251 réponses à ce sujet

[tariq071]

fchopin wrote...

Muzyka: Dragon Age II is selling faster than Dragon Age Origins.

If the game is selling faster than DAO then someone has got their facts wrong.

Well, what do you want him to say? He definitely can't say oposite after all bashing that they did about DA:O, in order to glorify( i will add falsely) DA2.

But all this suden excess of interviews that are trying to negate "word of the mouth" and promotion (plus another one that is upcoming) less then 2 months after the release speak for itself much better then his claims.

No need to even read interview because it's like Act III in DA2 ...narrow and has only one outcome.

Modifié par tariq071, 24 avril 2011 - 10:24 .

[syllogi]

SIGH. The OPs sentiment is so true.

If DA2 had been polished, high quality, and fun, I would not care if it was light years away from DA:O in aspects of gameplay. But it wasn't. It was a cash grab; poorly made, and looked like they put no thought into this product beyond making a buck off the franchise name. Being a sequel doesn't matter when it fails on a fundamental level.

[AngryFrozenWater]

This is how I read the quote in the original post... He is using a bag of tricks. First he makes it appear that DA2 is a really good game by giving it a score of 90/100 (and we all know the reality of that). That allows him to downplay the critique. The critics are people who expected the game to be more like Origins and only some of them expressed disappointment. Wow. That must be a really small number of people, right? He then suggests that this is nonsense because DA2 sells better than Origins. So that small part of the fans are clearly wrong and the sales prove this. BW has nothing to worry about. But fortunately for BW they now attracted new fans to the franchise. Which was not part of the tricks I guess. It is an insult. It means that those whiners are easily replaced by the new fans. He ends with throwing some sleeping sand in the fans' eyes by stating that BW will look at their critique. Of course he just painted that this is really nonsense, considering the success of DA2. LOL.

[Zjarcal]

TeenZombie wrote...

SIGH. The OPs sentiment is so true.

If DA2 had been polished, high quality, and fun, I would not care if it was light years away from DA:O in aspects of gameplay. But it wasn't. It was a cash grab; poorly made, and looked like they put no thought into this product beyond making a buck off the franchise name. Being a sequel doesn't matter when it fails on a fundamental level.

Eh, mileage will always vary when it comes to "fun", no matter how well crafted (or how poorly crafted) a game is.

Modifié par Zjarcal, 24 avril 2011 - 10:22 .

[Elhanan]

Well, no bias here....

eis·e·ge·sis [ahy-si-jee-sis]

–noun, plural -ses  [-seez]

an interpretation, especially of Scripture, that expresses the interpreter's own ideas, bias, or the like, rather than the meaning of the text.

*SPOON*

[_Motoki_]

BobSmith101 wrote...

If you read the DA2 homepage is says "The sequel to..." Not the "Completely unrelated spinoff of.." 

Bioware deserve everything they get from this both as it related to DA and how it related to DA2 being a barely finished buggy mess.

I can't emphasize how much I agree with this. There are some both among Bioware staff and fans who act as if it is so wrong to expect the direct sequel to a game to be similar to the original. Since the whole point of making a sequel, as opposed to a completely new game or spin-off, is to bring back customers of the original in addition to new customers I say they brought it on themselves.

I don't think anyone expected the game to 100% like the original, and indeed I think most would welcome improvements and did welcome some of the changes made in DA2, however when you take an established series in a completely different direction in a direct sequel, don't expect that it will go unnoticed and without some backlash. 

Modifié par _Motoki_, 24 avril 2011 - 10:41 .

[syllogi]

Zjarcal wrote...

TeenZombie wrote...

SIGH. The OPs sentiment is so true.

If DA2 had been polished, high quality, and fun, I would not care if it was light years away from DA:O in aspects of gameplay. But it wasn't. It was a cash grab; poorly made, and looked like they put no thought into this product beyond making a buck off the franchise name. Being a sequel doesn't matter when it fails on a fundamental level.

Eh, mileage will always vary when it comes to "fun", no matter how well crafted (or how poorly crafted) a game is.

True, but for me, it actually doesn't take much to be entertained by a Bioware RPG.  I'm not just hating for the sake of it, I *wanted* to believe this game would be good.  So, I have no quarrel with those who enjoyed DA2.  I just want Bioware to know what my own problems with it were.

Modifié par TeenZombie, 24 avril 2011 - 10:26 .

[Zjarcal]

TeenZombie wrote...
I just want Bioware to know what my own problems with it were.

And you have every right to do that. I'm just saying that the "fun" argument is not really the best one to use here since it's entirely subjective.

For the record, I agree with all the criticisms listed in the OP. They didn't ruin the game for me, but I do agree with them.

[Elhanan]

TeenZombie wrote...

True, but for me, it actually doesn't take much to be entertained by a Bioware RPG.  I'm not just hating for the sake of it, I *wanted* to believe this game would be good.  So, I have no quarrel with those who enjoyed DA2.  I just want Bioware to know what my own problems with it were.

Based on posts, I would say that it was your feelings for the game were the problem; not the game itself.

SIGH. The OPs sentiment is so true.

If DA2 had been polished, high quality, and fun, I would not care if it was light years away from DA:O in aspects of gameplay. But it wasn't. It was a cash grab; poorly made, and looked like they put no thought into this product beyond making a buck off the franchise name. Being a sequel doesn't matter when it fails on a fundamental level.

This is subjective opinion; not fact. While I detest anchovies does not actually make them little salt tablets of death.

[PSUHammer]

_Motoki_ wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

If you read the DA2 homepage is says "The sequel to..." Not the "Completely unrelated spinoff of.." 

Bioware deserve everything they get from this both as it related to DA and how it related to DA2 being a barely finished buggy mess.

I can't emphasize how much I agree with this. There are some both among Bioware staff and fans who act as if it is so wrong to expect the direct sequel to a game to be similar to the original. Since the whole point of making a sequel, as opposed to a completely new game or spin-off, is to bring back customers of the original in addition to new customers I say they brought it on themselves.

I don't think anyone expected the game to 100% like the original, and indeed I think most would welcome improvements and did welcome some of the changes made in DA2, however when you take an established series in a completely different direction in a direct sequel, don't expect that it will go unnoticed and without some backlash. 

This isn't the point of the OP.  I am not arguing that DA2 should or should not have been like DAO.  I am specifically commenting on the idea that all criticisim of the game is rooted in the belief that they SHOULD be the same, gameplay wise, and that the only reason some people are not happy with aspects of the game is because it isn't "Origins 2."

I liked DA2 at it's core.  Some of the glaring issues of the game would be issues if it was DA1 or DA10.  It has nothing to do with me "wishing it was DAO".  Get it? 

Modifié par Hammer6767, 24 avril 2011 - 10:55 .

[Dr. wonderful]

Teddie Sage wrote...

And we all know this is true. This game isn't meant to be Origins and I like that idea.

Which is why I love the game.

I found the Origins aspect in the Original game as Introducing every new concept of the series, from the elves to the history of the Chantry. Why DA2 only gloss over that.

Which means less reading and more fighting.

[syllogi]

Elhanan wrote...

TeenZombie wrote...

True, but for me, it actually doesn't take much to be entertained by a Bioware RPG.  I'm not just hating for the sake of it, I *wanted* to believe this game would be good.  So, I have no quarrel with those who enjoyed DA2.  I just want Bioware to know what my own problems with it were.

Based on posts, I would say that it was your feelings for the game were the problem; not the game itself.

SIGH. The OPs sentiment is so true.

If DA2 had been polished, high quality, and fun, I would not care if it was light years away from DA:O in aspects of gameplay. But it wasn't. It was a cash grab; poorly made, and looked like they put no thought into this product beyond making a buck off the franchise name. Being a sequel doesn't matter when it fails on a fundamental level.

This is subjective opinion; not fact. While I detest anchovies does not actually make them little salt tablets of death.

No offense, but your opinion and mine are going to differ, so I won't attempt to explain myself to you again.  Suffice it to say that others have noticed the giant, glaring problems that I have pointed out, and it's not just emotional attachment to the last game that bothers me.  I realize that you still won't believe me, but take it as you will.  I'm not here to convince other fans that their experience was bad.

[_Motoki_]

Hammer6767 wrote...
This isn't the point of the OP.  I am not arguing that DA2 should or should not have been like DAO.  I am specifically commenting on the idea that all criticisim of the game is rooted in the belief that they SHOULD be the same, gameplay wise, and that the only reason some people are not happy with aspects of the game is because it isn't "Origins 2."

I liked DA2 at it's core.  Some of the glaring issues of the game would be issues if it was DA1 or DA10.  It has nothing to do with me "wishing it was DAO".  Get it? 

There's definitely two major areas of discontent for this game. One is the radical changed direction in terms of style, art, game mechanics, story etc. and the other is the rather rushed and arguably poorly put together nature of the game. (ie re-use of content, drastically reduced playing time, somewhat disconnected story acts, little changes over the time span, poor Nvidia support at launch etc etc).

Both I feel are equally valid criticisms of the game and I believe if it were merely a case of one or the other and not both at the same time people would be a bit more forgiving.

So yes, I get your point. Do I think the only reason people have problems with the game is its dissimilarity to DA:O? Absolutely not. However I feel that expectations of a sequel being similar to the original is one of many valid criticisms made for this game. If Bioware choses to focus solely on that criticism and ignore the others they are blind and it will bite them in ass sooner or later.

I would hope that internally they are fully aware of the game's shortcomings. For PR purposes though I can see how it's easier to spin it that the voices of disconent are merely those who expected more of the same rather than to make a mea culpa, particularly if they are still hoping to squeeze some more sales out of the game.

I do hope that down the road some time they will be more forthcoming with admitting the game's shortcomings. We'll see I suppose.

Modifié par _Motoki_, 24 avril 2011 - 11:12 .

[PSUHammer]

TeenZombie wrote...

No offense, but your opinion and mine are going to differ, so I won't attempt to explain myself to you again.  Suffice it to say that others have noticed the giant, glaring problems that I have pointed out, and it's not just emotional attachment to the last game that bothers me.  I realize that you still won't believe me, but take it as you will.  I'm not here to convince other fans that their experience was bad.

True...I have to say, my experience was quite good, overall.  Enough that I started a second playthrough (most games are one and done for me).  But, that doesn't mean there isn't room for improving the technical design!  DA2 would be great on its own merits if they fixed some of the things outlined in the OP.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Hammer6767 wrote...

TeenZombie wrote...

No offense, but your opinion and mine are going to differ, so I won't attempt to explain myself to you again.  Suffice it to say that others have noticed the giant, glaring problems that I have pointed out, and it's not just emotional attachment to the last game that bothers me.  I realize that you still won't believe me, but take it as you will.  I'm not here to convince other fans that their experience was bad.

True...I have to say, my experience was quite good, overall.  Enough that I started a second playthrough (most games are one and done for me).  But, that doesn't mean there isn't room for improving the technical design!  DA2 would be great on its own merits if they fixed some of the things outlined in the OP.

DA2 is an odd game. I did several playthroughs as well. With all its shortcomings it doesn't feel as a truly horrible game. I think it has to do with that some magical BW ingredients were left in. But DA2 is certainly not the great game that the doctor and his fans are trying to make it look like. There is a lot wrong with this game. An awful lot. No need to repeat those, right?

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 24 avril 2011 - 11:24 .

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

wobble55 wrote...

Here's what all game studios would like to say right now but are afraid to say it:

"Look guys.... complex, highly detailed, hardcore RPGs with great graphics and skilled voice acting are far too expensive to make now, and fewer and fewer customers want to play them.  So, it's over... action games on consoles are the future and that's where we're headed!"

No doubt, I think they'd have far less critcism if they just came out and said "listen, EA won't give us years to make games anymore, so we've decided to just focus on streamlined console games with voice overs" Because to me that's the basic jist of DA2, rushed, console focused, dumbed down. etc.

[GreenSoda]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

wobble55 wrote...

Here's what all game studios would like to say right now but are afraid to say it:

"Look guys.... complex, highly detailed, hardcore RPGs with great graphics and skilled voice acting are far too expensive to make now, and fewer and fewer customers want to play them.  So, it's over... action games on consoles are the future and that's where we're headed!"

No doubt, I think they'd have far less critcism if they just came out and said "listen, EA won't give us years to make games anymore, so we've decided to just focus on streamlined console games with voice overs" Because to me that's the basic jist of DA2, rushed, console focused, dumbed down. etc.

You don't sh*t where you eat. Why would BW criticize their own publisher ? Nahh...imo BW is *very* much getting that certain aspects and shortcomings of DA2 don't sit well with the fanbase at all.

Whether or not they will be in the position to address these issues in their upcoming releases is left to be seen. Personally, the times where I would blindly pre-order BW-RPGs is over -thanks to DA2.

Modifié par GreenSoda, 25 avril 2011 - 12:05 .

[Roxlimn]

Hammer6767:

I think a substantial amount of ire people have with DA2 are exactly because they wanted DA:O: Again, both conceptually and literally. In some cases, people feel like they have objective points, but in actuality, they just think that DA:O's way of doing thing is "right," and that DA2's way is "wrong." Essentially, it's another way of wanting DA:O : Again.

For instance:

Recycled environments, which are a result of either too short a design cycle, limited resources or laziness.

Firstly, high-performing for-profit companies with employees on the payroll are never lazy. I cannot imagine a high-profile Bioware office with employees slacking around for weeks on end doing nothing. Teenagers are lazy. Second-string failed companies may have employees that are lazy.

Secondly, recycled environments are in everything, and Bioware as a company has a rep for doing exactly this. DA:O itself has recycled environments. Heck, Mario recycles the exact same stages at least twice over for added Stars. Is Nintendo lazy? Is this a fundamental game flaw? No.

Spawning enemies...should have been implemented better than ninjas dropping from the sky. This has nothing to do with DAO.

There are many, many, many games where enemies just instantly spawn anywhere, whether or not it's consistent with the game's stated lore. There is a point to this. It's not automatically bad just because DA:O prefers to make enemies stand in place doing nothing. In fact, it better replicates the idea that when you initiate battle, enemies come streaming in from places you don't really know and at times you may not notice (yes, this actually happens in RL).

[Elhanan]

TeenZombie wrote...

No offense, but your opinion and mine are going to differ, so I won't attempt to explain myself to you again.  Suffice it to say that others have noticed the giant, glaring problems that I have pointed out, and it's not just emotional attachment to the last game that bothers me.  I realize that you still won't believe me, but take it as you will.  I'm not here to convince other fans that their experience was bad.

You make it difficult to gain insight to your thoughts, as you continue to smother any facts (large, giant, glaring, or just the smaller ones I recall, etc) under larger quantities of opinions. While you are entilitled to one, I seek informed ones of substance; not ones that come down to artistic differences.

Now back to more conjecture, speculation, hyperbole, and sarcasm from the masses....

[seraphymon]

Shatterkiss wrote...

fchopin wrote...

Muzyka: Dragon Age II is selling faster than Dragon Age Origins.

If the game is selling faster than DAO then someone has got their facts wrong.

Actually that statement is true.  Looking at sales charts, DA2 is definitely outselling DAO in recent weeks.  Of course, DAO has been out for years...

Actually that statement is false. People have posted sales charts and while DA2 outsold DAO i nthe first week primarily due to the preorders and expectations, as soon as word got out, the following 4 or 5 weeaks, DA2 sells have come no where near DAOs.


social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/315/index/6983266

[Big I]

Honestly, with regards to my take on the game the doctors are right. While I was disappointed that DA2 didn't even live up to it's own vision very well (recycled areas, bugs etc), my major disappointment was that vision in the first place. I disliked the elf and darkspawn redesign, cared nothing for Kirkwall, and was infuriated by the plot enforced failures (lose your family, then get railroaded in Act 3). All those things are deliberate design choices made by the DA2 team in order to tell a different type of story from Origins, and I did not like it.

[tmp7704]

If i'm not mistaken that interview was taken freshly after DA2 launch, when it was selling pretty high. The alleged drop happened afterwards... it'd be interesting to have the answer to the same question now.

[Shazzie]

I won't pull out any quotes from this thread, though there are many that hit home for me.

Did I want DA:O2? No....not exactly. I DID expect DA2 to be based more on DA:O, though. After all, it was DA:O's advertised sequel and successor. So, with all the advertisements that that is exactly what it was (re: sequel), of course that's what I expected. And since I enjoyed DA:O a lot, I was excited for that. I was hoping, and expecting, massive tweaks to DA:O, of course. I didn't want the same old thing with a new story. I wanted new gameplay, I wanted advancements, I wanted 'shiny and new' but I wanted it to still feel based on the successes of DA:O. The next evolutionary step in the DA franchise.

It didn't feel that way to me, it felt like as much as possible of what made DA:O what it was - the bad AND the good - was tossed out and ignored. So, yes, I have to deal with the disappointment from that. But my disappointment also stems from the fact that DA2 is a far more Action Adventure style game, with RP as a secondary, and I was expecting the reverse- RPG primary, with some action secondary. Instead I got massive hordes of bag-o-blood ninjas, who beat up the RPG I was expecting and left it (to re-use a phrase I used in another thread last night), beaten battered and abused, hiding in a corner with one eye blackened, three ribs broken, a tooth missing, and its wallet gone.

Modifié par Shazzie, 25 avril 2011 - 12:36 .

[Elhanan]

Or we can choose to look here:

http://www.gamasutra..._March_2011.php

here:

http://www.gamasutra...s_Worldwide.php

here (not really related but worthy):

http://www.gamasutra...Tsunami_Aid.php

or here:

http://www.gamasutra...re_In_March.php

Seems all sales are down (surprise; surprise), yet DA2 and EA seem to be doing well in the midst of it all. I ain't an economist or anything, and use gold cheats on PC, but would have to wonder at other reports that may have... I dunno.... Bias?

Modifié par Elhanan, 25 avril 2011 - 12:46 .

[ransompendragon]

I agree with the OP's original post.

Either we are allowed to compare the new game to DAO or we are not. We can't compare the new game to DAO and say, "The combat is much more action oriented," "fully voiced PC means DA2 doen't have a silent protagonist," "crafting is much easier" etc. and then turn around and say "it's not fair to compare DA2 to the original."

Furthermore, like the OP says there are a lot of major problems that have absolutely nothing to do with the original game.

LookingGlass93 wrote...

Honestly, with regards to my take on the game the doctors are right. While I was disappointed that DA2 didn't even live up to it's own vision very well (recycled areas, bugs etc), my major disappointment was that vision in the first place. I disliked the elf and darkspawn redesign, cared nothing for Kirkwall, and was infuriated by the plot enforced failures (lose your family, then get railroaded in Act 3). All those things are deliberate design choices made by the DA2 team in order to tell a different type of story from Origins, and I did not like it.

Except for the first sentence I also agree with LookingGlass. There is a lot about DA2 I knew I wasn't going to like or care for even before I bought it, from the new art style (back to when it was announced)  to some of the gameplay (as evidenced in the demo). I bought it anyway, I like the DA world and I am a fan of BW and of "sword/sorcery" MUCH more than something like ME.

Out of the gate I hated a lot, got used to it, enjoyed some quests and much of act 2 and then the game --to me as someone playing an RPG, even if it is an action RPG -- fell apart. And -- to me-- the presentation of the story was even more of a disaster than the disaster of the story. It wasn't credible at all. Shockingly bad.

And I am enjoying my third full run through DAO. It is something special and nothing is going to change that.

I pre-ordered The Witcher 2 primarily to support DRM free games. I barely know anything about it. And better/worse it truly is different than DAO/DA2. But it seems to me there are more solo-protagonist RPGs than party based anymore (okay there never were that many maybe).

p.s. what was so bad about the crafting in DAO? I think it much better or felt you could at least have both types? DA2 crafting is just buying stuff anyway?