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[Labrev]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

DrXenu wrote...
It has nothing to gain from lying.

Her life.

More likely to lie, but not less likely to tell the truth.

There's a difference.

[Skarwael]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

DrXenu wrote...
It has nothing to gain from lying.

Her life.

The thing about that is that I don't think the nature of their race means that they would understand the concept of lying. They are telepathic, at least the queen is.

Benezia also had to force the location of the Mu relay out of it, which means it was not cooperative with Saren's cause from the start.

[KnightofPhoenix]

She may or may not be sincere, quite frankly I did not care when I made the decison. I was simply saying, she had reasons to lie.

Skarwael wrote...
Benezia also had to force the location of the Mu relay out of it, which means it was not cooperative with Saren's cause from the start.

It doesn't have to to be a very possible threat, both short and long term. Why would it even want to cooperate with Saren.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 25 avril 2011 - 05:28 .

[PMC65]

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

I just could not see risking the future on an already extinct species. Given what my Shep has heard about the rachni, it would be like deciding on the fate of a Tyrannosaurus rex. The risks were too high no matter what she "promised".

I'd have agreed with this before, but talking to the queen totally changed my perspective.

The Rachni Queen proved its not a beast like the T-Rex, but that it's intelligent. Dinosaurs don't communicate through dead people or create their own ships. The very reason the rachni we encountered in the facility were hostile was our own fault, we seperated it from its mother, and they developed incorrectly. The scientist you meet to initiate that neutron purge said it himself, they are a great species, our interference was what messed them up. We don't know what caused them to become a galactic threat that had to be wiped out a few years ago, but that's not a crime for which this queen was responsible.

Ultimately, I felt this species deserved to be given a chance to create anew, especially when it has given its word to do so peacefully. Can it be trusted? Maybe, maybe not. But you can't just go about killing anything/anyone that might be a threat, or you can justify killing everybody. Who am I to deny it life/freedom because I perceive it a "risk"?

But in the same line of question about "who am I"? Who am I to set a species free on the galaxy that according to the ME world  are "intelligent and highly aggressive"? Now, if it had read "stupid and extremely passive" she may have had a chance. I realize that the Queen is promising to be good and write songs about the Shep ("What a Fool Believes") but words are not always true and considering she is fighting for her life, well.  

In letting her live, I am rolling the dice on all life in citadel space and beyond. Given that there are not enough Krogan to defeat the rachni if I am wrong and a Reaper party heading to the front door ....  What would be my balm as the universe is bloodied once again by the rachni on top of the reaper? All good deeds ... as they say. 

[Sebby]

Skarwael wrote...

My first playthrough, I killed the Rachni queen because it seemed like a big risk to galaxy.

However, now that I've gotten used to the "feel" of the game, I seriously doubt that you'd be punished for setting it free. I think paragons would throw a gigantic hissy fit and I doubt the writers would want that to happen.

I can't think of the appropriate word, but it seems like the right outcome to allow a formerly enslaved race it's freedom for them to fight the reapers in the final battle.

The Game Informer ME3 article had a picture of a Rachni Husk. So, that's a negative consequence right there.

[wizardryforever]

I almost always let her go for a few reasons.  First, she is very clearly the last of her kind, born long after the war ended.  She was not involved in the war anymore than Shepard was.  Punishing her for the actions of her ancestors is ridiculous. 
Second, the chance that she might be lying is no greater than the chance that she is telling the truth.  There is enough supplementary information for me to at least consider what she is saying.  She claims that her ancestors were mind controlled.  We know about indoctrination by the time we have this conversation, it is too familiar of a story to be a pure fabrication or coincidence.  The fact that her race was indoctrinated pretty much contaminates the popular belief that the Rachni were aggressive conquerors. 
Third, I simply don't have enough reason to kill her.  She has not done anything to hurt anyone, and is lonely and frightened.  Her children have been taken from her and she has been caged and mind-raped by Benezia.  If she was anything but a Rachni, no one would kill her in that situation.  People see her as a "bug" despite the fact that she can communicate with you and her people built spaceships.  She's not an animal that has to be put down, she's a scared mother (possibly the last of her kind) who just wants to protect her children.  Considering she asks Shepard to put her current ones out of their misery just kinda seals the deal for me.

[Skarwael]

Seboist wrote...

Skarwael wrote...

My first playthrough, I killed the Rachni queen because it seemed like a big risk to galaxy.

However, now that I've gotten used to the "feel" of the game, I seriously doubt that you'd be punished for setting it free. I think paragons would throw a gigantic hissy fit and I doubt the writers would want that to happen.

I can't think of the appropriate word, but it seems like the right outcome to allow a formerly enslaved race it's freedom for them to fight the reapers in the final battle.

The Game Informer ME3 article had a picture of a Rachni Husk. So, that's a negative consequence right there.

That doesn't mean the entire race has been indoctrinated, just a few unlucky ones. Just as with the other races.

[wizardryforever]

Seboist wrote...

Skarwael wrote...

My first playthrough, I killed the Rachni queen because it seemed like a big risk to galaxy.

However, now that I've gotten used to the "feel" of the game, I seriously doubt that you'd be punished for setting it free. I think paragons would throw a gigantic hissy fit and I doubt the writers would want that to happen.

I can't think of the appropriate word, but it seems like the right outcome to allow a formerly enslaved race it's freedom for them to fight the reapers in the final battle.

The Game Informer ME3 article had a picture of a Rachni Husk. So, that's a negative consequence right there.

It's very possible that hostile Rachni exist regardless of the queen, since Cerberus decided it would be a cool idea to clone them and then have another colossal security failure.  Recall that the "insane" Rachni had spread to multiple planets.  No way we got them all.

[InvincibleHero]

It seems logical to do so. Note she is the only queen right now. She will presumably birth other queens that might not think as she does. They could go hostile mighty quick and overrun the galaxy.

[Sebby]

wizardryforever wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Skarwael wrote...

My first playthrough, I killed the Rachni queen because it seemed like a big risk to galaxy.

However, now that I've gotten used to the "feel" of the game, I seriously doubt that you'd be punished for setting it free. I think paragons would throw a gigantic hissy fit and I doubt the writers would want that to happen.

I can't think of the appropriate word, but it seems like the right outcome to allow a formerly enslaved race it's freedom for them to fight the reapers in the final battle.

The Game Informer ME3 article had a picture of a Rachni Husk. So, that's a negative consequence right there.

It's very possible that hostile Rachni exist regardless of the queen, since Cerberus decided it would be a cool idea to clone them and then have another colossal security failure.  Recall that the "insane" Rachni had spread to multiple planets.  No way we got them all.

But there's no indicator there was a Queen besides the one in Noveria.

[Labrev]

@PCM65 (can't quote on iTouch)

Incorrect on one count: rachni are not aggressive. Not unless threatened.

Again, you can justify killing anything and everything for posing a potential threat. That alone is not good enough reason to do so. Especially not when the subject is guilty of no crime anyway.

She not only promises to be civil (a promise that she's not really in a position to renege even after you free her) but also knows what happened to her ancestors for threatening the galaxy: they were wiped out completely. And acknowledges this in front of you. Ultimately, there isn't good enough excuse left to not take her word, unless you are just very untrusting of people in general.

[SalsaDMA]

PMC65 wrote...
 Who am I to set a species free on the galaxy that according to the ME world  are "intelligent and highly aggressive"?

The Turians were also "intelligent and highly aggressive" when we first met them in the first contact war...

That didn't mean we couldn't solve our differences through communication. The rachni queen and Shepard were the first real communicative 'breach' made in the history of the ME universe.

Fromthe wiki:

Negotiation with the rachni was impossible; their leaders, the rachni queens, dwelt in deep underground nests, on worlds so hostile no one could survive them.

I don't see the rachni as being any different fromt he turians in this regard.

[Homebound]

killiing the rachni, my thoughts? DONT DO IT!

[GodWood]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Had them exterminated. A regrettable necessity. But their very nature makes them very hard if impossible to integrate into a galactic community, and it makes them a very potential short and long term threat.

This

[AdmiralCheez]

My reason for not killing the rachni was rather petty--drowning a giant bug in acid makes me squeamish.

[SalsaDMA]

GodWood wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Had them exterminated. A regrettable necessity. But their very nature makes them very hard if impossible to integrate into a galactic community, and it makes them a very potential short and long term threat.

This

Pray tell what nature that is? Would it happen to be the same that we have seen evidenced in the Krogan and the Turians, or even the Batarians? 3 other species that are arguable 'integrated' into a galactic community?

[corporal doody]

in all my playthroughs i chose to kill the rachni queen once. at that point...Shep had yet to condemn an entire Species to death. I, as Shep, was inclined to believe the queen when she spoke of the sour sounds or whatever it was.....a possible indoctrination by the Reapers. We have seen it time and time again. In ME2 that Asari on Illium that represents the queen has some nice things to say..so i know i made the right choice.

[Eudaemonium]

I just dislike condemning an entire race to extnction for things their ancestors did, and which they may not even have done voluntarily at that.

Personlly, as far as consequences go, I'd actually like all Paragon and Renegade choices to have positive *and* negative consequences. With the Rachni for example, Shepard has to deal with Rachni husks and some indoctrinated Rachni, but the Queen and others assist her. Or saving the Collector Base means it makes your job difficult at the start but easier in the end (say it indoctrinated Cerberus technicians, meaning you have to fight them, but also gives you valuable tech that can stop the Reapers).

[Dean_the_Young]

DrXenu wrote...

These are completely different circumstances.  You were engaged in a battle for your life against the Thorian, what was Shepard supposed to do?  Walk away and let it's control kill the colonists destroying the entire Feros operation, leaving the problem for someone else to find? 

Were in a battle for your life against the Thorian because YOU attacked IT.

This is about as plausible a defense as a burglar suing the target of his home intrusion for defending his/her property.

No, the THorian wasn't killing the colonists, though Shepard well could. And quarantining a region both (a) is the purpose for preventing others from stumbling across the problem, and ( offers the means to act at will without resorting to genocide.

The Collectors also had to be dealt accordingly.  First off, quarantining an entire race?  The manpower and resources required to undergo such an endeavor would be astronomical, not to mention a waste.

Seriously? One space station (whose ship you could blow up), and one relay to watch and block?

We're not talking about a inter-galactic empire here. We aren't even talking about a planetary empire. We're talking about locking down a single space station.

They were harvesting an entire race and using their liquified remains to build a supperweapon, not to mention another battle for survival.  Also, I must point out that Mordin reveals that the Collectors can barely be considered a sentient race.  No culture, no passion, no resaon to live they were not individual beings, just vegeatative slaves, the final insult to the Prothean's fall.  Killing them was as much an act of defense as simply humane.

You know who else were deligitimized as a 'real' race, and whose destruction was considered as a good thing for everyone inolved?

Jews. And Indians (Native and Oriental.) And the Aboriginees. And pretty much every target for genocide ever.

The Collectors can well be stopped without killing them all. Simply by destroying their space craft and stopping their ability to build more, you can end their threat and superweapon.

Finally, I'm not sure the point you're trying to make with Sovereign.  It was on of its species not genocide. 

Each Reaper is a gestalt of the species it was made from. There is no 'species' of Reapers: each Reaper is an entire species in and of itself.

Even if it was the last, it had to be destroyed.  Destroyed countless numbers of our ships, had no intent of peaceful resolution, and was a threat to the very defense of the universe.  It definitely would not have broken off his attack and asked to go back as much as it would not have kept its word.  Destruction of Sovereign was the only way, I hope you see that.  We're not stupid enough to let Sovereign go off like that.


My Shepard does not like the taste of genocide, and never will, but
these instances were neccesary.  In all of them, it was an act of
defense against a confirmed threat.  You are saying that this Rachni
Queen, independent of the Rachni Wars, was guilty because its species
was manipulate beyond their will.  That you are willing to kill innocent
beings because the asylum you offer may, in a small posiblility, be a
detriment to you.  I don't think this come close to justifying
genocide.  The Queen's words seemed pretty true and forthright and it
would have nothing to gain for lying to us except to lead more of her
species to face a terrible and painful end, again.

And here's where you miss 'the point':

Why is the genocide of Nazara necessary? Because it is evil. Why is it evil? Because the Reapers have continually and historically done sever harm, even when they hide their true intentions. Why should we not trust any hypothetical Reaper's claim of peaceful intent? Because it is evil. Why do we know it's evil? Etc. etc. etc.


Now turn it to what was said about the Rachni.

Why is the genocide of the Rachni unnecessary? Because they are not evil. Why are they not evil? Because despite the continual and historic attempts to do harm, this was not their ttrue will. Why do we know this? Because the Rachni Queen tells us so. Why do we believe the Rachni Queen? Because she is not evil. Why do we know she's not evil? Etc. Etc. Etc.


Your resorting to circular arguments in your own accusations and defenses of justified genocide.

This concludes my rant.

People are rarely at their best while ranting.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 25 avril 2011 - 01:05 .

[nelly21]

I can understand not wanting to commit genocide. None of my Shepards were happy to kill the rachni queen.

But I like to roleplay my Sheps according to their background and personalities that I think up for them. All my Sheps realize very early on that the Reapers are the single, greatest threat to organic life in history. All my Sheps realize that the fight against the Reapers is a fight for survival. They all realize that even ignoring Murphy's Law, the most probable outcome is our defeat and extinction.

In a fight that desperate, how can anyone justify throwing a complete wildcard into an already fubar situation? We don't know whether the rachni are evil or not. We can assume the queen is not evil. But we know that the Reaper attack lasts centuries. With rachni's ability to quickly reproduce, can you truly state, beyond any doubt, that all the hundreds and thousands of rachni that will be born in that time will all be of the queen's mentality? No. Our body of evidence is one century-long war and the claims of one very desperate individual.

I think my Sheperds will be willing to take a few sleepless nights in exchange for removing an extremely dangerous variable from an already disadvantageous playing field.

[close2myheart]

*Didn't read the whole previous pages* But here's my comment anyway..

Honestly at first my Shep was itching to press the 'kill' button, after learning how terrible it was during the Rachni war and my Shep was afraid  that the same thing could happen again should the Rachni lives again...

But then again, this new Queen has nothing to do with the previous war and condemning an entire species to extinction for the sin of their forefathers(or mothers ) just don't.. sit well with me. So I let her go :innocent: (yes, I'm a paragon player :innocent:)

And I'm happy I didn't kill her after hearing about the Rachni's fate, their true nature and the Queen's promise to help Shep later at ME2  That and I was kinda looking forward to face the Council *cough* Turian Councilor *cough* with my Rachni friends, y'know just to scare them a little (But I know that won't be happening,.. oh well)

In any case, should letting the Rachni live turns out to be a BAD decision in ME3,, I can always grab a bug spray . Or mod my save files

[corporal doody]

Hawt Asari working for bug queens dont lie!!

Modifié par corporal doody, 25 avril 2011 - 02:23 .

[Barquiel]

I've never killed her.

I can't condemn someone to death for something they haven't done.

[close2myheart]

Eudaemonium wrote...

I just dislike condemning an entire race to extnction for things their ancestors did, and which they may not even have done voluntarily at that.

Personlly, as far as consequences go, I'd actually like all Paragon and Renegade choices to have positive *and* negative consequences. With the Rachni for example, Shepard has to deal with Rachni husks and some indoctrinated Rachni, but the Queen and others assist her. Or saving the Collector Base means it makes your job difficult at the start but easier in the end (say it indoctrinated Cerberus technicians, meaning you have to fight them, but also gives you valuable tech that can stop the Reapers).

+1 I wish this could be applied in ME3...

[Dean_the_Young]

Barquiel wrote...

I've never killed her.

I can't condemn someone to death for something they haven't done.

The Rachni's genetic memory sort of muddles those waters. It would be like a reincarnated person who remembers the crimes of their past life.

And, of course, the main claims that she isn't behind the Rachni on the peak is, well, from her. There's that angle as well.