412 réponses à ce sujet

[GunMoth]

Ahh. Ah well. I tried. Science isn't good enough.

[Radahldo]

Linking to wikipedia article is just bad forum ettiqute. Are you suggesting that no one has any familarity with that subject? What exactly are you even referring to by posting that? Jogging? Sighing? everything else you posted wasnt 'science'

Modifié par Radahldo, 09 juin 2011 - 02:50 .

[GunMoth]

Radahldo wrote...

Linking to wikipedia article is just bad forum ettiqute. Are you suggesting that no one has any familarity with that subject? What exactly are you even referring to by posting that? Jogging? Sashays? everything else you posted wasnt 'science'

If you actually read the OP, you'd see that the OP didn't want sashays or extremely feminine body language. The OP simply wanted a return to the original character animations from ME 1 rather than sharing the same character animation that is made for males. It also causes technical issues.

SEVERAL people posting in this thread misinterperated what the OP posted and is saying that they want femshep to have certain mannerisms, whether that be more tom boyish, militant, ****ty, feminine etc. when that isn't the issue at all. 

Wikipedia is only a bad source when it's on an extremely complex subject, like you implied, many people SHOULD be familiar with this subject. Anyone who passed highschool anyway. Edit: Oh and the importance of sexual dimorphism helps make physiology believable. Which some people find important.

Modifié par GunMoth, 09 juin 2011 - 03:16 .

[GunMoth]

In short; this thread is getting derailed and nobody is adding anything lucrative that can help compromise the demands of several female players.

[grumpymooselion]

Well, to get back on subject then, I have to agree with what the original poster is saying. It's nice that the female Shepard isn't overly sexualized. It would be better for her to have her own animations, in order to prevent clipping issues (and just generally awkward looking, due to the animations being made for a different model entirely). I also agree with being able to preview things for the Female Shepard as readily as the Male Shepard. All of it really.

Your choices in ME are meant to be a part of building your ME experience, making sure the different genders have unique things to experience is every bit as important as any other choice - especially since having new things to see via a different gender option only serve to increase replayability.

[jlb524]

Radahldo wrote...
My friend who posted here earlier has never peeked into femshep screenshot thread and, basically, is not represented by this thread at all; like, clipping, not everyone cares

No, but I think the clipping issue shows a lack of polish that exists in the MaleShep version...so it's not so bad if they try to avoid that/fix it, IMO.

Radahldo wrote...
And, also, you indicated to the Batarian on omega who i think has a sexist remark for you as  'brilliant'? Dont you realize the trend of many npcs who recognize sheps sex, just saying something sexist? Was harkin brillant in me1 Why is there no complaint about that anywhere in the op?

That's a good point.

[GunMoth]

Janan Pacha wrote...
Your choices in ME are meant to be a part of building your ME experience, making sure the different genders have unique things to experience is every bit as important as any other choice - especially since having new things to see via a different gender option only serve to increase replayability.

Exactly.

[Erani]

I want FemShep to have her own animations, please. Seeing her arm go through Liara during the long-awaited real reunion in LOTSB was really annoying!  
Also, no sitting down and having a drink all caveman-like... 

[GunMoth]

So to reiterate - with the help of a lot of posts everyone made - the issue seems to be the overall polished feeling of the character's movements. That may not be a big deal to a lot of people out there, this includes some female players. I guess I just don't see why people actively disagree with this thread.

Edit: If you simply don't care one way or another, then just ignore it. I find it strange that people want their commander shepards to be sticking their arms through walls or having their legs coming out of crates. 

Modifié par GunMoth, 09 juin 2011 - 03:26 .

[jlb524]

I personally want the same 'polish' of the male version...the higher res textures, minimal clipping (though that exists in both, of course).  I want to know what DLC armor looks like on FemShep before I go out and buy it.

Beyond that, I don't want gender to really matter...even in romances. In as far as games provide some form of escapism from the ills of everyday life, I don't want to see it.

Modifié par jlb524, 09 juin 2011 - 03:31 .

[Cancer Puppet]

I suppose bigger breasts aren't what we're going for here...?

Joking people, joking.

[Radahldo]

GunMoth wrote...

So to reiterate - with the help of a lot of posts everyone made - the issue seems to be the overall polished feeling of the character's movements. That may not be a big deal to a lot of people out there, this includes some female players. I guess I just don't see why people actively disagree with this thread.

Edit: If you simply don't care one way or another, then just ignore it. I find it strange that people want their commander shepards to be sticking their arms through walls or having their legs coming out of crates. 

I think we really need to stop interchangebly using the terms gender and and sex here.., there are two sexes, not two genders; your complaint is the lack of preferred gender expression-- that is not to say there is no gender expression: the 'masculine' animations for femshep are refreshing, positive gender expressions for some of my female friends.


That is to say, the way Shepard sat was what my friend wanted, not something she felt leftover with.  By saying there is no 'unique' gender expression you are dismissing my friends experience. I understand wanting more feminine animations, but conflating feminine animations with 'unique' is why people are responding the way they are. it is not that they are misreading.

Realistically, there are not gonna be two different ways femshep can act, just one that everyone is subjected to. The same incongruity some of you feel playing femshep in me2 will be felt by others in me3.


Conflating, in your wording, the shared animations that cause clipping (a real problem) with the shared animations that cause 'cave man sitting' (perceived problem), even if they are infact both caused by malesheps animations, is the miscommunication that is causing the issue.

Modifié par Radahldo, 09 juin 2011 - 03:40 .

[GunMoth]

jlb524 wrote...

I personally want the same 'polish' of the male version...the higher res textures, minimal clipping (though that exists in both, of course).  I want to know what DLC armor looks like on FemShep before I go out and buy it.

Beyond that, I don't want gender to really matter...even in romances. In as far as games provide some form of escapism from the ills of everyday life, I don't want to see it.

Yeah. A lot of people are really divided on that subject (the gender mattering thing). There was a blog post the OP linked with a debate about the Batarian merc recruiter. Some women liked the ability to stick it to the man, other women simply wanted it out all together. I think we need to seperate the genders in terms of models and graphics. (especially with that album someone posted of the terrible quality femsheps armor is). In my opinion, it was kind of neat being able to get back at the batarian, but at the same time, I would NOT miss it if that feature was gone. (sexist jokes) 

When trying to tackle reality in videogames, there is sometimes a line you do not cross unless its the underlying issue or conflict in the game. 

Then you have the whole DA2 Anders crowd who think that him being bisexual in DA2 ruined character continuity. I can see where they're coming from, but it should have been there from the beginning, especially since we know they were capable of it with Zev and Lil-ee-awn-uh. 

[Lucky Thirteen]

What animations in ME1 did femShep have that maleShep did not have? I am seriously missing something here, because it looked to be the exact same there to me. The jogging was the same! She even sat with her legs open while they had their post-mission meetings!

I think the only real issue I can agree on in any post is that Shepard, both male and female, had a horrible, limping, head down jog going on in ME2. In fact there were animation and clipping issues all over for both genders. I know I've seen maleShep stick his hand through his helmet to rub his forehead in some youtube videos.

Women by nature aren't all naturally graceful and delicate and so drastically different from men, that it needs to be applied to femShep. I'm not saying it's wrong to have those traits, I'm saying it is wrong to say women behave in a certain way and therefore femShep should be that way. That is what undoes what is great about her. You are enforcing what is socially acceptable instead of accepting the way a person is.

I'd like to press on the issue that not all men are rough and rugged, they can be delicate and graceful and they can still manage to be strong and powerful (Look at Thane! Don't tell me he doesn't have dainty feet), but to change maleShep's animations "to be fair" at this point would be outrageous, just as much as changing femShep to be more "socially acceptable feminine" would be.

[jlb524]

GunMoth wrote...

Yeah. A lot of people are really divided on that subject (the gender mattering thing). There was a blog post the OP linked with a debate about the Batarian merc recruiter. Some women liked the ability to stick it to the man, other women simply wanted it out all together.

I think we need to seperate the genders in terms of models and graphics. (especially with that album someone posted of the terrible quality femsheps armor is). In my opinion, it was kind of neat being able to get back at the batarian, but at the same time, I would NOT miss it if that feature was gone. (sexist jokes)

See, I find it totally awkward that the Batarian merc recuiter would refer to a heavily armed and armored person as if she were a stripper.  She lacked the proper outfit. 

GunMoth wrote...

Then you have the whole DA2 Anders crowd who think that him being bisexual in DA2 ruined character continuity. I can see where they're coming from, but it should have been there from the beginning, especially since we know they were capable of it with Zev and Lil-ee-awn-uh. 

Well, for starters, Zev and Leli were new characters.  Considering Leli, her 'background' wasn't even bisexual (whatever that means) since she only talked about her female lover.  It all depends on how you define 'character'.

Is it, what little we know about them (since we only got a slice of Anders in Awakening)?  Is it every little tiny detail about them, down to their favorite pizza topping?  Or is it more general things like personality/morals/behaviors?  

I would say, taking the general traits into consideration, that it didn't break character continuity.  Going more specific, more detailed...possibly (though we don't know everything).  Similar to him liking anchovies in Awakenings and then preferring pepperoni in DA2...is that a big change?

[GunMoth]

Radahldo wrote...

GunMoth wrote...

So to reiterate - with the help of a lot of posts everyone made - the issue seems to be the overall polished feeling of the character's movements. That may not be a big deal to a lot of people out there, this includes some female players. I guess I just don't see why people actively disagree with this thread.

Edit: If you simply don't care one way or another, then just ignore it. I find it strange that people want their commander shepards to be sticking their arms through walls or having their legs coming out of crates. 

I think we really need to stop interchangebly using the terms gender and and sex here.., there are two sexes, not two genders; your complaint is the lack of preferred gender expression-- that is not to say there is no gender expression: the 'masculine' animations for femshep are refreshing, positive gender expressions for some of my female friends.


That is to say, the way Shepard sat was what my friend wanted, not something she felt leftover with.  By saying there is no 'unique' gender expression you are dismissing my friends experience. I understand wanting more feminine animations, but conflating feminine animations with 'unique' is why people are responding the way they are. it is not that they are misreading.

Realistically, there are not gonna be two different ways femshep can act, just one that everyone is subjected to. The same incongruity some of you feel playing femshep in me2 will be felt by others in me3.


Conflating the shared animations that cause clipping (a real problem) with the shared animations that cause 'cave man sitting' (perceived problem), even if they are infact both caused by malesheps animations, is the miscommunication that is causing the issue.

I think you misunderstand what I'm trying to say. 

There are SEVERAL different types of females playing fem shep. Although that experience is refreshing for your friends, it isn't going to be so for one group of girls, while another group may feel neutral. There are too many different types of people all trying to project onto the same character model. You also have other people who are making characters that aren't like themselves (aren't projections or persona of themself into the game) and are intentionally trying to make them a certain way to role play. Specific gender expression can limit one's creativity and ability to immerse themselves. 

This is why I think the return of ME1 animations would be good while also making her body language more neutral. She wouldn't spread her legs, but she wouldn't really cross them either. Her body language shouldn't imply that she is a certain way, your choices make her what she is. Also, perhaps your class defines who she is as well. 

Which goes back to my point of armor and customization. We could avoid the body language issue if there were more features that gave us the ability to project onto shepard in other ways. I understand how your friends feel, and while I tend to slouch and spread my legs while wearing pants, you sure as hell would NEVER catch me acting like that in a dress. I squirm and get all uncomfortable. But that's beside the point since asking the devs to make shepard react differently in the clothes he/she wears is just absurd. 

Modifié par GunMoth, 09 juin 2011 - 04:38 .

[jlb524]

Lucky Thirteen wrote...

What animations in ME1 did femShep have that maleShep did not have? I am seriously missing something here, because it looked to be the exact same there to me. The jogging was the same! She even sat with her legs open while they had their post-mission meetings!

They both used the same animations, from what I can tell.

Lucky Thirteen wrote...

I think the only real issue I can agree on in any post is that Shepard, both male and female, had a horrible, limping, head down jog going on in ME2. In fact there were animation and clipping issues all over for both genders. I know I've seen maleShep stick his hand through his helmet to rub his forehead in some youtube videos.

These issues appear for both.  However, there are times where clipping doesn't exist in the MaleShep version of the scene while they do in FemSheps (like the scenes in LotSB).  This suggests an extra level of polish in the male version that's not present in the female one, in general.

Lucky Thirteen wrote...
Women by nature aren't all naturally graceful and delicate and so drastically different from men, that it needs to be applied to femShep. I'm not saying it's wrong to have those traits, I'm saying it is wrong to say women behave in a certain way and therefore femShep should be that way. That is what undoes what is great about her. You are enforcing what is socially acceptable instead of accepting the way a person is.

I agree with this.

Lucky Thirteen wrote...
I'd like to press on the issue that not all men are rough and rugged, they can be delicate and graceful and they can still manage to be strong and powerful (Look at Thane! Don't tell me he doesn't have dainty feet), but to change maleShep's animations "to be fair" at this point would be outrageous, just as much as changing femShep to be more "socially acceptable feminine" would be.

IMO, having 'fair' animations would entail the same amount of detail/polish to the FemShep version....tweaking the scene for her to take into account the difference in body size.  In some instances, it seems like FemShep is copy/pasted in, and things just don't fit the same with her, given height differences.

[GunMoth]

jlb524 wrote...

GunMoth wrote...

Yeah. A lot of people are really divided on that subject (the gender mattering thing). There was a blog post the OP linked with a debate about the Batarian merc recruiter. Some women liked the ability to stick it to the man, other women simply wanted it out all together.

I think we need to seperate the genders in terms of models and graphics. (especially with that album someone posted of the terrible quality femsheps armor is). In my opinion, it was kind of neat being able to get back at the batarian, but at the same time, I would NOT miss it if that feature was gone. (sexist jokes)

See, I find it totally awkward that the Batarian merc recuiter would refer to a heavily armed and armored person as if she were a stripper.  She lacked the proper outfit. 

GunMoth wrote...

Then you have the whole DA2 Anders crowd who think that him being bisexual in DA2 ruined character continuity. I can see where they're coming from, but it should have been there from the beginning, especially since we know they were capable of it with Zev and Lil-ee-awn-uh. 

Well, for starters, Zev and Leli were new characters.  Considering Leli, her 'background' wasn't even bisexual (whatever that means) since she only talked about her female lover.  It all depends on how you define 'character'.

Is it, what little we know about them (since we only got a slice of Anders in Awakening)?  Is it every little tiny detail about them, down to their favorite pizza topping?  Or is it more general things like personality/morals/behaviors?  

I would say, taking the general traits into consideration, that it didn't break character continuity.  Going more specific, more detailed...possibly (though we don't know everything).  Similar to him liking anchovies in Awakenings and then preferring pepperoni in DA2...is that a big change?

Hahaha, you're right. That never even crossed my mind. As soon as I heard "blahblahblah stripper" I saw red and tapped the RT so fast I couldn't even process what was going on. The situation actually got me upset and caused me to react irrationally. I think that's pretty amazing for a videogame, but it was pretty out of the blue now that you mention it. 

Honestly I could care less if someone was bisexual or if character continuity was compromised to make those options available for someone else, but I think thats the whole problem with issues like this. (Including this femshep topic) we have several different types of people all playing one game, and we have to come to some sort of compromise with the rest of the Mass Effect audience. You know? ;o; 

[GunMoth]

I'll try to PM Captain to post their sources about the separate gender rigs for ME1.

[Lucky Thirteen]

jlb524 wrote...


IMO, having 'fair' animations would entail the same amount of detail/polish to the FemShep version....tweaking the scene for her to take into account the difference in body size.  In some instances, it seems like FemShep is copy/pasted in, and things just don't fit the same with her, given height differences.

Is there a side by side comparison I could see? Cause I don't think there is a height difference between male and female Shepard. From what I've seen when compared to other characters, male and female Shepard appear to have the same height. Female Shepard actually looks taller than a lot of the women in the game to me. Also people have been able to mod and swap the male and female models in the romance scenes, without consequence of height differences. If there is a height difference, I think it must be very minimal.

[Raiil]

I believe there is a height difference, but like Dragon Age, it's extremely minimal. I think male!Shep's eyes are on par with fem!Shep's forehead, or something like that.

The armour actually makes it difficult to tell. Some vests/materials make you look taller than others.

[jlb524]

GunMoth wrote...

Honestly I could care less if someone was bisexual or if character continuity was compromised to make those options available for someone else, but I think thats the whole problem with issues like this. (Including this femshep topic) we have several different types of people all playing one game, and we have to come to some sort of compromise with the rest of the Mass Effect audience. You know? ;o;

Yes...though, things like FemShep's gait or Batarian's being all sexist to her aren't optional or avoidable, while romances are.  The former are intrinsic to her character....there's no switch that controls locomotion...which is why one has to be settled on.

[jlb524]

Lucky Thirteen wrote...

Is there a side by side comparison I could see? Cause I don't think there is a height difference between male and female Shepard. From what I've seen when compared to other characters, male and female Shepard appear to have the same height. Female Shepard actually looks taller than a lot of the women in the game to me. Also people have been able to mod and swap the male and female models in the romance scenes, without consequence of height differences. If there is a height difference, I think it must be very minimal.

Check out this thread for clipping/animation differences between FemShep/MaleShep in LotSB.  I'm not sure why height difference means FemShep's arm goes through Liara's here but not MaleShep's, but it does happen.

I've also swapped in Female Shepard into the Jack and Miranda ME2 love scenes and there is clipping differences between the two.

Jack/FemShep ...odd kissing...arms not properly placed on shoulders.

Jack/MaleShep

Modifié par jlb524, 09 juin 2011 - 04:25 .