWare would leave us some feedback.

Or that they actually read our threads, or that they actually care...

[TheRevanchist]

Honestly that sitting animation works perfectly for my particualr femshep...as does the whole "Jacob" thing. My femshep is a lady in name only. shes bloodthirsty, heartless, keeps her hair buzzed, is a racist human supremisist, and "amorus" is not an adequate enough term to describe her sexual appitite. In fact the only time shes nice is when shes trying to get someone to screw her and would go "Jacob" on every human male and female on the ship and spoke to at some point in the conversation, especially when the 'reward' part of the conversation comes up. After the "mission" is acomplished she turns back into the queen of b****s. So she would sit like that as often as humanly possible in an attempt to get the other person too aroused to resist. She would also swear so much it would make a sailor gasp in shock if possible, which considering Bulletstorm would be hilariously awsome with Hale's voice since it IS Hale's voice in Bulletstorm. She's more hardcore than most male protaganists ever dream of except maybe Terminator or somthing.

However I think the DA2 animations were TOO girly for ANYONE who kills people, they were like "Hi I'm an innocent school girl". Again ME1 was perfect. I never noticed the lack of textures until now...that is very disheartning. I agree with everything overall, esp the walking animations. Despite the fact my FemShep is more "who gives a s***" then any of my male shepards could ever be.

[Pordis Shepard]

I played me2 before ever playing me1, and initially the better graphics of me2 made me1 feel strange. But this post expresses very well what has been bothering me about me2, and it also explains why I still like me1.

Especially as femshep, me1 is just more suitable for in-game immersion. In me1 walking actually felt like the character was walking. In me2, walking just gets from point A to point B. (And don't get me started on me2's weird gorilla shuffle that shep does

[Captain Crash]

@Kyle: Read my post on the last page: http://social.biowar...7121/10#7293194

Not once does the OP say that femshep should look more like Lady Hawke, nor does it try to compare them.


Anyway its nice to see you made the ME2 animations work for you to. OperaGeek said the same thing on the previous page. However a lot other people have built their Shepard's in Mass Effect 1 and still have distinct memories of her unique style and movement. Which was stripped away in the second game. As I said several times we dont want a "girly" animation but something feminine which ME1 did. There is a big distinction. The ME rig looked right and made playing her a far more unique and pleasing experience. It suited her frame and build. She does afterall have a slim and athletic figure. Theres no way to deny that. Moving around the Normandy was a nice Experience in ME1. In ME2 it was clunky and awkward. Something mentioned by maleshep fans too so its something I do hope they address as both sets of fans feel these animations need work.

Without the separate rigs we see how using one standard body model does not work. Femshep uses a samller space then manshep and therefore the direct post over has meant she clips a lot more. Like the above pics, which is noticeable on my plays too. This is often left unpolished. Also I really doubt many fans want to hear Commander Shepard do what Jen Hale did in Bulletstorm.

Modifié par Captain Crash, 07 mai 2011 - 10:36 .

[GuardianAngel470]

Captain Crash wrote...

@ Guardian

I had to read that a couple of times mainly because you stated "I completely disagree with point number five" only for your next sentence to say you don't disagree with it. Essentially what your saying is there are more circumstances then we think and there shouldn't be too many more ontop because that will create too much of a dividing line. Anyway glad you can clarify a few points because you played both genders several times.

From what I gathered there are several instances where gender is acknowledged but it seems Bioware have done it quite seamlessly so its hard to notice. Which credit too them, its been done so well it sound and feel natural so its easy to miss. Which is great! ie, ma'am instead of sir. Nice to see these little variations.

However they just are little variations on words. In your own words "a dozen instances", most of which are one word changes in a 30-50 hour game really isn't a lot in the grand scale. Hence why everyone up to this point has said they would like to see more. The two examples in the OP point out where there really is a noticeable difference and a distinction. Another I missed for example in the OP are at the start where Miri says "...but shes only one woman"


But I get also the fact there needs to be a balance. We dont want over saturation of it and part of what makes both Shepard's great is the fact they are genderless in a sense. Both have dialogue and choices that are the same. Still a little distinction always helps and helps for a fun and memorable experience between the two Shepards. For example in Mass Effect when you go to Chora's Den and meet Harken he spouts the line "Well Hiya Princess..." to which you can reply "say that again and you will be picking your teeth off the floor". This was a great piece of unique dialogue and added something else to femsheps playthrough.

Having ma'am instead of sir of course helps. But its so small it goes unnoticed. Scenes like the one with Harkin are remembered by many people. Those types of scenes are what people would like to see again. Nothing huge, but something that is memorable and unique.

Yup, language failure on my part, sorry. It only happens every 1.2x10^40-41 seconds.

I should start talking in mathematics, then no matter what language someone speaks they will understand me!

[TheRevanchist]

Captain Crash wrote...

@Kyle: Read my post on the last page: http://social.biowar...7121/10#7293194

Not once does the OP say that femshep should look more like Lady Hawke, nor does it try to compare them.


Anyway its nice to see you made the ME2 animations work for you to. OperaGeek said the same thing on the previous page. However a lot other people have built their Shepard's in Mass Effect 1 and still have distinct memories of her unique style and movement. Which was stripped away in the second game. As I said several times we dont want a "girly" animation but something feminine which ME1 did. There is a big distinction. The ME rig looked right and made playing her a far more unique and pleasing experience. It suited her frame and build. She does afterall have a slim and athletic figure. Theres no way to deny that. Moving around the Normandy was a nice Experience in ME1. In ME2 it was clunky and awkward. Something mentioned by maleshep fans too so its something I do hope they address as both sets of fans feel these animations need work.

Without the separate rigs we see how using one standard body model does not work. Femshep uses a samller space then manshep and therefore the direct post over has meant she clips a lot more. Like the above pics, which is noticeable on my plays too. This is often left unpolished. Also I really doubt many fans want to hear Commander Shepard do what Jen Hale did in Bulletstorm.

Oh I know...that wouldn't really be suited for a game like Mass Effect...however I thought what Hale did in Bulletstorm was freakin hilarious...couldn't stop laughing. Like I said...the ME1 animations were good...i always honestly thought the run looked kinda weird...until I saw the ME2 run anyway lol. I've had my bloodthirsty FemShep since ME1 and is my secondary canon behind my ginger paragon Logan Shepard. So I kinda know what people who mainly play FemShep are feeling...esp after seeing these screenies...the treatment of FemShep is unaccetable. However I don't play FemShep often because I find it hard on my consious to live with making those douche bag choices lmao. Esp Jade Empire...I felt terrible after my evil playthrough. So thats the main reason I probably never noticed many of these things...that clipping issue where her arm goes through her leg however...is also present on Male Shepard in quite a few scenes. It's rather sad to find so many easy to fix problems got past them. But one thing is clear...Jesse Houston lied to us!!!!! lol.

[QwibQwib]

kylecouch wrote...

Honestly that sitting animation works perfectly for my particualr femshep...as does the whole "Jacob" thing. My femshep is a lady in name only. shes bloodthirsty, heartless, keeps her hair buzzed, is a racist human supremisist, and "amorus" is not an adequate enough term to describe her sexual appitite. In fact the only time shes nice is when shes trying to get someone to screw her and would go "Jacob" on every human male and female on the ship and spoke to at some point in the conversation, especially when the 'reward' part of the conversation comes up. After the "mission" is acomplished she turns back into the queen of b****s. So she would sit like that as often as humanly possible in an attempt to get the other person too aroused to resist. She would also swear so much it would make a sailor gasp in shock if possible, which considering Bulletstorm would be hilariously awsome with Hale's voice since it IS Hale's voice in Bulletstorm. She's more hardcore than most male protaganists ever dream of except maybe Terminator or somthing.

However I think the DA2 animations were TOO girly for ANYONE who kills people, they were like "Hi I'm an innocent school girl". Again ME1 was perfect. I never noticed the lack of textures until now...that is very disheartning. I agree with everything overall, esp the walking animations. Despite the fact my FemShep is more "who gives a s***" then any of my male shepards could ever be.

Well, the majority don't like how Femshep walks, it looks like she has a pair of balls between her legs. Bloodthirsty or not, females don't walk like that...I'm not saying that Femshep should walk like a **** or like lady hawke (personally idc how lady hawke walks, still kind of looks like a female walk but hers is like ****ty)

Since we get the crappy armour and clothing res, they should make it up. Femshep deservers her own animation ring.

Modifié par QwibQwib, 07 mai 2011 - 03:07 .

[TheRevanchist]

QwibQwib wrote...

kylecouch wrote...

Honestly that sitting animation works perfectly for my particualr femshep...as does the whole "Jacob" thing. My femshep is a lady in name only. shes bloodthirsty, heartless, keeps her hair buzzed, is a racist human supremisist, and "amorus" is not an adequate enough term to describe her sexual appitite. In fact the only time shes nice is when shes trying to get someone to screw her and would go "Jacob" on every human male and female on the ship and spoke to at some point in the conversation, especially when the 'reward' part of the conversation comes up. After the "mission" is acomplished she turns back into the queen of b****s. So she would sit like that as often as humanly possible in an attempt to get the other person too aroused to resist. She would also swear so much it would make a sailor gasp in shock if possible, which considering Bulletstorm would be hilariously awsome with Hale's voice since it IS Hale's voice in Bulletstorm. She's more hardcore than most male protaganists ever dream of except maybe Terminator or somthing.

However I think the DA2 animations were TOO girly for ANYONE who kills people, they were like "Hi I'm an innocent school girl". Again ME1 was perfect. I never noticed the lack of textures until now...that is very disheartning. I agree with everything overall, esp the walking animations. Despite the fact my FemShep is more "who gives a s***" then any of my male shepards could ever be.

Well, the majority don't like how Femshep walks, it looks like she has a pair of balls between her legs. Bloodthirsty or not, females don't walk like that...I'm not saying that Femshep should walk like a **** or like lady hawke (personally idc how lady hawke walks, still kind of looks like a female walk but hers is like ****ty)

Since we get the crappy armour and clothing res, they should make it up. Femshep deservers her own animation ring.

The actual Walking animation looks like crap for both genders, but it's like magnified on FemShep...even MY FemShep wouldn't walk like that...as I'm sure no other human being would eaither.

[Sticken Chuffing]

It's my hope that the lumpy walk was an attempt to show Shepard with a lingering injury from the Lazarus Project. And rather than make 2 sets of wonky walking rigs they reused the same one.

With the extra moves that Shepard is now able to do (rolls etc) there will be some work done on the animations, and I really hope that extends to the walking animations too and we can return to a normal walking animation for both genders. As has been said many times, ME1's walk was perfectly acceptable for Femshep.

With regard to the other issues raised by this thread, I agree with most of the OP's thoughts.

[Khaos2000]

Necropost! Anyways the reason why Lady Hawke is brought up so much is because DA2 is also a sequel, and also a bioware game even if it is a totally different sub studio. People see Bioware and automatically seem to forget that there are many sub studio's

I agree on all points myself. The reason why they think that 80% people play manshep over femshep is BECAUSE of their marketing! If they marketed Femshep too I bet there would have been more initial female playthroughs. Many people didn't even know femshep was even possible, they just hit play default and go.

Otherwise: Femshep MUST have high res graphics, just like manshep. Femshep MUST get her own animations back! Cybernetics apparently make you lose all coordination and groove. Femshep MUST have better directing for VA. Poor Hale takes so much flack for certain sections of the game because of how she was told to perform the lines. Ah well.

All good points. Let us hope that they listen, but, I will not hold my breath.

[Captain Crash]

 Thanks Khaos 

Well it appears Casey Hudson tweeted some info on hair textures and styles

"Hair in previous ME games had limitations that we fixed for #ME3 . Check out Ash's new 'do for new shader tech."


So hopefully now we wont ever use the word "plastic" again 

[DeadLetterBox]

Some things don't bother me too much, but the graphics quality needs to be the same between genders without a doubt. That just seems like a given.

That and there can be no more travesties like the Inferno armor. That was literally a male model for both genders and I totally noticed. Kestrel armor was nice. Collector armor was gross but feminine. But that Inferno armor... that still makes me angry. I felt like my intelligence was being insulted.

As far as conversation differences between genders, I honestly didn't feel slighted on that one, other than not being able to say something snarky to Harkin when I ran into him, and the customs girl thing. The customs girl was enough of a caricature that I actually wouldn't be surprised to find out that was on purpose, to show that she's just reciting a script without thought. Aliens probably don't really care if I'm a female human or not.

An option to be friendly without being flirty would be a great thing for both genders. An indication of when you're being flirtatious would be nice too. It helped somewhat in DA2.

[Lapis Lazuli]

One thing I liked about Harkin is that he made me think there should be more characters that act like him. I agree that there should be numerous response options for FemShep. I think It might help, and be more realistic if more males (but not too many) that interact with Shep would try to initiate flirtation. Then Shep can react negatively or positively in a variety of ways. One thing that sticks out about the whole Jacob thing is that he seems to have no interest until Shep starts it going. It might've gone a long way to solve the problem with fans if he initiated things, in a straight laced manner of course because of the nature of his character. In real life, male co-workers and subordinates try to push the envelope all the time.

Modifié par Lapis Lazuli, 14 mai 2011 - 02:02 .

[Judgement Cut]

I so agree with this. I'm a huge nerd and enjoy customizing characters for longer than I probably should ... but making FemShep with great hair was not happening. Ugh! Her animations too! ( Yes, I'm talking to you, Kasumi's Loyalty Mission. )