66 réponses à ce sujet

[TobiTobsen]

Plaintiff wrote...

Man, if Anders had rigged the Chantry to explode in time with an orchestral score, that would be awesome.

Yeah... he totally forgot the Overture by Tchaikovsky. Without that it wasn't epic enough to convince me that his bombing of the chantry was righteous

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The major difference is that V for Vendetta did not try to "liberate" mages. He tried to free all of Britain from an oppresive government.
V did something for the majority.
Anders ****ed over the majority in favor of a dangerous minority.

There is a world of adifference between the two characters. The only simily being that they blew up a building.

except the minority is now steadily increasing. Talk to the man in the Hanged man, and he says that there are more and more mages then there used to be.

Of course, he attributes this to lyrium in the water, which would make some sense considering if it is in the water it's most likely been diluted into what Templars drink.

But then again, this is a man who worships cheese. Can't say I blame him though. Cheese is good.

Plaintiff wrote...

Man, if Anders had rigged the Chantry to explode in time with an orchestral score, that would be awesome.

someone should make a youtube video of the Jengafied Chantry with Tchaikovsky (sp?)

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 24 avril 2011 - 03:21 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The major difference is that V for Vendetta did not try to "liberate" mages. He tried to free all of Britain from an oppresive government.
V did something for the majority.
Anders ****ed over the majority in favor of a dangerous minority.

There is a world of adifference between the two characters. The only simily being that they blew up a building.

except the minority is now steadily increasing. Talk to the man in the Hanged man, and he says that there are more and more mages then there used to be.

Of course, he attributes this to lyrium in the water, which would make some sense considering if it is in the water it's most likely been diluted into what Templars drink.

But then again, this is a man who worships cheese. Can't say I blame him though. Cheese is good.

I don't think you should take anything he says seriously. Most of what he says is just a humorous reference to the game itself or DA:O. For instance the mage remark is just a reference to how a mage is a common enemy in DA2 while there only was a limited amount of encounters with mages in DA:O.

[TEWR]

who's to say it isn't both?


I mean, if that comment came from a less insane, cheese worshipping, had-sex-at-least-once-in-his-whole-entire-life source; people might take him seriously on that comment.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

who's to say it isn't both?


I mean, if that comment came from a less insane, cheese worshipping, had-sex-at-least-once-in-his-whole-entire-life source; people might take him seriously on that comment.

Exactly. But no one else even makes the briefest mention of it. Which leads me to conclude, nothing the Talkative Man says, can be trusted.
But even if it were true. Mages are still a minority. And a very dangerous one at that.

[TEWR]

if it is indeed true, then with the growth rate of mage presence, eventually the minority will be on almost if not completely equal terms with the rest of the populus.

Also, I could've sworn someone else mentioned it. But don't take me on my word for that.

[TEWR]

have I unintentionally killed my own thread?

[highcastle]

infinite bias wrote...

You have some valid points about Ander's character development that I overlooked, but I think they actually fit into my argument. If Anders is capable of becoming radicalized simply by witnessing the oppression of mages in Kirkwall under Meredith's rule then why is Justice needed at all?

Justice detracts and cheapens from the impact of Ander's actions. Instead of the tragedy of the man who has become so desperate and so committed to an abstract idea of freedom that he is willing to resort to terrorism to achieve his goals, we have instead a person simply  suffering from a mental illness (which is what Justice is a metaphor for IMO) who is driven to mass murder by the voices in his head. 

To me the former is a far more appealing narrative than the latter and the presence of Justice will always put doubt to that interpretation, because really, by Act 3, who knows whether its Anders or Justice calling the shots?

I'm ridiculously late to responding to this, but those are the perils of having a life.

I disagree that Justice detracts from the impact of Anders' actions. You're absolutely right that Justice is a metaphor for mental illness. Ms. Hepler confirmed this in a blog post. How does that make Anders any less tragic, though? Bipolar disorder runs in my family. I've watched loved ones wrestle to control their actions and moods and sadly fail. I myself was once hospitalized for depression. I don't see Anders/Justice as an example of the-voices-made-me-do-it so much as I'm-trying-to-control-myself-but-I-just-can't.

Remember that Anders does not say he hears voices. Justice's thoughts are his own.To me this is a metaphor for someone struggling to maintain control of their behavior and failing. While that might not seem appealing to you, anyone who's suffered from mental illness or loved someone with such a condition will tell you it's a powerful and heart-wrenching experience. It's also one you don't see portrayed in media very often. That Ms. Hepler did so and kept Anders sympathetic is heartening to me.

[Eternal Phoenix]

I made this and it sums up what I think of Anders:

[element eater]

Anders destroyed the chance for compromise and a peaceful solution and killed one of the few people in kirkwall that wasn't totally insane.
V tried to topple a corrupt government

I don't really see any similarity between the acts

[highcastle]

element eater wrote...

Anders destroyed the chance for compromise and a peaceful solution and killed one of the few people in kirkwall that wasn't totally insane.
V tried to topple a corrupt government

I don't really see any similarity between the acts

This implies you think V is an unambiguous hero. V killed people, including those who were not so bad. Susan himself wasn't a terrible monster in the original novel. V torture Evey. He let her lover die when he possibly could have saved him. In short, he was a selfish and morally gray as Anders.

Both V and Anders are also anarchists to a large degree. When Anders blew up the Chantry, he was blowing up not just a chance of compromise, but also the symbol of organized religion in Kirkwall. It could be construed as a blow against organization in general. Certainly he seems willing to work outside the law.

[Maria Caliban]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Anders showed the people how corrupt both the Chantry and the Circle are in their current state.

I don't think this was in my copy of the game.

[hoorayforicecream]

Maria Caliban wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Anders showed the people how corrupt both the Chantry and the Circle are in their current state.

I don't think this was in my copy of the game.

I thought Petrice and Orsino were pretty corrupt. But I don't see how Anders showed me that. Those two showed me on their own.

[TEWR]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Anders showed the people how corrupt both the Chantry and the Circle are in their current state.

I don't think this was in my copy of the game.

I thought Petrice and Orsino were pretty corrupt. But I don't see how Anders showed me that. Those two showed me on their own.

I can't talk about Petrice, but Orsino and Meredith...

They showed YOU. They showed Hawke and company. But it was through Anders' actions that their corruption was finally revealed to everyone else. Now, of course Meredith is not the entire Chantry/Templars and Orsino isn't the entire Circle.

But when Meredith called the Right of Annulment, none of the Templars took issue with it. None of them took issue with the fact that what she had just invoked was an assault on a Circle that was innocent of a crime committed by an apostate and was not beyond saving.

She had wanted to call for the Right of Annulment for some time, even going so far as to request permission from the Divine. It was after Elthina was killed that she realized what she wanted was now within her power. She didn't invoke it to avenge Elthina. She invoked it because Elthina died and Elthina was the only thing keeping her from doing that.

Orsino's and the Circle's actions were a direct result of living in a negative state with a corrupt Templar Order, who is by definition, an extension of the Chantry. Because the Templars were being ruthless and squeezing the mages tighter and tighter, making them Tranquil, raping them, etc.; they fought back using blood magic. Which as we all know is condemned by the Chantry. Their corruption can certainly be seen as self-defense, but it is corruption through and through.

Anders' actions shed light on everything because until Orsino attempted to get the nobility and other citizens to fight against Meredith, the populus of Kirkwall believed Meredith was acting in their best interests and doing what was good.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 25 avril 2011 - 12:51 .

[Rifneno]

element eater wrote...

Anders destroyed the chance for compromise and a peaceful solution and killed one of the few people in kirkwall that wasn't totally insane.
V tried to topple a corrupt government

I don't really see any similarity between the acts

Yeah, there was totally a chance for peaceful compromise...  

Elthina being sane is exactly why I spit on her charred corpse.  Virtually everyone else who did wrong had at least some mitigating factor to their psyche.  Meredith has childhood trauma and the lyrium idol, Anders has a twisted spirit of justice in his head, Orsino had the Kirkwall insanity vortex...  Elthina has no excuse for why she sits on her worthless hide and lets people under her command commit atrocity after atrocity.  If Elthina had been mentally, physically, and sexually abused until she took her own life like so many mages in her charge, I still wouldn't feel bad for her.  What a completely and utterly worthless human being she is.

[Bigdoser]

Don't forget that templars can nullify mana so how else can a mage fight templars guess what BLOOD MAGIC. So its not suprising that mages use it since its pretty much their only weapon when fighting templars. I don't know why templars don't use their spell cancel skill so don't ask me.

Modifié par Bigdoser, 25 avril 2011 - 02:49 .

[Skokes]

Untarr wrote...

The great thing with fiction is that it isn't real. A tree is not always
just a tree. Even if the author intended it to be so, someone can read a
deeper meaning into it.

 

It's been years, and I can't remember what book that is from.  I know it was set during WWII at a New England university/college and one of the main events had to do with this tree the students would jump off of.  If you could, as an aside, let me know what that is, I would be greatful! (or if you were just making it up as an example, don't worry)

You're thinking of A Seperate Peace, I believe.

In DA2, what we have is almost a contrived build up.  Anders really doesn't seem capable of destruction on that scale.  We have one indication in Act 2 (the girl he girls or almost kills), but going from killing one person to wiping out the chantry seems like such a huge leap of logic/faith/aggressiveness that it caught me REALLY off guard, and not in a good way.  Its almost as if "oh yeah, I'm supposed to be REALLY ANGRY NOW !" *blows up building*.  There is no climax to the occaision, it just happens and then we have to deal with it.

I think if the story did a better job (more personal quests with him involving increasingly escalated acts of violence) of setting it up, I would be more able to believe the character is capable of such an atrocity.  As it is written right now, it goes far beyond my suspension of disbelief, especially if you consider his character in Awakenings.

My roomie's playing through Awakening now, and it should be noted that Anders harbors violent fantasies about Templars from the outset. He wants the power to rain lightning down on templars. He expresses glee at the thought of a cat possessed by a rage demon killing three templars. Those lines, which seem largely innocent in that expansion, seem a whole lot darker with the context of DAII.

Modifié par Skokes, 25 avril 2011 - 07:39 .

[TEWR]

Not to mention he laughed when Biff the Templar died from a darkspawn attack and the gurgle Biff made. I just have one question though...


Who the hell names their kid Biff?!

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 25 avril 2011 - 08:18 .

[Rifneno]

The only reason anyone WOULDN'T take joy in templars' deaths in his shoes at that time is if they were suffering from Stockholm Syndrome.

[element eater]

Rifneno wrote...
Yeah, there was totally a chance for peaceful compromise...  

 Anders does say that killing her means there can be no compromise so pressumably he thought there might be if the chantry survived

[Dean_the_Young]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...


except the minority is now steadily increasing. Talk to the man in the Hanged man, and he says that there are more and more mages then there used to be.

Was there ever any implication that they were growing as a fraction of the population?

[Plaintiff]

element eater wrote...

Rifneno wrote...
Yeah, there was totally a chance for peaceful compromise...  

 Anders does say that killing her means there can be no compromise so pressumably he thought there might be if the chantry survived

What he actually says is "I removed the chance for compromise because there is no compromise."

The "compromise" Elthina represents isn't a real compromise at all, it's just a continuation of the (unacceptable) status quo. She can send Meredith and Orsino back to their rooms to think about what they've done, but that doesn't fix anything, it's like slapping a bandaid on a ruptured artery. The issue does not get resolved. Orsino gets shot down without having his piece heard, Meredith get scolded but never punished and she just keeps pressing on the mages more and more until the next public fight.

The worst part is Elthina could've done something. As Grand Cleric her authority supercedes Meredith's and she could actually have had her removed. The situation in Kirkwall was so utterly crap that basically taking any sort of action would've made things better. But she didn't. She might as well have got the **** out of dodge when the Divine told her to, she certainly didn't help matters by staying.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 25 avril 2011 - 01:31 .

[thermalware]

Plaintiff wrote...

element eater wrote...

Rifneno wrote...
Yeah, there was totally a chance for peaceful compromise...  

 Anders does say that killing her means there can be no compromise so pressumably he thought there might be if the chantry survived

What he actually says is "I removed the chance for compromise because there is no compromise."

The "compromise" Elthina represents isn't a real compromise at all, it's just a continuation of the (unacceptable) status quo. She can send Meredith and Orsino back to their rooms to think about what they've done, but that doesn't fix anything, it's like slapping a bandaid on a ruptured artery. The issue does not get resolved. Orsino gets shot down without having his piece heard, Meredith get scolded but never punished and she just keeps pressing on the mages more and more until the next public fight.

The worst part is Elthina could've done something. As Grand Cleric her authority supercedes Meredith's and she could actually have had her removed. The situation in Kirkwall was so utterly crap that basically taking any sort of action would've made things better. But she didn't. She might as well have got the **** out of dodge when the Divine told her to, she certainly didn't help matters by staying.

You just contradicted yourself. If elthania could have done something then there was compromise. Ask yourself, why do templars exist? To hunt down bloodmages. Bloodmages if left unchecked are completely bad for everyone, including other mages.

The only sane conclusion to problem is compromise, not all out war.

[Plaintiff]

thermalware wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

element eater wrote...

Rifneno wrote...
Yeah, there was totally a chance for peaceful compromise...  

 Anders does say that killing her means there can be no compromise so pressumably he thought there might be if the chantry survived

What he actually says is "I removed the chance for compromise because there is no compromise."

The "compromise" Elthina represents isn't a real compromise at all, it's just a continuation of the (unacceptable) status quo. She can send Meredith and Orsino back to their rooms to think about what they've done, but that doesn't fix anything, it's like slapping a bandaid on a ruptured artery. The issue does not get resolved. Orsino gets shot down without having his piece heard, Meredith get scolded but never punished and she just keeps pressing on the mages more and more until the next public fight.

The worst part is Elthina could've done something. As Grand Cleric her authority supercedes Meredith's and she could actually have had her removed. The situation in Kirkwall was so utterly crap that basically taking any sort of action would've made things better. But she didn't. She might as well have got the **** out of dodge when the Divine told her to, she certainly didn't help matters by staying.

You just contradicted yourself. If elthania could have done something then there was compromise. Ask yourself, why do templars exist? To hunt down bloodmages. Bloodmages if left unchecked are completely bad for everyone, including other mages.

The only sane conclusion to problem is compromise, not all out war.

No there wasn't. In a hypothetical scenario where Elthina isn't a pathetic, spineless **** who masks bigotry with false sympathy, the situation could've been improved, yes. But only in a very minor sense. Maybe Cullen replaces Meredith as Knight-Commander. Maybe. But he's only more sane, not less bigoted, and would likely still overlook (or be completely unaware) of the abuses occurring among the templar ranks.

The overall problem, the oppression of the Circle, would still exist, and and would still be grossly unjust. The Chantry is the real power of Thedas and every word it teaches is how magic is the source of all evil and mages get what they deserve just for existing. Any mage who speaks openly against Chantry teachings risks being made tranquil, if not being executed outright. There is no compromise because the Chantry refuses to listen to, and actively silences any dissenters. The Chantry doesn't want a compromise and it doesn't need one. Why would it? It has all the power while the mages have none. The only way a real compromise is going to happen (as opposed to a ****ty pretend one where nothing actually changes) is if the mages forcibly emancipate themselves from the Chantry and start actively fighting for their interests. Which, surprise surprise, they finally did. And about time too.
 
I know why Templars exist, that's not the issue. The problem is that they are given absolute power of life and death over a group of people that they have been indoctrinated  to hate and fear from childhood. Not every mage is a blood mage, and blood mages are not inherently evil. Merrill and Jowan never knowingly hurt anyone and opt to use their powers to help and protect others, should they be hunted down and killed?

Not that it matters because the templars aren't hunting down anything anyway, they spend the bulk of their time in the Circle, apparently abusing their power and status to bully mages who are only guilty of the crime of being born.

Mages have the potential to be extremely dangerous. Every human being does. But we don't lock people up for **** they didn't even ****ing do. Imprisoning mages by default, without proper cause, only serves to alienate them from humanity and breed the anger and resentment that leads them to turn to demons in the first place.

[EmperorSahlertz]

So in their attempt to prove the people wrong, they turn to the very thing the people suspects them of. Yeah, mages can't be trusted.