282 réponses à ce sujet

[Dragoonlordz]

New title Dragon Age 2:Deja Vu.

[Dragoonlordz]

Haexpane wrote...

You didn't see it, that doesn't mean it wasnt there

http://www.nerfnow.com/comic/image/481

[doloreg]

Origins was an introduction to the world of Thedas. All the major questlines were about meeting all the races, their cultures and their problems, so the world is known by the second game.
It would be silly to make to introductory games, now that we know the setting well.
That's why it's not like origins.

[Ariella]

Reinveil wrote...

Ariella wrote...

As for the explosing bodies, what build did you use? Duel wield or archer? Because between cunning upping your critical damage, and duel wield being a crit specialty, plus IIRC dex upping your crit hit chance, yeah it's going to be duck season on the bad guys.  However, this goes back to BG and critical hits. And in it's own way is a lot better than the canned animations one got in DAO, because the slow mo slowed everything, and made it that much more of a pain to get the fight done. especially with the darn ogres.

Dual wield, so obviously yeah, I was going to be seeing it more than usual, but it also gave me time to notice that it was the exact same explosion of limbs and bald heads each and every time.  Ideally (at least for me), the next game will find a middle ground between the slower-paced combat of Origins (bring back the kill animations!) and the flashier, more visceral combat of the sequel (perhaps a little less exaggerated).

That sounds like something I pay to play, and I expect we're going to get closer to that as the DA franchise matures. Bioware's still figuring out the balance, They'll learn from this and come back stronger. They always have in the past, and I still trust them.

[Gotholhorakh]

Elhanan wrote...

Everyone is entitled to an informed opinion; even those that disagree with yours.

Can I just say that I feel this is an unfair tone to end your response with, I don't think I've ever suggested that other people aren't entitled to disagree with me or anyone else - and in fact I was responding to someone telling me I don't have "legitimate gripes".

I rather feel that one has to try very hard to imagine DA2 isn't slipshod, to be honest. If other people can manage to persuade themselves that vast swathes of the game world being the same place, half-assed animations, inventory, loot etc. are not, then bully for them. Great, they will certainly get more value for their money than I will. I would also like a word with them as I have a jar of Caesar's last breath I am selling which they might be interested in, heh. No seriously though, good for them.

It's when someone tries to draw that equivalence or even say DA:O had more issues that might be described as "unfinished" or "slipshod", than DA2 that I think they're being disingenuous to try and support a separate point.

I take issue with that mainly because I sincerely doubt anyone could keep a straight face while making that argument in real life.

[spacepopeadventures]

Sanarion wrote...



Personally, what annoyed me the most about the game was
unrealized potential. DAO was an amazing starter game, pulling back the curtain
to a world both familiar, but also new. It had the feeling, with it's broad,
epic (which I use in the sense of both length, and scope) story, and with it's
more classic-hero main character, of a legend in making, in-universe.

 

Then came Dragon Age 2.

 

What a hate the most about Dragon Age 2 is the unrealized
potential. It could have been so very, very good. A more personal, more in depth
story would have honestly been wonderful. I liked the "Folk Hero" and
personal journey very much, and the idea of focusing on one city, although a
little strange, wasn't off-putting.

 

What went wrong?

 

In my opinion, time. Time. Time. It could have been
wonderful, but for the sake of money, they rushed it, and ended up making a
deeply flawed product.

 

For a game to tell a personal story, for it have impact for
what they seemed like they were aiming for, it needs to inspire emotion. The
primary emotion I felt playing the game was frustration. In writing classes,
the one thing beat into us, over and over again is the mantra "show, don't
tell." You want to scrap the Origins for a voiced protagonist that feels
more like a character than a vessel for a player? Fine. However, that should
give you the chance to go in depth into the character, and truly get a chance
to make them a character in their own right.

 

What I wanted was to see what Hawke's life was like before
the Blight. When we start the game, after the False-action prologue, which I'll
admit was a fun way to grab the gamer, we should have been able to play through
some of Hawke's life. Just because the Hero losing their home is a well
established cliche doesn't mean it's lost meaning. We get glimpses of how
Hawke's family react, and even, to an extent, Hawke's response to losing the
Home, but we don't get anything other than a few flickers of conversation with
Avaline about it.

 

To me, this was the first sin. Would it have been too much
to see Hawke's life before the Blight? We could have had an intro in Lothering,
maybe play a few scenes from his childhood. 
Had I been a writer, I would have written a few scenes, maybe of Hawke
interacting with his father. Don’t just tell us. Show us him learning the
sword, or magic. Show his interaction with his brother and sister, before it
all fell apart, and what his mother was like before they got driven out from
their home. When we meet Leandra, she’s already broken up, having lost both her
husband and her home. This was a horribly wasted opportunity. I frankly didn’t
really care about her. She was just another face. You want us to care? Show her
happy, with her children before the blight, then show her lose everything, her
home, one of her children. Make it hurt. 


Some scenes of MageHawke hiding from the Templars, maybe a
talk with his/her father, lessons on how to avoid them would have been good as
well. It would have made the conflict of the game seem a lot more personal. You
could have a scene of NotmageHawke with their father as well, maybe having him
ask them, tell them to look after Betheny, protect her from the Templars. That
would have brought it to a personal level, which, when you’re making a game
that is supposed to be human and personal, is the whole point.

That’s just a start. There was so much wasted potential. You
don’t feel the desperation Hawke should have felt, surviving on the streets, on
the edge of poverty, one step ahead of the Templars. If you’re going to focus a
game around a single city, like Kirkwall, the city itself needs to be a
character. It should change with time, having people going about their lives,
maybe even have holidays, events. It shouldn’t just be a series of disconnected
combat areas.  We should feel Hawke’s
pain, or even lack thereof, as his family and friends are stripped away, even
as he becomes more and more powerful.

On to act two. This may be asking for too much, but I have
high expectations for Bioware. They’re Bioware. They’re the kings of the CRPG.
You’re rich, you’re famous. Kirkwall should start to feel like a home. Let us get
attached to the city. Maybe let us meet Hawke’s neighbors, kick back with some
drinks with your companions with at the mansion. Instead, they give us a
cutscene. They could have had us talking with Leandra, showing her pride and
happiness at having the estate back. They did this to an extent, but they could
have done so much more.

 Show. Don’t tell.
Show.

This would have made the Quinari invasion more gripping,
more of a threat. Now, once again, Hawke’s on the verge of losing his home for
the second time.

I’m not going to even start on the final act. I honestly can’t
say anything would help, other than a complete re-write. Bioware has always
been about choice. We didn’t get choice. We got rail-roading. No. Even worse.
We got the illusion of choice. Either way, it didn’t matter. You could have
flipped a coin, for all the good it would do. Templar or Mage, either way, it
ends the exact same. The same people die. Hell, both antagonists end up going
insane, the oldest one in the book. There is precisely one major character you
can decide the fate of. Don’t give us that. You can do better than this,
Bioware. We know you can.

It’s also unclear what you were trying for. Was it a story
about choice, or about the lack thereof? Personally, I think if you didn’t want
us to have choices, I wouldn’t have complained, had it been done *right*. A
story about a Hawke who, despite his wealth, combat skill, and influence, is
little more than pawn being forced around by forces greater than himself would
have worked fine. However, in this case, the pressure was a Meta-gamy, external
pressure. It was immersion-breaking pressure, when it could have deepened immersion.

I’ll give Bioware this. The dialogue was witty, and in my
opinion, all of the characters were essentially well written, with only a few
glaring exceptions. (Looking at you, Orsino.) The Idol was a cop-out, a glaring
boil in the nose of a truly thought-provoking conflict. However…you’re Bioware.
You don’t get credit for that anymore.

It all boils down to time. It was an amazing concept that
failed do to lack of time. DAO gave us a brilliant window into a new world,
with a mythic plot, and Dragon Age II could have been surpassed it, giving us
an intense, personal story. But it didn’t. There wasn’t enough time.

I usually hate it when people quote a whooole post instead of just the bit they're replying to, but I agree so very much with all this. (Well, okay, I thought the idol was fine, and Orsino wasn't so much badly written as not-written-enough. Minor quibbles, though.) I want to print it on a million flyers and stick them on every surface in Bioware HQ.

The truly sad thing about this is that the bits DA2 got wrong--the little things that would make the narrative convincing and real--were often relatively easy bits to get right. Some of it is stuff even the Fable series (!) managed, for crying out loud.

Modifié par spacepopeadventures, 27 avril 2011 - 08:36 .

[spacepopeadventures]

doloreg wrote...

Origins was an introduction to the world of Thedas. All the major questlines were about meeting all the races, their cultures and their problems, so the world is known by the second game.
It would be silly to make to introductory games, now that we know the setting well.
That's why it's not like origins.

This would be a fair point if not for the many, many changes which were plainly aimed at drawing in gamers who didn't play DA:O. Bioware's taken pains to make DA2 seem accessible and noob-friendly to people who don't usually like RPGs; for them, DA2 will indeed be their first DA game, will it not? There should be more lore (and I don't mean codex entries!) in DA2, not less.

[doloreg]

spacepopeadventures wrote...

doloreg wrote...

Origins was an introduction to the world of Thedas. All the major questlines were about meeting all the races, their cultures and their problems, so the world is known by the second game.
It would be silly to make to introductory games, now that we know the setting well.
That's why it's not like origins.

This would be a fair point if not for the many, many changes which were plainly aimed at drawing in gamers who didn't play DA:O. Bioware's taken pains to make DA2 seem accessible and noob-friendly to people who don't usually like RPGs; for them, DA2 will indeed be their first DA game, will it not? There should be more lore (and I don't mean codex entries!) in DA2, not less.

They've dumbed down combat and level design, not only to attract others, but because of the complaints regarding DA:O, so in my opinion, it seemed like a win-win deal in their heads, as it fixes "problems" and attracts others.
The idea is ok, but the execution is not.

Plus my previous arguments stands for DA:O's design/story decisions, not da2's.

Modifié par doloreg, 27 avril 2011 - 01:39 .

[Karlojey]

The problem why people are disappointed is that the developers said that Dragon Age 2 will still feel like Dragon Age: Origins but unfortunately it doesn't. To cite my personal examples:

1. The story was okay but I just don't feel any connections to the companions. In Origins, you get to speak with your companions and learn more about them as you travel along. In DA2, you only get to speak with your companions if they have a quest for you to do.

2. The family aspect that Bioware was selling didn't have any volume in it. Why is that? Well, something happens to one of your siblings and mother and you don't get to use the surviving sibling aas much as you wanted to because of some plot requirement. As player, I don't feel any connection to the game because I didn't really get a chance to know them for very long. In particular, when something happens to Hawke's mom, I didn't really care because we barely have any dialogue with her and if ever we do, all we talk about is her regret over the dead sibling.

3. Re-used environments - 'nuff said.

EDIT: Removed spoilers.

The game did some things right like the sustainables (rock armor in particular) but other than that, it really feels lacking.

Modifié par Karlojey, 27 avril 2011 - 01:58 .

[SilentK]

doloreg wrote...

They've dumbed down combat and level design, not only to attract others, but because of the complaints regarding DA:O, so in my opinion, it seemed like a win-win deal in their heads, as it fixes "problems" and attracts others.
The idea is ok, but the execution is not.

Plus my previous arguments stands for DA:O's design/story decisions, not da2's.

Well, that dumbed down combat really works for me         I can more fun in combat now than I had in DA:O. I usually play in normal but I have recently tried to move it up to hard sometimes    =)   I have to be a bit better on the tactics in order to make it work I think. Oh well... Think I could do with a little less of exploding bodies but I like the talent-trees better this way. That it isn't just linear.

Modifié par SilentK, 27 avril 2011 - 02:11 .

[Elhanan]

Gotholhorakh wrote...

Can I just say that I feel this is an unfair tone to end your response with, I don't think I've ever suggested that other people aren't entitled to disagree with me or anyone else - and in fact I was responding to someone telling me I don't have "legitimate gripes".

Certainly, and I may have been overly critical of someone that was 'dumbfounded' of another with a varied POV. If that is the case, I apologize.

I rather feel that one has to try very hard to imagine DA2 isn't slipshod, to be honest. If other people can manage to persuade themselves that vast swathes of the game world being the same place, half-assed animations, inventory, loot etc. are not, then bully for them. Great, they will certainly get more value for their money than I will. I would also like a word with them as I have a jar of Caesar's last breath I am selling which they might be interested in, heh. No seriously though, good for them.

It's when someone tries to draw that equivalence or even say DA:O had more issues that might be described as "unfinished" or "slipshod", than DA2 that I think they're being disingenuous to try and support a separate point.

I take issue with that mainly because I sincerely doubt anyone could keep a straight face while making that argument in real life.

I do not mind seeing the same basements, and only one of the caves gives me pauise. I would like more variety in the mansion estates, and am not really fond of one of the warehouse layouts either, as it requires mutiple sweeps occasionally. But slipshod? Sorry; not seeing it.

And all the rest is your subjective opinion; not mine or some others. Bully for us! And I already have access to the imperial exhale; filtered in the shrubberies of Italy.

Now I was not able to experience the forums of the first few months of DAO, so I do not have direct knowledge of the comparative chaos over issues seen then and now. I just dislike the chaos read now. And I choose to to oppose it; smiling or not in my personal quest to remain away from much of this thing called RL.

[SilentK]

It would have been much easier for me if the mini-maps had been edited so that they showed the actual cave that you are in. Maybe me and my Hawkes just have a very bad sense of direction but if I look at the mini-map and see two routes where I can walk and then one of them is blocked, it leaves me running around a bit. I forget if I had looked for loot in that blocked tunnel again and again. So I am not totally against all forms of reusing caves, most of them are really nice to look at and I so much like having a bit of green in them. Thank you for the ferns! But I would have been so much happier if the mini-maps had been fixed.

[Simiancustard]

What really irks me, (and barely) beyond the ninja spawns or the enemies that materialise out of roofs, or the rampant copy and pasting of caves, interiors etc. or how cheaply-made DA2 feels, is how utterly DEAD Kirkwall felt.

I'm currently playing Two Worlds 2. Granted, the first one was notoriously silly with its ham dialogue, and the second one also received mixed reviews, but when you enter a village or even a city, it's packed with people. There are folks walking around, beggars begging, shopkeepers and even guardsmen patrolling. It's alive, and if you run into them or push them out of the way, they curse at you and your bandit level rises slightly. If you do it enough times, the guards give you a talking to. I'm not saying Two Worlds 2 is a brilliant RPG, on the contrary it has its faults, but comparing it to DA2 makes for a sad realisation.

I sincerely hope that Bioware returns to making exemplary RPGs, and if they are going to make Action Adventure games than I hope they be honest about it, and call their games such.

Modifié par Simiancustard, 27 avril 2011 - 02:33 .

[Ariella]

Simiancustard wrote...

What really irks me, (and barely) beyond the ninja spawns or the enemies that materialise out of roofs, or the rampant copy and pasting of caves, interiors etc. or how cheaply-made DA2 feels, is how utterly DEAD Kirkwall felt.

 

I never got the vibe that Kirkwall was dead, just, creepy. For the most part two kinds of people live in Kirkwall, those who can't leave, and those who have power and don't want to leave it. The place is more corrupt that a group of blood mages, and while you can kill a blood mage, Kirkwall's corruption is soaked into the stone of the place.

[spacepopeadventures]

Ariella wrote...

I never got the vibe that Kirkwall was dead, just, creepy. For the most part two kinds of people live in Kirkwall, those who can't leave, and those who have power and don't want to leave it. The place is more corrupt that a group of blood mages, and while you can kill a blood mage, Kirkwall's corruption is soaked into the stone of the place.

The thing is, the city as a whole just feels so lifeless. Run around Denerim, Orzammar or even Lothering in DA:O for half an hour and you'll see the difference. They felt more lived in, somehow.

[Ariella]

spacepopeadventures wrote...

Ariella wrote...

I never got the vibe that Kirkwall was dead, just, creepy. For the most part two kinds of people live in Kirkwall, those who can't leave, and those who have power and don't want to leave it. The place is more corrupt that a group of blood mages, and while you can kill a blood mage, Kirkwall's corruption is soaked into the stone of the place.

The thing is, the city as a whole just feels so lifeless. Run around Denerim, Orzammar or even Lothering in DA:O for half an hour and you'll see the difference. They felt more lived in, somehow.

I never found that to be the case, and I've run around all three of those places, plus Redcliff on more than one occasion, with much delight I might add. However, the only time I ever got the sense of crowd was in the Proving, other than that none of the cities in Fereldan's geographic location seemed more or less alive than Kirkwall.

I got difference senses from the different towns

Loathering being a place in its last days.
Orzammar is so mired in tradition it hasn't realize the glory days are long past
Redcliff: a village facing a siege that it was nevcer prepared for
Denerim: A nice whiff of corruption, and a sense of a city divided.
Kirkwall: the Hellmouth of DA.

I think the only city I ever felt truly was lifeless even though it had npc actors scattered all over was Amaranthine.

[Sanarion]

To me, the cities in DAO felt more organic. However, looking back, I don't think it's because of anything in particular that they did in DAO than in Dragon Age 2. It's more that fact that most of the game takes place in the city of Kirkwall. The world of Ferelden, to me, felt like a character in it's own right. Kirkwall had flashes of that, but as I said in my earlier post, lacked a certain..something. It was too static. If you're going to set a game in a fixed location over a span on years, I think it's critically important to make that location feel alive.

[spacepopeadventures]

@Ariella: You're probably right. Maybe it's just the huge amount of time we spend in Kirkwall; if I'd spent that long in Denerim, I'd likely have felt it was dead after a while, too. So I suppose it isn't that the DA:O locations were better, just that a city we're going to spend so much time in has to be much, much better than that.

@Sanarion: True! That one dude still waiting to see the Viscount years after his death is only the tip of the iceberg.

[Lumikki]

I disagree with OP. When I see number "2".

It means to me that it's second version, as new game set around in same "game universe or/and person". It doesn't mean that games story or design will follow same formula that first game. Example If I see Max Payne 2, I would assume it's about Max Payne and/or other ways set in same game world, but how the game is build as design, it doesn't mean to me that "2" has follow same design as "1". Mostly this is because technology around game development change every year. Usually it means better graphics and sound stuff, but can also be about gameplay or design it self has changed. Does game design has to change between 1 and 2? No, but it can. People should not assume so much and then complain when they did not get what they assumed.

Modifié par Lumikki, 28 avril 2011 - 05:36 .

[Ariella]

spacepopeadventures wrote...

@Ariella: You're probably right. Maybe it's just the huge amount of time we spend in Kirkwall; if I'd spent that long in Denerim, I'd likely have felt it was dead after a while, too. So I suppose it isn't that the DA:O locations were better, just that a city we're going to spend so much time in has to be much, much better than that.

I'll only answer what's pointed my way, but that's probably it. I also spent a lot of time reading the area codicies for Kirkwall and that just re-enforced my feeling of the place being hell on Thedas. I'm not sure if it's something the Tevinter left behind or it was always that way, but Kirkwall actual seems like it's sick.

[Ariella]

Gotholhorakh wrote...

Elhanan wrote...

Everyone is entitled to an informed opinion; even those that disagree with yours.

Can I just say that I feel this is an unfair tone to end your response with, I don't think I've ever suggested that other people aren't entitled to disagree with me or anyone else - and in fact I was responding to someone telling me I don't have "legitimate gripes".

Then maybe one should not belittle a game breaking bug that keeps player from experiencing part of the game, and forces them to reload, while complaining about not liking the exploding bodies.

The legitmate, as in a factual, gripe is the repeated maps. A legitmate gripe is the bug that caused the Isabella problem. Those are facts to prove your accusation of the game being slipshod. And if you're used those, I may have been willing to conceed a possibility, but most of your accusations are subjective, and don't prove that the game was in any way slip shod, just that you didn't like it. Your right, but it doesn't make for a legimate complaint that the game was slipshod in production.

[Gotholhorakh]

Ariella wrote...

Gotholhorakh wrote...

Elhanan wrote...

Everyone is entitled to an informed opinion; even those that disagree with yours.

Can I just say that I feel this is an unfair tone to end your response with, I don't think I've ever suggested that other people aren't entitled to disagree with me or anyone else - and in fact I was responding to someone telling me I don't have "legitimate gripes".

Then maybe one should not belittle a game breaking bug that keeps player from experiencing part of the game, and forces them to reload, while complaining about not liking the exploding bodies.


The legitmate, as in a factual, gripe is the repeated maps. A legitmate gripe is the bug that caused the Isabella problem. Those are facts to prove your accusation of the game being
slipshod. And if you're used those, I may have been willing to conceed a
possibility,

Thanks for your definition of what is a "legitimate" gripe for someone else to have. Most magnanimous of you.

With respect, it's obviously meaningless to "define" this for other people, your opinion is no more definitive than mine or anyone else's.

 but most of your accusations are subjective,

and what is your opinion, objective fact?

and don't prove that the game was in any way slip shod, just that you didn't like it. Your right, but it doesn't make for a legimate complaint that the game was slipshod in production.

You seem to be under the impression that you've successfully argued that DA2 isn''t slipshod, slapdash and half finished, or that viewing it as such is some outlandish fantasy, or that there's some kind of equivalence between it and DA:O for unimplemented stuff.

You haven't, you know.

If you want to do that, you're going to have to do a lot more than try and criticise my opinion for being subjective - the most blatant straw man argument ever, because everybody's opinion is subjective and I never said otherwise.

I'd be interested to see you bring a persuasive argument yourself as to why the vast numbers of people expressing the sentiment that this game is unfinished or a let down are wrong, rather than trying to argue with a position I haven't taken, and I think that you probably can't.

You may consider that a challenge if you like, I would be genuinely interested.

Modifié par Gotholhorakh, 28 avril 2011 - 10:43 .

[Riloux]

Origins was a fantastic, old school style RPG with complex characters, varied environments, an excellent story, and combat reminiscent of Baldur's Gate. Expecting more of this in a sequel is completely fair and logical.

Instead, what they decide to deliver is a watered-down JRPG, action/hack and slash game with a confusing story, unmemorable characters, recycled, dull environments, and repetitive combat and they're somehow surprised that their fanbase feels betrayed and angry? Let's look up arrogance in the dictionary. What a lovely photo of Gaider and Laidlaw.

We really have no one to blame but the lovely folks at EA and they couldn't care less.

[EDI8Joker]

spacepopeadventures wrote...

The truly sad thing about this is that the bits DA2 got wrong--the little things that would make the narrative convincing and real--were often relatively easy bits to get right.

I could not agree more with this statement.  The underdeveloped plot, repeated environments, significant bugs, stagnant/unevolving Kirkwall, the relatively unchanged look of your party... these are small things (except perhaps the plot enhancements) that could have been addressed with more development time and testing, and not a lot more mind you.  These aspects of DA2 really impacted my 'immersion' and overall gameplay experience negatively.  If they had been addressed, it would have been much easier to look past other design decisions that leave me disappointed, or to laud features of the game I thought were done very well.

DA2 really does have a “rushed feel” where my $60 was more important to Bioware/EA than releasing a higher quality product.  I don’t feel like a valued customer for purchasing their game.  This is a shame since I've been very impressed by Bioware's efforts in the past and consider myself a fan and admirer of their company.

What a frustrating experience DA2 has been.  Sigh.

And I just have to say - Sanarion's post about story improvements is FANTASTIC.

[XFemShepX]

Mad-Max90 wrote...

InB4 the defenders rush in and call you a troll because of your opinions, which I agree with

lol

I agree, too, not that it means anything.