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[georage]

I almost fell out of my chair when that 'Grey Warden outta nowhere' suggested I let Loghain live after our battle at Landsmeet.

He betrayed the Grey Wardens and that resulted in many deaths. And I am supposed to trust him on another battlefield?

YEESH!

So, I let Allistair kill him, which was a pretty dramatic moment.

Do you always fight Loghain one on one? If you let him live, what happens? Does he really perform well later?

I have not gotten to the next stage (the big battle with darkspawn I assume) so please try to not spoil it. I just wonder who let him live and why? And did he help at the next battle? Or did he betray you again!?

[Rattleface]

If you let him live, he gets pushed into being a Grey Warden.

Of course, Allistar doesn't like that, so... it's either one or the other.



Yes, he helped in the next battle. His battle-shouts are AWESOME!

"Strike me if ye DAHARE!"



Uh... without spoiling it, no, he doesn't betray you again.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Loghain joins your party. You can talk to him, understand his views. And no he will not betray you. On the contrary.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 19 novembre 2009 - 04:19 .

[Joie de Combat]

Taking Riordan's suggestion and making Loghain a Warden means that Alistair leaves in disgust. I can't ever bring myself to trade the guy who's had my back from the beginning for the guy who betrayed the Wardens and abandoned them to die at Ostagar. So I'm not sure exactly how Loghain accounts for himself afterwards, but I gather that he does at least make an honest effort.

[Rattleface]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Loghain joins your party. You can talk to him, understand his views.
And he can kill the Archdemon willingly, thus sacrifice his life. If
you let him to.

I think he said not to spoil it.

[Xaila]

It really hurt me to do since I LOVE Alistair, but I reloaded a save and started playing with Loghain. It's pretty interesting to say the least. He does make an honest effort to redeem himself, and some of the conversations with him are pretty good. My favorites were the "party banter" interactions he has with the mabari, which he evidently has a soft spot for.

Oh, if you've got some good persuade you can also make him do the nasty with Morrigan (since Alistair is gone), complete with cutscene. I just had to record that with fraps, some of his lines are pretty priceless.

EDIT FOR POTENTIAL SPOILER WARNING -






I still haven't beaten the game with him though. Does he say anything if YOU die fighting the archdemon? I'd imagine it might be weird for him. He was given mercy by the one he was originally trying to kill, only to have them spare his life again and take the fall. And if you both live, does he say anything?

Modifié par Xaila, 19 novembre 2009 - 04:26 .

[kormesios]

Interesting twist, Alistair leaving. Is there a persuade option to keep him?



I went back and forth on killing him, originally accepting his surrender. Then agreeing with Alistair. Then saying "I can't, I can't do it"--I would have been OK if he'd been spared, when I made that choice. But Alistair stepped up, and chopped off his head.



He really was a vile man. I'm almost curious how he "justified" killing not only the king, but an entire army of innocent soldiers, by marching away from them. Triggering a civil war. Hunting and killing Grey Wardens to cover his crime.



Totally unpardonable. The only moment of humanity he showed was in his death. Probably for the best I didn't need to listen to his deluded arguments on his own behalf. Does he show any guilt? Admit his crimes?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Xaila wrote...
EDIT FOR POTENTIAL SPOILER WARNING -






I still haven't beaten the game with him though. Does he say anything if YOU die fighting the archdemon? I'd imagine it might be weird for him. He was given mercy by the one he was originally trying to kill, only to have them spare his life again and take the fall. And if you both live, does he say anything?

Spoiler warning.


In my game, I made the deal with Morrigan. At the battle of Denerim, when the companisions say bye, I didn't pick him to go with me, I wanted him to lead the defense of the gate. He thanks you and wishes you luck.
At the end, after the battle. Loghain becomes the senior Grey warden and recruiter in Ferelden. HE talks about his daughter and how I am his new son-in-law, and wishing me luck.
He also says that the Grey WArdens from elsewhere want an explanation as to why the PC isn't dead despite killing the Archdemon. If you tell him about Morrigan, he says that he expected as much. Then he goes on saying that he won't tell the other grey wardens about this.

[KnightofPhoenix]

kormesios wrote...
Does he show any guilt? Admit his crimes?

Yes. He does. Of course he doesn't cry about it because of his pride. But the way he thanks you for sparing him shows the guilt.

[Xaila]

Totally unpardonable. The only moment of humanity he showed was in his death. Probably for the best I didn't need to listen to his deluded arguments on his own behalf. Does he show any guilt? Admit his crimes?

He does show considerable regret/guilt and expresses the desire to atone for it.  He does remain kinda stoic about it and IMO doesn't fully own up to the full weight of his actions.

Honestly he seemed a little bit...fragile/lost after being made a Warden.  Like a man that's already marked for dead.  Sort of weary and lifeworn.  You see a few sparks of his humanity and what he may have been like before the paranoia and madness.  He'll reminisce about his own mabari to your dog, and will speak with fondness about Maric and his daughter as a child.

It was very interesting indeed.

[Joie de Combat]

kormesios wrote...

Interesting twist, Alistair leaving. Is there a persuade option to keep him?

Apparently not. Accepting Loghain as a Warden seems to be Alistair's breaking point; there's no way to make him agree to it.

Which is kind of understandable. Loghain did kill his father figure, wipe out his surrogate family, and almost kill his other father figure. Considering that he thinks of being a Warden as an honor instead of a death sentence, it's not really surprising that he reacts so badly to the idea.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

It's also not surprising since Loghain was an evil slaving murderer who would never have to undergo the Calling, and thus find hardly any punishment in being a Grey Warden other than having to drink icky blood.

[Xaila]

Joie de Combat wrote...

kormesios wrote...

Interesting twist, Alistair leaving. Is there a persuade option to keep him?

No, sadly not.  I *think* you can persuade him to marry Anora/become king still, but he invariably leaves the party if Loghain doesn't die there.

[Xaila]

Spoiler of events just post-Landsmeet -



For whoever's curious...I uploaded the Loghain/Morrigan cutscene. I particularly love the line he gives just before.



I giggled a little.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

It's also not surprising since Loghain was an evil slaving murderer who would never have to undergo the Calling, and thus find hardly any punishment in being a Grey Warden other than having to drink icky blood.

sigh, He is willing to sacrifice his life to kill the Archdemon.

Loghain has to be one of the most unjustly hated characters ever.

[Muzzlepuffs]

Xaila wrote...

Spoiler of events just post-Landsmeet -

For whoever's curious...I uploaded the Loghain/Morrigan cutscene. I particularly love the line he gives just before.

I giggled a little.

Oh god, pass the brain bleach. D:

[Mystranna Kelteel]

Unjustly hated? The slavery alone is enough to hate his guts. But forgive me if I don't take you all that seriously. The last time we discussed his slaving you said it was "politically efficient" and felt it important to note that "nobody cares about elves anyway".



Letting him claim the glory of ending the Blight is way too good for him. Ferelden deserves to know that he went out like the slaving criminal he was, not a great hero.

[KnightofPhoenix]

lol Mystranna, it's like whenever we are in the same thread, we always end up arguing about Loghain. haha

Ok, I think I will be the first to stop derailing the thread.



Last note to op, it's worth trying to save Loghain at least once and have him at your side. It's an interesting experience.

[Craig McDermott]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

Letting him claim the glory of ending the Blight is way too good for him. Ferelden deserves to know that he went out like the slaving criminal he was, not a great hero.

Except that he was a hero.  Sure he had to make a few sacrifices along the way, but he gets the job done.  Nobody cares about a few elves being sold into slavery since they are considered subhuman anyway.

Modifié par Craig McDermott, 19 novembre 2009 - 05:20 .

[Mystranna Kelteel]

A few sacrifices. XD



He "sacrifices" the law of the kingdom and the kingdom's own people to satisfy his personal agenda and fears, and calls everyone who disagrees with him a traitor. He's not a hero.

[Jacks-Up]

Muzzlepuffs wrote...

Xaila wrote...

Spoiler of events just post-Landsmeet -

For whoever's curious...I uploaded the Loghain/Morrigan cutscene. I particularly love the line he gives just before.

I giggled a little.

Oh god, pass the brain bleach. D:

Do they play such gay music in every love seen? I usual just hit the fast forward button

[Sable Rhapsody]

Loghain WAS a hero; he saved Fereldan from Orlesian occupation and basically singlehandedly put the nation back together (since Maric was having him do all the hard work). Still, the best he gets from me in DA:O is former hero fallen to villain. I'm very mixed on whether he should get anything better than a sword to the neck.



MASS EFFECT SPOILERS BELOW TOO (Just warning ya XD)









Loghain was a lot like Saren, though I thought Loghain was better executed--both of them were respected and revered, they both became convinced that they alone knew best for those they were trying to protect and allowed their paranoid craziness to get the better of them. Neither of them were the true threat/villain; they only facilitated the true evil's spread. At least they each get a chance to redeem themselves, though IMO, Saren deserves redemption more than Loghain. Loghain doesn't have any excuse but his personal paranoia and hatred of everything not-Fereldan, whereas Saren's crazy was helped along by Sovereign's indoctrination. The scene where Saren shoots himself to give you a chance made my jaw hit the floor.

[Nhani]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

A few sacrifices. XD

He "sacrifices" the law of the kingdom and the kingdom's own people to satisfy his personal agenda and fears, and calls everyone who disagrees with him a traitor. He's not a hero.

Kain refused the sacrifice!
*cough*

..what? D;

[Mystranna Kelteel]

Poor Ariel. She deserved peace.

[TuringPoint]

Loghain's retreat might have been tactically justified. Perhaps the signal took too long to be lit, and he was conserving forces?



Deciding Wardens were traitors was a stupid idea though.



Loghain gets seriously stubborn at times that don't make sense. In the first book he threatens a witch who he should know could kill him easily, and then this with the darkspawn threat. He loses all capacity to reason out HOW he will address the darkspawn threat, and how big the darkspawn threat is. The only thing keeping him coherent in his logic was Maric, I think. Possibly Rowan as well. For all his practicality, he acts too tough for his own good sometimes.