270 réponses à ce sujet

[CroGamer002]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

If evolution was a fact why is there religion at ALL in Mass effect?

I'm Catholic, believe in God and Jesus but I also believe in evolution.



Argument defeated?

[Mondo47]

didymos1120 wrote...

Yeah, except it's more like one group of kids slaughtered said absentee parent, along with most of its other children, who then fled the house and went on to have children who went on to have more children....

Granted, but I can't see the quarians as blithely innocent. The quarians as a whole are the creators, the geth as a whole are creations. Trying to break it down into "Well, if the geth had just killed all the quarians trying to shut them down it wouldn't be so bad, but they killed all the sweet little old ladies down the street from the robot factory, and that bus full of nuns, and they incinerated that orphanage..." isn't realistic. War, particularly all-out war, has very unpleasant, blurry lines of justifiable action. During it, both armies will do things that pass beyond simple ******-for-tat reprisal, and the prize here wasn't just freedom from oppression, it was existance itself - the quarians would not have stopped until every last one of the geth was destroyed. They didn't try to examine what they'd created, they didn't try to communicate with the geth on equal terms, they just wanted their army of mindless drones back... they'd made the damn things after all. The cheek! Go fetch me another beer, robot!

Yes, I'll concur that both sides have obviously gone too far; no side in a war is blameless and innocent (going back to Frankenstein, even at the very end of it all, the creation knows what it has done to its father is wrong and it must pay with its own life for this - a price it wilingly accepts. demonstrating the humanity the father never saw in it), but the quarians threw the first stone because they wanted the genie back in the bottle, and doing so would have meant committing genocide because their army of slave robots had become self-aware and could no longer be expected to go to their demise like so many placid little pocket calculators. I just take exception to the general thrust here that the quarians are completely blameless in this conflict and the geth have no right to defend themselves, when they simply cannot be seen as so. It seems that a lot of the time, to switch around the words in Shepard's Paragon argument in Tali's judgement in ME2 "This trial isn't about the geth at all, it's about Tali."

[Dave666]

Well said Mondo, I agree, both sides share blame for the conflict, I have never claimed otherwise myself. I simply find it a little offensive when people try to claim things like:

1: The Geth are not sentient. (Blatantly untrue in the ME Universe).

2: That the Geth, because they were created to serve should go back to serving, regardless of what they want. (Thats just bloody slavery).

3: That the Geth should have their sentience removed because they were never intended to be sentient. (Thats like creating a Human clone and lobotomizing it so that it can't think for itself).

[xxSgt_Reed_24xx]

good for you OP.

I will agree that I want choices.... except, I want to be able to convince the Geth to wipe the quarians out. It would serve them right.

[NICKjnp]

Whatever the outcome...I'm making sure the Quarians don't survive ME3.

[Ibanez2009]

If even Tali works together with a Geth as a team... and Admiral Zaal'Koris vas Qwib Qwib is pushig for peace with the geth.. yes. I like that.

Ahh.. I look forward to see what is going to happen, now that I had Legion rewrite the geth I hope that the Quarians and Legion's Geth will coexist.

[Euraud]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

If an artist made a picture and didn't like how it came out, doesn't he have the right to do waway with it?

Now lets suppose that the artist was able to bring this partially organic item to life, and it then became sentient; are you proposing the artist still has the right to do with the picture as they will?

How about we bring this proposal closer to home.
What if the Judaic God were to physically step into our reality, and prove himself to be authentic, and that the Judaic mythos is indeed correct.  IAW Judaic mythos Humans were created by him from stuff that was only partially organic, and without life. He gave the original Humans life and purpose. Humans were originally tools/toys of the Judaic God, and were not self aware until they had eaten from the Tree of Knowledge. Current Humans are not what he originally created; they went beyond his original creation.

If the above was proven to be correct then by your logic the Judaic God would have the right to do whatever he wishes with us; to un-create us, or to change us back to being just tools/toys, and we do not have the right to oppose him.

[Guitar-Hero]

I feel the complete opposite, infact if i am opted to choose between supporting the Geth or supporting th Quarians, i would definately choose the Geth at present time, even if it means putting a bullet through Tali's skull

[abstractwhiz]

Mondo47 wrote...

Granted, but I can't see the quarians as blithely innocent. The quarians as a whole are the creators, the geth as a whole are creations. Trying to break it down into "Well, if the geth had just killed all the quarians trying to shut them down it wouldn't be so bad, but they killed all the sweet little old ladies down the street from the robot factory, and that bus full of nuns, and they incinerated that orphanage..." isn't realistic. War, particularly all-out war, has very unpleasant, blurry lines of justifiable action. During it, both armies will do things that pass beyond simple ******-for-tat reprisal, and the prize here wasn't just freedom from oppression, it was existance itself - the quarians would not have stopped until every last one of the geth was destroyed. They didn't try to examine what they'd created, they didn't try to communicate with the geth on equal terms, they just wanted their army of mindless drones back... they'd made the damn things after all. The cheek! Go fetch me another beer, robot!

Yes, I'll concur that both sides have obviously gone too far; no side in a war is blameless and innocent (going back to Frankenstein, even at the very end of it all, the creation knows what it has done to its father is wrong and it must pay with its own life for this - a price it wilingly accepts. demonstrating the humanity the father never saw in it), but the quarians threw the first stone because they wanted the genie back in the bottle, and doing so would have meant committing genocide because their army of slave robots had become self-aware and could no longer be expected to go to their demise like so many placid little pocket calculators. I just take exception to the general thrust here that the quarians are completely blameless in this conflict and the geth have no right to defend themselves, when they simply cannot be seen as so. It seems that a lot of the time, to switch around the words in Shepard's Paragon argument in Tali's judgement in ME2 "This trial isn't about the geth at all, it's about Tali."

Agreed. I think it's also important to note that the geth have something of an excuse for whatever atrocities they committed at the time - namely, they were children. They had only just achieved sentience, and were suddenly under danger of extermination. So they fought back against the quarians - but did they actually understand the import of their actions? For all we know, they thought they were simply destroying 'quarian platforms', because that's how they work. A newborn intelligence can only base its reasoning upon its own limited experience, after all. 

So there's a very strong possibility that the Geth innocently committed genocide, without even realizing that's what they were doing. They might have thought that they were simply neutralizing the offensive capacity of the enemy, inflicting no real damage beyond loss of materiel and minor memory loss. That's what happens if you destroy geth platforms, after all. The geth are already confused enough about organics. At the dawn of their existence they might just have assumed that all intelligent life was similar to them. It's not like you can carefully investigate the matter when people are trying to kill you. 

As for this creator/creation nonsense, it's irrelevant. Even if the Abrahamic god showed up and claimed he was within his rights to destroy us as our creator, the only relevant question to us would be whether he had the power to force that destruction upon us. I fail to see why any being should kowtow to the whims of its creator, organic or otherwise. If it were programmed to obey, then sure, it wouldn't resist. But if it can resist, there's no point in asserting the rights of the creator. There aren't any, and if the creator wanted some he should have built them into the creation. Therefore the issue needs to be decided by alternate means - negotiation or violence. Compromises are out of the question if the creator demands your destruction, so if he is unwilling to give that up, violent resistance inevitably follows. I don't quite see why this is so hard to follow, or why the whole thing takes on so many religious overtones. <_<

I mean, if God showed up tomorrow and said he was ready to destroy us all, we'd probably say "Change your mind or we'll shoot you in the face with a Cruise missile. Also, where were you during <INSERT LONG LIST OF ATROCITIES HERE>".

I don't see why the geth aren't allowed to do that if the quarians demand their destruction.

[Machazareel]

I read this advocation of re-enslaving the geth because they're apparantly lesser lifeforms and it reminds me profoundly of the primary antagonists in the very game it all originates from. "You exist because we allow it, and you shall die because we demand it". Granted they're not direct creators, but they are the engineers of the galactic spacefaring society which they intend to cull.

Xen's view of the geth seems quite similar to the Reapers' view of organic life. Take from that what you will.

[Team Value]

How can it be assumed that Admiral Xen's plan would even work? The quarians failed to control the geth when they had all the advantages and yet they are somehow supposed to be able to magic them back into being complacent slaves? The game's lore states that geth are highly resistant to hacking attempts.

Xen's plan is insane, because the most likely result is that it will fail, but the geth (who have been pretty much content to ignore organics since the Morning War) might just decide that organics (or at least the quarians) are too dangerous to tolerate any longer. Admiral Xen's plan is essentially her species committing suicide through stupidity.

[Inspectre]

Team Value wrote...
Admiral Xen's plan is essentially her species committing suicide through stupidity.

This is exactly why I am pushing the quarians toward war. 
Hopefully I can have Legion execute tali, after she witnesses her species extinction.


Question:  Does Skynet have a soul?

[didymos1120]

Dragon XIX wrote...
Question:  Does Skynet have a soul?

Better question:  What exactly is a 'soul' anyway and how you know anything has one?  And no, merely asserting that certain things just do doesn't fly.

[didymos1120]

NICKjnp wrote...

Whatever the outcome...I'm making sure the Quarians don't survive ME3.

Right, you think Bioware is actually going to allow pretty much the most popular alien race in ME to be rendered extinct on your whim?  Good luck with that.  At best, there'll be a non-canon "YOU FAIL. EVERYONE DIED" ending. You'll probably be able to get some of them killed, but Bioware will definitely have an out for the species.

[Paulinius]

I like Legion and the Geth. I assume in ME3 you can create three different endings for the Geth/Quarian conflict:

1. Push the Geth into a war with the Quarians while supporting Legion and the Geth.
2. Push the Quarians into a war with the Geth while supporting Tali and the Quarians.
3. Broker a peace between them.

Options one and two leave would possibly leave the loser an extinct species and the victor weakened state which may prevent them from helping you fight the Reapers or at least diminish their effectiveness. The third option is, of course, probably going to be the "right" one in Bioware's eyes seeing that you reap the most rewards from it.

Anyway, if I had to, I would support the Geth above the Quarians. Avoiding the subjective views on the morality of the situation, the Geth are no doubt more numerous and powerful than the Quarians and can quickly move themselves into a war footing. They can crank out soldiers/mobile platforms and ships faster than any organic rate. The Heretics only made up 5% of the Geth, yet their forces (with the aid of Sovereign) inflicted heavy casualties on the Council and human fleet and ground forces. Even after Sovereign's destruction and the loss of their ships at the Battle of the Citadel, the Heretics are still a power that the Council and other races can't even crush. Now imagine bringing in the other 95% of the Geth into that equation.

[Dave666]

didymos1120 wrote...

NICKjnp wrote...

Whatever the outcome...I'm making sure the Quarians don't survive ME3.

Right, you think Bioware is actually going to allow pretty much the most popular alien race in ME to be rendered extinct on your whim?  Good luck with that.  At best, there'll be a non-canon "YOU FAIL. EVERYONE DIED" ending. You'll probably be able to get some of them killed, but Bioware will definitely have an out for the species.

Indeed, its not like Bioware are planning on more games in the Mass Effect Universe or anything...Oh...wait...

[Legbiter]

Don't love them but won't go out of my way to scrap them if they work out a deal with the quarians and leave organics alone.

[Urdnot Orrad]

Legbiter wrote...

Don't love them but won't go out of my way to scrap them if they work out a deal with the quarians and leave organics alone.

The thing with that is, the geth want to be left alone. Only the heretics willingly went beyond the Perseus Veil and attacked organics of any species. Legion was sent out by the true geth, and he was designed, not to kill, but to interact with organics, Commander Shepard specifically.

I'm honestly getting annoyed by posters that say their opinions, but have formed them after not paying attention to the games... did you not talk with Legion at all? I mean, really...

[Hatchetman77]

thatguy212 wrote...

Why is it there is never a thread that takes the other side, like why can't the quarians be forced to serve the geth, or used as the meat shield

...'cause they'd be horrible meat shields with their reliance on environmental suits, weak immune systems and ships held together by duct tape.  They'd be horrible Geth slaves for the same reason.  Now using them as DECOYS is something I can get behind....

[136th]

Geth? peaceful?
Quarians tries to commit genocide. The Geth actually succeed in committing genocide against the quarians. Billions of quarian to 17 millions? You call that peaceful?

They what to be left alone suuuure.
Stay on Rannoch as a big **** you to the quarians
Stand and watch as the heretics tries to bring a galactic extinction event.

Peaceful and want to be left alone? They are just a entire species of jerks who pretend they are innocent and use self-defense as a justification for genocide.

[Carlos3lance]

It's easy to hate the geth...Sweeping a mess under the carpet, then bombarding it with a fire mission is a lot easier than taking responsibility.

The Quarians created the geth, who became self aware and as a result, the quarians tried to exterminate them. And the geth were ******.ed. You can't denie life and freedom to any sentient being without repercussions. It's a fact that hasn't changed for well over 50.000 years of human evoluion and eons more before that.

It's an act of survival on both sides. You can't blame the geth, but then again you can't blame the quarians either. That war was one the Quarians lost, badly.. Regretable and expensive, so it's time to evolve.

Saren's geth were a splinter group, acting separate from the mass collective geth consciousness from behind the Veil and are null and void as an accurate, immediate threat assessment. Both in logistics and limit of determination.

Best approach is to bunker down, draw the perimeter line on the map, secure the geo-political state of Citadel controlled space and terminate unnecessary hostilities. The billions of self replicating geth will never be defeated beyond territorial containment; but an arduous political solution of neutrality - and return to the Quarian capital - in the distant future may not be ruled out - I point to the co-op between Legion and the task-force that took out the Collectors. 

There are always gonna be vastly more alien and deadly threats in the infinity of the galaxy, then a somewhat familiar, semi-ai brood of synthetics.

Modifié par Carlos3lance, 08 avril 2012 - 04:47 .