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Anders is V. The Chantry is Parliament.


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#51
thermalware

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No there wasn't. In a hypothetical scenario where Elthina isn't a pathetic, spineless **** who masks bigotry with false sympathy, the situation could've been improved, yes. But only in a very minor sense. Maybe Cullen replaces Meredith as Knight-Commander. Maybe. But he's only more sane, not less bigoted, and would likely still overlook (or be completely unaware) of the abuses occurring among the templar ranks.

The overall problem, the oppression of the Circle, would still exist, and and would still be grossly unjust. The Chantry is the real power of Thedas and every word it teaches is how magic is the source of all evil and mages get what they deserve just for existing. Any mage who speaks openly against Chantry teachings risks being made tranquil, if not being executed outright. There is no compromise because the Chantry refuses to listen to, and actively silences any dissenters. The Chantry doesn't want a compromise and it doesn't need one. Why would it? It has all the power while the mages have none. The only way a real compromise is going to happen (as opposed to a ****ty pretend one where nothing actually changes) is if the mages forcibly emancipate themselves from the Chantry and start actively fighting for their interests. Which, surprise surprise, they finally did. And about time too.
 
I know why Templars exist, that's not the issue. The problem is that they are given absolute power of life and death over a group of people that they have been indoctrinated  to hate and fear from childhood. Not every mage is a blood mage, and blood mages are not inherently evil. Merrill and Jowan never knowingly hurt anyone and opt to use their powers to help and protect others, should they be hunted down and killed?

Not that it matters because the templars aren't hunting down anything anyway, they spend the bulk of their time in the Circle, apparently abusing their power and status to bully mages who are only guilty of the crime of being born.

Mages have the potential to be extremely dangerous. Every human being does. But we don't lock people up for **** they didn't even ****ing do. Imprisoning mages by default, without proper cause, only serves to alienate them from humanity and breed the anger and resentment that leads them to turn to demons in the first place.



Calm down bro. Mages are the problem, the solution is compromise. When you have one subset of people that can practice blood magic, and be posessed by demons they will have be controlled. There's no way around that little fact.  You may not like the chantry/circle/templars but they do exist for a reason and that reason is important. Mages cannot police their own, hence the templars, and not EVERYONE is a mage, mages aren't a distinct group, they can't go form their own country somewhere. They need to coexist

Replacing Meredit and Orsino would have easily rectified the majority of the abuses against the mages. Not all the templars were against mages and not all the mages were doing blood magic, that was my impression anyway. Starting a war helps no one, especially mages.

Modifié par thermalware, 25 avril 2011 - 02:55 .


#52
TEWR

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Mages cannot police their own


two words: Mages' Collective

#53
EmperorSahlertz

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...


Mages cannot police their own


two words: Mages' Collective

They do not police their own. They care nothing if their members are practicing blood magic.

#54
KnightofPhoenix

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...


Mages cannot police their own


two words: Mages' Collective


It's still an experiment though. But it could be institutionalized.

I am of the opinion that mages can be policed by mages and Templar like warriors who work for the state.

#55
TEWR

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EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...


Mages cannot police their own


two words: Mages' Collective

They do not police their own. They care nothing if their members are practicing blood magic.


wrong. They are a self-policing force of mages, as the man at the Docks can tell you. They give you a few quests to hunt down maleficarum within the collective.

They obviously do care.

#56
EmperorSahlertz

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...


Mages cannot police their own


two words: Mages' Collective

They do not police their own. They care nothing if their members are practicing blood magic.


wrong. They are a self-policing force of mages, as the man at the Docks can tell you. They give you a few quests to hunt down maleficarum within the collective.

They obviously do care.

They are in DA2? I wouldn't know since i destroy them in DA:O in all my playthroughs.
In DA:O they did not care wether or not a mage were a maleficar.

#57
TEWR

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oops. Lake Calenhad Docks I meant, not DA2 docks

no in DA:O they gave you a quest where 4 maleficarum had been operating near the Brecilian forest. You were supposed to kill them. these maleficarum are responsible for murdering a mage of the collective.

Also, here is the Mages' Collective Codex entry:

Despite the Loyalists' grasp on the mages' political community, many Libertarians and Aequitarians have begun to see eye to eye with respect to the Chantry's role in a mage's daily life. A growing number of mages, particularly those whose magic never strays from the Maker's mandate, feel that the Chantry's constant oversight is a burden upon their creativity and their very will, and one that hinders their ability to do their work.
These mages, along with a number of hedge wizards who work their arts outside the Chantry's influence, have formed a shadow-guild of sorts, a mages' collective, wherein members can submit requests and have them seen to without judgement. This collective manages to work in relative secrecy, their members discreet and their clients anonymous. As of yet, this collective has seen no sanction from the templars, and there has been no sign that its members are practicing magic of which the Maker would not approve.
Still, practicing magic outside of the influence of the Chantry is a dream for some and a dangerous notion for others, and many believe that it is only a matter of time before the veil of secrecy is lifted and the mages' collective is brought to swift and brutal justice.
--From A Treatise on Magic and Politics, by First Enchanter Josephus.


Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 25 avril 2011 - 04:24 .


#58
The Angry One

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If Anders is V, then that explains why half my Hawkes end up looking like Natalie Portman.

#59
KnightofPhoenix

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The Angry One wrote...

If Anders is V, then that explains why half my Hawkes end up looking like Natalie Portman.


Bald?

#60
TEWR

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The Angry One wrote...

If Anders is V, then that explains why half my Hawkes end up looking like Natalie Portman.


You know, when I first made this thread after I put "The Chantry is Parliament" I was gonna add "and Hawke is Evey Hammond. Even if Hawke is a guy". But I felt it would've detracted from the serious discussion I wanted to have.

#61
EmperorSahlertz

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

oops. Lake Calenhad Docks I meant, not DA2 docks

no in DA:O they gave you a quest where 4 maleficarum had been operating near the Brecilian forest. You were supposed to kill them. these maleficarum are responsible for murdering a mage of the collective.

Also, here is the Mages' Collective Codex entry:



Despite the Loyalists' grasp on the mages' political community, many Libertarians and Aequitarians have begun to see eye to eye with respect to the Chantry's role in a mage's daily life. A growing number of mages, particularly those whose magic never strays from the Maker's mandate, feel that the Chantry's constant oversight is a burden upon their creativity and their very will, and one that hinders their ability to do their work.
These mages, along with a number of hedge wizards who work their arts outside the Chantry's influence, have formed a shadow-guild of sorts, a mages' collective, wherein members can submit requests and have them seen to without judgement. This collective manages to work in relative secrecy, their members discreet and their clients anonymous. As of yet, this collective has seen no sanction from the templars, and there has been no sign that its members are practicing magic of which the Maker would not approve.
Still, practicing magic outside of the influence of the Chantry is a dream for some and a dangerous notion for others, and many believe that it is only a matter of time before the veil of secrecy is lifted and the mages' collective is brought to swift and brutal justice.
--From A Treatise on Magic and Politics, by First Enchanter Josephus.

The funny thing about that quest is that he doesn't send you to kill them because they are maleficars, but because they are conducting their rituals too close to his own lair. He have them killed out of fear for his own discovery.
And just because there is no sign (at the time of writing) of the collective using Blood Magic, does not rule out the possibility.

#62
TEWR

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likewise you can't say they don't care if mages are using blood magic (which isn't evil in and of itself. only the people who use it for evil purposes are) when you haven't seen any evidence of Maleficarum actually within the collective.

I think it's wrong to assume the worst of the Collective.

#63
EmperorSahlertz

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

likewise you can't say they don't care if mages are using blood magic (which isn't evil in and of itself. only the people who use it for evil purposes are) when you haven't seen any evidence of Maleficarum actually within the collective.

I think it's wrong to assume the worst of the Collective.

It is equally wrong to assume the best of them.

#64
Rifneno

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EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The funny thing about that quest is that he doesn't send you to kill them because they are maleficars, but because they are conducting their rituals too close to his own lair. He have them killed out of fear for his own discovery.
And just because there is no sign (at the time of writing) of the collective using Blood Magic, does not rule out the possibility.


*sigh*  I'm really gonna regret this, I just know it...  but yes, there's tons of evidence.  They don't even try to hide it.  One of the earliest quests involves warning blood mages about the templars being onto them.  Another quest involves bribing a knight-commander in Redcliffe.  However, while it's clear they don't condemn blood magic outright (as TEWR points out, blood magic isn't inherently evil, the Chantry just fears what it's capable of) there's no evidence that they support mages who harm innocents.

#65
TEWR

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actually, they were being accused of being blood mages, but whether they were or not isn't made clear.

Also, you were warning family members, not the actual mages.

Bribing the Knight Commander of Redcliffe is only done so that they can keep the Templars off their backs. They are apostates after all. It has nothing to do with blood magic.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 25 avril 2011 - 10:42 .


#66
TEWR

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bump? If there was something in this thread I hadn't already addressed, I'd bump it in a creative way. but there isn't. So bump.

#67
FedericoV

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@OP: I completely agree and infact I named him Gay Fawkes :D.