270 réponses à ce sujet

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Well, she's religious.

To me it seemed that what you implying by saying that the references to evolution in the Codex and dialogue make evolution the "real" thing and that religion was "fake."

[kelmar6821]

the difference of opinion between ramirez and various others in this thread appears to have boiled down to intelligent design vs evolution. seeing as how this universe is a future universe of our own, its as debatable in mass effect as it is in the present; however its not going tocbe decided here.

[Big I]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

@didymos1120

Whether our ancestors were sapient or not depends on what you believe.

In universe, most hanar believe their sapience is the result of a Prothean uplift program (Enkindlers). If it turned out that there was such a program, and that hanar intelligence was an unforseen side effect of that program, would the Protheans have been within their rights to exterminate the hanar? Under your logic they would be.


Furthermore, I hope people that hate the geth for the quarian genocide also hate the rachni and the krogan for their respective galactic death tolls, and the Alliance for funding a program to wipe out the Bahak system.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

@LookingGlass93

Actually no, they wouldn't be, as they did not actually create the hanar.

[didymos1120]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

@LookingGlass93

Actually no, they wouldn't be, as they did not actually create the hanar.

What if they had?  Then what?

[Big I]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

@LookingGlass93

Actually no, they wouldn't be, as they did not actually create the hanar.

There's no definitive evidence either way for that. It's at least conceivable because of the Prothean ruins on Kahje. But whether it's true or not, imagine for a moment it was. Would they be justified in exterminating the hanar?

[Ramirez Wolfen]

If an artist made a picture and didn't like how it came out, doesn't he have the right to do waway with it?

[Dave666]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

I know that the geth are sapient, didymos1120. I believe they shouldn't stay that way.

I design and create a race of clones, my intention is that they be no more intelligent than robots, I alter the dna to ensure that they are not sentient.

But I cocked up.

They are sentient.

It was never my intention, but they are now sentient.

By your reasoning, because I never intended that its perfectly alright to then lobotomize them all. 

[Ramirez Wolfen]

And no, because the hanar cannot be recreated like a geth could.

[LiquidGrape]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

If an artist made a picture and didn't like how it came out, doesn't he have the right to do waway with it?

You're making nonsensical circle-arguments.

They are sentient. They have acquired a sense of being. Reducing them to the unfeeling automaton's the Quarians originally built would be akin to severely lobotomising a human being.

Modifié par LiquidGrape, 24 avril 2011 - 10:21 .

[didymos1120]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

If an artist made a picture and didn't like how it came out, doesn't he have the right to do waway with it?

A picture has no consciousness.  This analogy is not even wrong.

[didymos1120]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

And no, because the hanar cannot be recreated like a geth could.

Sure they could. So long as you had their genetics stored in data form and other info on their biochemistry.  Just need a lab and a lot of creds.

[Big I]

didymos1120 wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

And no, because the hanar cannot be recreated like a geth could.

Sure they could. So long as you had their genetics stored in data form and other info on their biochemistry.  Just need a lab and a lot of creds.

Agreed. But why is duplication even an issue? It's alright to exterminate or lobotomise someone so long as you have the means to make more like them?

[Antivenger]

didymos1120 wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

And no, because the hanar cannot be recreated like a geth could.

Sure they could. So long as you had their genetics stored in data form and other info on their biochemistry.  Just need a lab and a lot of creds.

True! The reason that organics would be harder to duplicate is because they are more complex than synthetics. You could even say that synthetics evolved differently from organics, which is why they are so different. Doesn't mean they aren't sapient.

[didymos1120]

LookingGlass93 wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

And no, because the hanar cannot be recreated like a geth could.

Sure they could. So long as you had their genetics stored in data form and other info on their biochemistry.  Just need a lab and a lot of creds.

Agreed. But why is duplication even an issue? It's alright to exterminate or lobotomise someone so long as you have the means to make more like them?

Ramirez seems to think that because you can't duplicate people, that gives them a special status.  Of course, this is looking at the wrong thing: individual geth runtimes aren't what should be compared to individuals of other species.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

It seems you may have missed the point with the artist thing. Regardless of whether it is sapient, if it (as in a non-organic) was created by something/someone, they should have the right to do whatever they wish with it.

@LiquidGrape Geth don't feel the same as organics. Also, is it safe to assume you are against rewriting the geth on Legion's loyalty mission?

@didymos1120 Are you referencing the Lazarus Project?

[Ashira Shepard]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

If an artist made a picture and didn't like how it came out, doesn't he have the right to do waway with it?

So in this case, because the creation has become too willful it's okay for the creator to destroy it?

Alma Wade would like a word with you...

Modifié par AshiraShepard, 24 avril 2011 - 10:26 .

[Big I]

didymos1120 wrote...

Ramirez seems to think that because you can't duplicate people, that gives them a special status.  Of course, this is looking at the wrong thing: individual geth runtimes aren't what should be compared to individuals of other species.

I imagine a rachni hive consciousness would be the closest comparison in universe to a geth network like Legion.

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

It seems you may have missed the point with the artist thing. Regardless of whether it is sapient, if it (as in a non-organic) was created by something/someone, they should have the right to do whatever they wish with it.

What about clones? Or genetically engineered intelligent life forms? If Cerberus or the Alliance made those, would they have such a right? Did Okeer have the right to do whatever he wanted with Grunt?

Modifié par LookingGlass93, 24 avril 2011 - 10:28 .

[Dave666]

didymos1120 wrote...

LookingGlass93 wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

And no, because the hanar cannot be recreated like a geth could.

Sure they could. So long as you had their genetics stored in data form and other info on their biochemistry.  Just need a lab and a lot of creds.

Agreed. But why is duplication even an issue? It's alright to exterminate or lobotomise someone so long as you have the means to make more like them?

Ramirez seems to think that because you can't duplicate people, that gives them a special status.  Of course, this is looking at the wrong thing: individual geth runtimes aren't what should be compared to individuals of other species.

Also claiming that organics can't be duplicated is flawed to begin with.

Commander Shepard asked me to say hi.

Shep died and was resurrected, exactly the same as before death.

If you can recreate the thought patterns and memories two years after brain death, then you can produce a clone and alter those memories and thought paterns to create the same outcome.

[didymos1120]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

@didymos1120 Are you referencing the Lazarus Project?

Oh, so you're talking about individual hanar? See my comment about runtimes being the wrong thing to compare to individuals then.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

@Dave666 Shepard wasn't "recreated." They took Shepard's remains and built off of them.

[Inspectre]

Dave666 wrote...
... then you can produce a clone and alter those memories and thought paterns to create the same outcome.

Yes, but the clone would have no soul. 
Sentience =/= Soul.


Also, death to the quarians.

Modifié par Dragon XIX, 24 avril 2011 - 10:33 .

[Big I]

Dragon XIX wrote...

Dave666 wrote...
... then you can produce a clone and alter those memories and thought paterns to create the same outcome.

Yes, but the clone would have no soul. 
Sentience =/= Soul.


Also, death to the quarians.

Do identical twins have souls?

[didymos1120]

Dragon XIX wrote...

Dave666 wrote...
... then you can produce a clone and alter those memories and thought paterns to create the same outcome.

Yes, but the clone would have no soul. 
Sentience =/= Soul.

Oh, and how do you know this?  Can one test to see that the soul is missing?

[didymos1120]

LookingGlass93 wrote...

Do identical twins have souls?

Or, what about Grunt and other tank-born krogan?