412 réponses à ce sujet

[Raiil]

I saw the dress being informal wear around the Normandy to be the real issue, tbqh. I'm happy with the pants and the weird... formal dress/pantsuit thing Shep can wear. If you're racing from one fire to the next, why toddle around in high heels?


As to the walking animation issue, I agree that for both Sheps it can look a little... funky... but no, not all women walk the same, no more than the idea that men and women walk the same. I'm a female, I'm not 'built' like a man, but I do walk like the common perception of a male. Because I was taught to- I spent four years in a military programme and I still have the soldier's 'walk'. There's no earthly reason why Shepard, who's been in for much longer, to be any different.


So I guess from my perspective, having a special 'woman' walk is unnecessary. But that is just me.

Modifié par Valentia X, 30 avril 2011 - 05:52 .

[Captain Crash]

jwalker wrote...

I don't see combat rolls as an inherently male thing.

Neither Do I.   I mean sitting, standing and posing isnt an inherently male thing either.  Yet ME2 still doesnt do justice for her.  As stated numerous times they clearly never really had femshep in mind.

So yes, as you and Jaime say as long as Bioware dont mess up things will be fine. Yet going back to the new animations, I got this Gears of War image embedded in my mind.  Simple thing like rolling and climbing ladders are made to look more 'macho' then they actually are.   

Its easier to show what I mean.  For example: http://www.youtube.c...z7LgjmI#t=6m30s
(If  the time stamp doesnt work go to 6 minute 30 seconds)


That ladder climbing was made to look a bit more action orientated and intense.  Male Soldier in mind, because thats what the game is.  It shows how a simple action such as climbing can be made to look a lot better and less dull.  Something like that wouldnt work with femsheps frame or style, especially if they use the same rig again.   It would need some modifications at the very least.     Also I do recognise that GoW isnt Mass Effect, but the conditions are similar afterall.  Especially since in both game they wear armour which adds weight. There is no getting around the fact that the animations here were made to look more 'macho' like though.  Something I hope doesnt transfer too much onto her if it doesnt fit or look right.

It may be a minor issue, but again its one of those things where potentially there is another awkward male animation imposed on her.  Of course thats now up to Bioware to decide and I hope they dont mess up.

Modifié par Captain Crash, 30 avril 2011 - 06:22 .

[operageek]

I agree with many of the original points - especially re: screenshots. There are also some moments where I have found female Shepard referred to as male; in the letter to Admiral Hackett in LotSB, Shepard is referred to as "he", for example.

But in regards to the animations.... I disagree! The last thing in the world I want is a Shepard who swings her hips when she walks DA 2 style! I got used to it for Hawke, but I would hate to see no-nonsense soldier Shep move like that. Wearing the dress around the Normandy causes obvious problems - but I see that as a natural consequence of the somewhat baffling choice to have Shep running around in evening wear on the Normandy. Change her casual clothing to actual casual clothing, and problem solved. I would hate to have her sitting all dainty like all the time just so that some people could make the incongruous choice to have her wear a dress and heels on her downtime.

In general, I dislike the idea that certain movements are inherently 'male' while others are 'female'. Shep's movements can be qualified as male or macho, but in the context, it suits her character. It's not about male or female, it's about her being tough, assertive, and straight-forward. I am ok with more gender neutral animations - I understand not everyone identifies with a more tomboyish Shep the way I do - but I am decidedly having separate animations for both, which I fear would inevitably lead to a more sexualized, 'girly' Shep.

In a similar vein, I actually like that there isn't too much differentiation between the way the two genders are treated during playthroughs. For one thing, it seems accurate - it's likely that aliens, for one, wouldn't differentiate much between male and female humans. And, it makes me think that in the future humanity has achieved actual, true gender equality - so much so that the fact Shepard is female is hardly even noteworthy. I love it.

But I agree wholeheartedly with the overall sentiment here - that more attention should be given to non-default male Shepard. If a random person on the internet can create a female version of the ME 2 launch trailer, surely BioWare could do the same? () I would be ecstatic if this were ever to happen. I'm not holding my breath, though.

[Therefore_I_Am]

QwibQwib wrote...



And this is not a big issues

This is nearly as awkward as jame lee curtis' strip scene from True Lies...

Modifié par Therefore_I_Am, 30 avril 2011 - 10:13 .

[noxsachi]

I really want to second the additional hairstyles part of that post. I can barely play ME due to how lame the hairstyles are. Dragon Age II did a wonderful job introducing new hairstyles that actually look decent, the only one in ME I can stand is Miranda's, which you can't use. So please, give us some hairstyles that aren't terrible.

Modifié par noxsachi, 30 avril 2011 - 10:34 .

[The Tookah]

Valentia X, If men and women with military training walk pretty much the same, do you think the problem may be one of a too "macho" walk over all for the animations? Is male Shepard's walk also too lumbering to be "military"? I'm just asking because my experience with military people is nil.

[Raiil]

The Tookah wrote...

Valentia X, If men and women with military training walk pretty much the same, do you think the problem may be one of a too "macho" walk over all for the animations? Is male Shepard's walk also too lumbering to be "military"? I'm just asking because my experience with military people is nil.

LONG RAMBLE IS LONG!


Just off the bat, military men and women don't all walk exactly the same either because of individual differences in body type. (Not critising what you're saying, just clarifying my own statement.) I had one fellow female cadet who, unless she was in formation and concentrating, swayed like fem!Hawke from DA2- couldn't help it, it was how she was built.

I personally find their run to be a little, well, weird, but short of stripping them to their skivves, I can't tell if they're 'incorrect' because I don't know things like their ape index or their leg/height ratio; that sort of precludes anything besides my personal opinion on the matter. I don't know about macho, but odd seems the right word for it. ]

I will say that I think part of the problem is that they don't really run differently in or out of armour; the animation makes more sense when they're in presumbly heavy armour since they'd be trying to maintain both pace and strength- they're not sprinting or plodding, really.

The best scenario would be having different run/walk animations depending on what they're wearing and what sort of situation they're in. How we move is dependent on posture, our shoes, the restrictions on our clothing and how we feel at the time; Shepard doesn't need to be posture perfect; a fem Shep in heels should walk differently because of the restrictions a stiletto brings. A male shep in the casual dungarees or whatever the hell that is will move his legs differently than when he's ragging 20+ lbs of metal on each leg in a suit that probably prevents some movement.


However, that's part of the problem; it would be a very expensive process we're looking at, even though we only have one default body for each gender. What we're looking at is something similiar to the Dragon Age series, because elves, dwarves, and humans run differently due to their body type. Whether ME can afford this is up for debate.

[blackashes411]

I'd love to get into detail, but for the sake of a developer seeing this, I agree to alllll points. BUMP!

[The Tookah]

@Valentia X
Interesting response. Thanks for taking the time to answer. I agree that BioWare probably won't allocate the resources to make the walking/running animations correct for all situations. I think if the sitting animation would just recognize a "formal" situation, it would resolve the splay-legged femShep in a dress. I think dudeShep would also straighten up in dress attire. Those who want their femShep to go around in a dress for casual, will just have to deal with the slouch, IMO.

[Raiil]

@Tookah


I got the feeling that the devs didn't think too far ahead when they decided to let us wear formal wear; it probably went something like 'oh, ladies will love this!' and ended there. I, for one, can't stand the formal wear, so obviously it's less of an issue for me.


I think the best outcome would be two default run/walks and maybe five different sitting positions, and working outfits around that.

[SennenScale]

@Valentia X
I think I remember hearing somewhere exactly that. I mean, a dev having said "ladies will love the Kasumi DLC". Can't remember exact details, though.

I wish the dress had been a little classier and longer...it might still be weird to sit like that in a dress but at least Shep wouldn't be flashing anyone.

[Fault Girl]

Therefore_I_Am wrote...

QwibQwib wrote...



And this is not a big issues

This is nearly as awkward as jame lee curtis' strip scene from True Lies...

The Reapers are coming from Dark Space are they not.

My jokes are so bad.

I just want some nicer hair styles, or a better bob cut.

[SennenScale]

ZombieGeisha wrote...
The Reapers are coming from Dark Space are they not.

My jokes are so bad.

I just want some nicer hair styles, or a better bob cut.

So if we just kill Shepard, no more Reapers? Dammit, I knew it.

If the hair just looked like...well, HAIR...I'd be happy myself.

[GreenSoda]

All good points, but different / gender-specific dialogue is imo the most important one.

[Captain Crash]

operageek wrote...

But in regards to the animations.... I disagree! The last thing in the world I want is a Shepard who swings her hips when she walks DA 2 style! I got used to it for Hawke, but I would hate to see no-nonsense soldier Shep move like that. Wearing the dress around the Normandy causes obvious problems - but I see that as a natural consequence of the somewhat baffling choice to have Shep running around in evening wear on the Normandy. Change her casual clothing to actual casual clothing, and problem solved. I would hate to have her sitting all dainty like all the time just so that some people could make the incongruous choice to have her wear a dress and heels on her downtime.

In general, I dislike the idea that certain movements are inherently 'male' while others are 'female'. Shep's movements can be qualified as male or macho, but in the context, it suits her character. It's not about male or female, it's about her being tough, assertive, and straight-forward. I am ok with more gender neutral animations - I understand not everyone identifies with a more tomboyish Shep the way I do - but I am decidedly having separate animations for both, which I fear would inevitably lead to a more sexualized, 'girly' Shep.

In a similar vein, I actually like that there isn't too much differentiation between the way the two genders are treated during playthroughs. For one thing, it seems accurate - it's likely that aliens, for one, wouldn't differentiate much between male and female humans. And, it makes me think that in the future humanity has achieved actual, true gender equality - so much so that the fact Shepard is female is hardly even noteworthy. I love it.

Thanks for the feedback,  I think you may have lost the direction I intended with the animations.  I dont want them girly either but I do feel she needs something unique to her like in the last game.  Im lost with what you mean however with "True gender equality". That doesnt mean everyone looks and acts the same. There are always going distinctions between males and females. Especially in the way they walk or posture.  Femshep in casual gear is slim and athletic.  Her walking and posturing animation dont represent this at all.


I agree that I dont want femsheps animations to look "girly" either but she should walk and posture like a male when she is female.  Theres a big difference between the girly and animations and something like looks feminine and represents how a female soldier should look.    Im assuming you havent played Mass Effect 1 because she did have her own rig in that game.  It wasnt girly but did help define her a lot more as it was still feminine.  Thats why alot of players are upset it was removed because she has lost some of her disinction.  It wasnt at all a girly animation but helped make her stand apart from male Shep.    Like someone who posted on the last page it seems you've grown used to this one rig animation and have embedded it into your femshep style.   Nothing at all wrong with that, but I think most people posting seem to want a return to the way femshep used to move in the Original title.  Something feminine and unique for her. (Not girly!)  Especially since as I said in my first paragraph, she has a slim and athletic build.


As mentioned on the last page, there shouldnt be inherently male and female animations.  The problem is there are those distinctions between the two and ME2 showed numerous examples.  My concern going into ME3 is that Bioware continues to make a distinction.  Or they make an action more "macho" then needed which they then use on femshep and expect us to accept our nimble adept in light armour will do something like that.

[jojon2se]

Valentia X wrote...
...
However, that's part of the problem; it would be a very expensive process we're looking at, even though we only have one default body for each gender. What we're looking at is something similiar to the Dragon Age series, because elves, dwarves, and humans run differently due to their body type. Whether ME can afford this is up for debate.

Given that the alien designs were modified, so that they could be shoehorned onto a human skeleton, despite their different physiology, I'm not holding my breath.

[Star]

Therefore_I_Am wrote...

QwibQwib wrote...



And this is not a big issues

This is nearly as awkward as jame lee curtis' strip scene from True Lies...

I agree with the points made by in the original post.  

And this picture says it all.  This is not how most women sit. Particularly when wearing a dress!

[SennenScale]

I can't even imagine sitting like that.

I just tried and it was very weird, even in pants.

Bioware, if you're listening, if would be nice if Femshep just closed her legs. I could handwave the walk as being a side effect of death, but a female doesn't sit like that in a dress.

[Captain Crash]

Whats worse is they actually changed it on LotSB. It was nice to see Bioware make the effort for her. Then they did Arrival and completely ignored her sitting posture again.

[Fiery Phoenix]

It should be noted that Arrival was developed by BioWare Montreal, whereas BioWare Edmonton did LOTSB. Obviously, the latter are ones who did ME2 and are working on ME3 at the moment.

[ReallyRue]

Star58 wrote...

Therefore_I_Am wrote...

QwibQwib wrote...



And this is not a big issues

This is nearly as awkward as jame lee curtis' strip scene from True Lies...

I agree with the points made by in the original post.  

And this picture says it all.  This is not how most women sit. Particularly when wearing a dress!

That's how I sit half the time, and I'm female. Although I never wear dresses, so maybe that has something to do with it.

[SennenScale]

ReallyRue wrote...

That's how I sit half the time, and I'm female. Although I never wear dresses, so maybe that has something to do with it.

If embarassment or modesty doesn't kick in, stuff can also rip if you sit like that with a dress and/or stockings/nylon. And femshep is not even wearing any stockings/nylon, which makes the free show worse. There's not much of a point giving Femshep the dress if she forgot how to wear one after she died.

I'm some random poster and this is the girliest post on the forum.

Modifié par SennenScale, 01 mai 2011 - 07:09 .

[didymos1120]

SennenScale wrote...
There's not much of a point giving Femshep the dress if she forgot how to wear one after she died.

The dress was just a little bonus.  It had no point outside of Kasumi's loyalty mission, and they certainly weren't going to go back and redo the animations for the base game just for that.  I can kinda understand griping about Arrival (though it's still a bit too mountain/molehill), but griping about the stuff in the base game not being "dress optimal" is just silly. 

[SennenScale]

didymos1120 wrote...

SennenScale wrote...
There's not much of a point giving Femshep the dress if she forgot how to wear one after she died.

The dress was just a little bonus.  It had no point outside of Kasumi's loyalty mission, and they certainly weren't going to go back and redo the animations for the base game just for that.  I can kinda understand griping about Arrival (though it's still a bit too mountain/molehill), but griping about the stuff in the base game not being "dress optimal" is just silly. 

But it was done in LotSB apparently.

Might be silly for me to gripe, but it was kind of silly to add something that doesn't quite work with the default animation. Then again, the zoom-in to Shep's boobs in the pre-landing dialogue may have soured me against the dress from the get-go.

[AngelicMachinery]

GreenSoda wrote...

All good points, but different / gender-specific dialogue is imo the most important one.

I personally can't see the draw of gender specific dialogue myself. I just want Femme shep to stop walking like a lumbering gorilla.  I don't want DA2 stripper sway either,  but, something that was a bit more feminine would go a ways.