51 réponses à ce sujet

[Mystranna Kelteel]

He acts tough, but his mind is really far gone. I think that's obvious when you walk into the Landsmeet and the first thing he asks you is how Orlais is going to take the throne. At that point the Blight was covering 75% of Ferelden and I just laughed at him. I saw this irrationality coming since The Stolen Throne, and it was reinforced tenfold in The Calling.



The man is so far out of the realm of being a hero at the Landsmeet. Trying to redeem him makes even less sense to me as a person who has read the books.

[Saurel]

I would lol if Loghain flips out if you have Leliana accompany you....



does he ?

[Archdemon Cthulhu]

I want to reload from a nearly save point and get Loghain just to get this classic piece of dialog I've been told about.



Zevran: Do you remember me?



Loghain: You seem vaguely familiar.



Zevran: You hired me to kill the Grey Wardens.



Loghain: Oh, yes, now I remember.



Zevran: I just wanted to tell you that I failed.



Loghain:...Thank you for informing me

[dannythefool]

Alocormin wrote...

Loghain's retreat might have been tactically justified. Perhaps the signal took too long to be lit, and he was conserving forces?

The problem is, even if it was tactically justified, there are still certain events that take place before Ostagar. Arl Eamon must have been poisoned before, since when you get to Lothering you learn he's already been sick for a while. The human noble start also takes places before Ostagar. He must have been planning this, there is no reason why he would believe he could get away with any of this without being the regent.

Apart from that, I don't think it was tactically justified at all. This was not the entire horde. Even if it was, Loghain thought it wasn't. He should have believed that the army could have won the battle.

[Xaila]

Saurel wrote...

I would lol if Loghain flips out if you have Leliana accompany you....

does he ?

He kinda-sorta does.  He questions her on why she considers herself Ferelden if she's been raised in Orlais, and kinda accuses her of being "elitist" and thinking Ferelden sucks. 

He was also kinda bemused that Maric is seen as a "dashing, romantic" figure in Orlais and says that it defies all logic and sense in kind of an exasperated tone.  It's quite amusing

[KnightofPhoenix]

Loghain was never meant to be a King. He himself knows this, especially after you have him join you. Loghain is a military man at heart. He always knew he wasn't fit to be King. He is perfect as a right hand man. So yes, the Maric Loghain duo was perfect and balanced. But without Maric, who is hardly replaced by the infantile Cailan, Loghain begins to get confused and confusing.

But I am sure that he will prove to be a good right hand man for my PC, who is now King.



All in all, a great character. And yes, he is similar to Saren in some ways. Except Saren wasn't really revered, but rather feared as a specter. Many Turians disliked him before the events of eden prime. Loghain on the otherhand was a hero and without him, Maric wouldn't have been able to do anything.

[UnAffectedFiddle]

I just cant stomach letting him live when the argument is "we need all the Grey Wardens we can get" but you dont actually gain anyone extra. You lose a stalwart companion who is willing to die, over a mass murderer.



He poisoned Eamon before Ostagar.



If you go to the tower gate before the battle a guard mentions Loghains men are inside alone and doing something with the lower chambers (which he claims he never saw them). I think his original plan was simply not having the beacon light up and claiming the Kings tactics failed due to a suprise attack. There would be no argument against him BUT the King puts two Greywardens on the job, hence Loghain is a bit flustered during this scene.



His actions lead to civil war.



The sacking of Denerim is due to his poor military strategy and decisions. What Great General? Massive blunder there.



He is like the Dalish Keeper, so completely obssessed with what his enemies did he fails to see anything else whether its his own clan or kingdom falling apart. He even believes his daughter is brainwashed for christ sake.



I actually expected to find out he was a Ghoul.



Lastly, who'd run into battle with him standing at your back? It just defies reason how your supposed to simply just turn on Alistair unless your simply that evil.

[Taritu]

If you're marrying the Queen, letting her father get killed is a really bad idea, imo. My noble male will definitely tell Alistair to stuff it, I'm not killing my wife's father. Especially not that wife. She's a mean intriguer and I don't want her hating me.

[georage]

Thanks for all the posts guys. I finished the game and was quite impressed!



I rejected Morrigan (sadness) and let Allistair do the deed (sadness). It seems like his character was created just for that one moment. The second-class Grey Warden, in the end, is the biggest hero of them all.



I took Leliana to the final battle, she did not help much. It was me (dwarf tank, Allistair, Wyyne, Leliana) and we almost died several times, but Wyyne kept raising people. Also, she can heal other non-party members (like Eamon).



We sorely missed Morrigan's firepower.



Has anyone accepted Morrigan's deal and seen what happened? I almost did, thinking hell, why not? I guess I should have picked Leliana as a lover, damn it!

[Shadukar]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Loghain WAS a hero; he saved Fereldan from Orlesian occupation and basically singlehandedly put the nation back together (since Maric was having him do all the hard work). Still, the best he gets from me in DA:O is former hero fallen to villain. I'm very mixed on whether he should get anything better than a sword to the neck.

MASS EFFECT SPOILERS BELOW TOO (Just warning ya XD)




Loghain was a lot like Saren, though I thought Loghain was better executed--both of them were respected and revered, they both became convinced that they alone knew best for those they were trying to protect and allowed their paranoid craziness to get the better of them. Neither of them were the true threat/villain; they only facilitated the true evil's spread. At least they each get a chance to redeem themselves, though IMO, Saren deserves redemption more than Loghain. Loghain doesn't have any excuse but his personal paranoia and hatred of everything not-Fereldan, whereas Saren's crazy was helped along by Sovereign's indoctrination. The scene where Saren shoots himself to give you a chance made my jaw hit the floor.

I don't think your playing the mass effect I played... Saren never shot himself and never gave two ***ts about any thing except power .

[ReubenLiew]

You needed to be quite the paragon plus quite a lot of ability to persuade in ME to get Saren to shoot himself. He does it when you reach past the haze in his mind from the indoctrination of the ship.

[Archdemon Cthulhu]

You need to be either entirely paragon or entirely renegade, Then, you can convince him through dialog to kill himself to help thwart Sovereign.

[Tieger]

aye, I always felt bad for Saren.

He starts off as this ruthless, but very loyal and very effective, agent - and essentially one mission turns him evil. he tries to take down Sovereign, and instead gets enslaved by it. Everything from that point on isn't really his doing - he really thought that by helping sovereign, it would prove organics were worthwhile, and so the reapers would let them live, but only because of the mess sovereign had made of his brain.

[Grampy_Bone]

I remember I was thinking sparing Loghain would be the most pragmatic option, but then Alistair set me straight with his lines.



"I will not call this man brother! Being a Grey Warden is an honor, not a punishment!"



I was like, whoa, damn, he's right. Thank you Alistair.



Now execute this mo'fo'

[Dark83]

I've been reading a lot of defenses about Loghain and they all seem to focus on intentions, so let me mention a Chinese story from long ago.

There's this man who, in public, appears to be a great and virtuous man. He deliberately builds up this image to be called a saint (doesn't translate directly). He gives to charity, is polite and treats everyone well, solely for the reputation and prestige. One of the main characters eventually is given the chance to kill him, and refuses. Others are surprised - he is vile and evil and selfish. He responds, "What does it matter if he is a true saint or a false saint? Regardless of his intentions, his actions are that of a saint. He will continue to act like a real saint, and contribute as much as a true saint. For all intents and purposes - he is a saint."

In essense, he has done the right things for all the wrong reasons - but it doesn't matter. He had behaved as a real saint had, there was absolutely no difference in his impact for others. Regardless of his selfish and petty motivations, he is a saint.

Other cultures and religions have this too. "The road to hell is paved with good intentions".

We remember Ghandi as a good man for his actions. His intent is the same as those in the Algerian uprising, but their choice of actions differ. We remember Hitler as a bad man for his actions. It is their choices that determine their character.

You can have the best intentions and claim to be a good guy, but if your every action is evil, are you? What seperates you from the intentionally evil?
You can claim to be evil and that you help people solely to get them to compensate you in some way (connections, money, whatever), but if your every action is good, are you? What seperates you from the selfless good?

Modifié par Dark83, 20 novembre 2009 - 11:49 .

[koshiee]

Loghain is actually a pretty awesome character. I'm kinda bummed I didn't get to interact w/ him more b4 the end. I heard you can give him gifts and get some interesting convos going but i had no more quests left by the time he joined my party.



Loghain >>>>>> Alistair

[thethain]

I think logaihn needed more redeeming qualities given to him in the game. The fact is abandoning the king and the only army who have historically bested the blight to die is foolish. He didn't sacrifice the king for any great strategy, he simply left him to die.



That is treason and regicide, and no amount of previous heroics will grant you favor after purposely killing the king of your country. He knew this so he chose to lie, and murder anyone who knew different. I am sad that I could not find any means of speaking with his lieutenant. (who is a just person, and objects to the retreat, altho eventually follows orders).



If he had abandoned the king to attempt to collapse a Thaig which was releasing the blight, or if he had been enchanted by some demon to believe that the wardens were spies. Or if he had merely been fooled by someone, anyone. But no, he abandons the king to die and never a word is given why other than some notion that since the king is not a military genius he is a poor king (generals exist for a reason)

[_Aine_]

 (plenty of spoilerishness incoming....)


It took me a few playthroughs but i finally kept Loghain alive and he surprised me in many ways. Like a few have said already, I wish i would have had more left to do so I could have spent more time with him in my party.

I decided to not take Morrigans offer with Loghain ( rather i didn't persuade him to do it, though i did ask him to do the ritual) but I didn't force him. I wanted to see what would happen if both he and I fought the archdemon....
...
To my surprise neither of us died. When i talked to him after he basically asked why we were both there and they decided that either Morrigan was wrong or she helped with her magic. But it just seemed so WEIRD that noone died despite not having done the ritual.... I'm trying it again to see if i can get the same to occur again lol It just seems illogical or a bug --- but perhaps it is as it should be...

That said, I redid Loghain to how I imagine him to look ( although he strikes me as having dark curls, but thats not an option...) so its easier for me to take him as a human being who is (usually) tactically smart and powerful with some morally questionable and perhaps even an evil bent than simply an evil fairy-tale-esque caricature...

My Loghain (hopefully this link works):

Modifié par shantisands, 17 janvier 2010 - 05:01 .

[Vicious]

RtO vindicates pretty much all of Loghain's pre-game and Ostagar actions. He probably DID wind up saving the country from the Orlesians, whom Cailan and Arl Eamon were about to hand over to them on a silver platter.



That said, everything else he does is pretty bad, but he can be redeemed, and imho I think that's the deciding factor for everyone who plays. Will you be a 'True Hero' and allow your enemy to redeem himself, or will you be the 'Grey Warden' and take vengeance? Because sparing him is invariably the 'good' choice, even if it costs you Alistair. Good acts aren't always free; sometimes they cost you.





Anyway if you spare him, then sacrifice yourself, Loghain serves the Grey Wardens well in his life, until the calling, and then he descends into the Deep Roads and dies honorably in battle, mourned by his brethren.

[Gilsa]

I spared Loghain when Riordan interrupted me. Loghain was a bastard, but my brain started to turn with all the possibilities. My dwarf noble was being groomed to be a commander from the start of her origins and her people dealt with the darkspawn infestation on a regular basis so she was more focused on defeating the Blight than dealing with personal revenge. Duncan recruited thieves and murderers into the Grey Warden fold. If Duncan was alive at that moment in Landsmeet, would he have killed Loghain or would he have given the same speech that we all got about the Blight being more important than whatever was plaguing our people/racial origins? My PC was thinking that getting a general of Loghain's stature was going to help the Grey Warden banner fly higher and if he survived, then he was to suffer the same fate of the Grey Wardens he killed before him. If the Joining killed him, it was a fitting end.

The Alistair trade-off isn't worth it. It sucked losing such a good soldier like him, it really did. During the dialogue conversations where my PC was trying to play devil's advocate with Alistair, he went straight to demanding that he be king. When it was clear that it was either Alistair or Loghain, the dialogue options I had left was to pick him as king or Anora as queen. I wasn't about to let Alistair rule just to kill someone, but I didn't see how I could just finish the execution (game was not giving me the option unless Alistair was king -- no other way to do it) and still hand the ropes over to Anora. I was already past the point of no-return, even if I had a change of heart.

The one small consolation is that Alistair is not dead. Royally pissed off, but not dead. With this ending, I hope that my PC will be able to see him again in the expansion and possibly be able to recruit Alistair into the Grey Wardens again. The horse has probably left the barn at that point.

Modifié par Gilsa, 17 janvier 2010 - 07:29 .

[Xandurpein]

Gilsa wrote...

I spared Loghain when Riordan interrupted me. Loghain was a bastard, but my brain started to turn with all the possibilities. My dwarf noble was being groomed to be a commander from the start of her origins and her people dealt with the darkspawn infestation on a regular basis so she was more focused on defeating the Blight more than dealing with personal revenge. Duncan recruited thieves and murderers into the Grey Warden fold. If Duncan was alive at that moment in Landsmeet, would he have killed Loghain or would he have given the same speech that we all got about the Blight being more important than whatever was plaguing our people/racial origins? My PC was thinking that getting a general of his stature was going to help the Grey Warden banner fly higher and if he survived, he was to suffer the same fate of the Grey Wardens he killed before him.

The Alistair trade-off isn't worth it. It sucked losing such a good soldier like him. During the dialogue conversations where my PC was trying to play devil's advocate with Alistair, he went straight to demanding that he be king. When it was clear that it was either Alistair or Loghain, the dialogue options I had left was to pick him as king or Anora as queen. I wasn't about to let Alistair rule just to kill someone, but I didn't see how I could just finish the execution and still hand the ropes over to Anora. I was already past the point of no-return, even if I had a change of heart.

The one small consolation is that Alistair is not dead. Pissed off, but not dead. With this ending, I hope that my PC will be able to see him again in the expansion and possibly be able to recruit Alistair into the Grey Wardens again. The horse has probably left the barn at that point.

That is what happened to me too on my first play as human noble, except I was also going to marry Anora, but marriage or not... it's not that Alistair throws a fit about Loghain that made me let him go, it's that he turns it into a "give me the crown or I'll sulk" that makes me let him go. It's just too irresponsible.

[RangerSG]

dannythefool wrote...

Alocormin wrote...

Loghain's retreat might have been tactically justified. Perhaps the signal took too long to be lit, and he was conserving forces?

The problem is, even if it was tactically justified, there are still certain events that take place before Ostagar. Arl Eamon must have been poisoned before, since when you get to Lothering you learn he's already been sick for a while. The human noble start also takes places before Ostagar. He must have been planning this, there is no reason why he would believe he could get away with any of this without being the regent.

Apart from that, I don't think it was tactically justified at all. This was not the entire horde. Even if it was, Loghain thought it wasn't. He should have believed that the army could have won the battle.

Just to note here: Loghain was 'not' planning the Cousland massacre. DG has said Arl Howe did that on his own. Also the Eamon poisoning was not meant to be fatal (doesn't make it less a crime).

Whether or not that was 'all' the horde (and it couldn't be because you see more underground later), we have no idea what the tactical situation was when Loghain orders the retreat. Now that doesn't mean I'm a "Loghain defender," but things are not as easy as 'your side' of the story makes it out to be.

[Vicious]

The Alistair trade-off isn't worth it. It sucked losing such a good soldier like him, it really did. .

Sure it is.



Alistair: "So why did you want to become a Grey Warden?"



Me: "I didn't. I still don.t"



Alistar: "So you were conscripted?"



Alistair disapproves [-10]



What a dick.

[Gilsa]

Funny since Duncan invoked Right of Conscription to get Alistair, too.