282 réponses à ce sujet

[SilentK]

Hmm... no-one else here that liked the rivalry/friendship-system? It's actually one of the things that I like the most with the game? I could have seen this in use in Origins as well and it would certainly have made my life easier. I often had to leave Morrigan in camp because she disapproved of my warden so often. Then I could just have rivaled her and I think a rival-morrigan would have been a lot of fun. Everyone doesn't have to love the game, but you don't even like that part?

[elearon1]

Okay, but the thing is, if you read any interviews, or *anything* about the game before it was released, they were not shy in informing people this was not going to be DA:Origins 2 ... in fact, they were very vocal about breaking people of that expectation. Yet, I still hear people complaining "what else would it be?" You can't complain the company didn't give you what you expected, after they told you they weren't going to.

As for replayability; aside from the Origins stories themselves, I never managed to replay DA:O - it always felt exactly the same whenever I tried. Meanwhile, I've played DA2 twice all the way through and have two other characters in the 3rd act and still going.

I'm not bashing Origins here ... I really enjoyed it the first time through, but it was SO linear that I simply could not bring myself to slog through it more than once. (and I tried, I did!) Sure, DA2 is also linear, but you can change your experience significantly by playing a different personality type - this never felt like the case in the first game. (it could be that most of the quests were so long in Origins that the very few alternative decisions you could make were lost amidst a mountain of repeated story ... the meat of most quests in 2 is shorter, so your different choices are more apparent)

[elearon1]

SilentK wrote...

Hmm... no-one else here that liked the rivalry/friendship-system?

No, I think most people just forgot to mention it because it is such a well implimented part of the companion system it doesn't leap out and say "here I am, being different!"

I thought the rivalry/friendship system was a far superior approach to what you usually see in games.  Like Gaider said in one thread, 'the friendship/enemy system in Origins and games like it give you no encouragement to do anything but pander to companions so they'll give you bonuses and, because of that, a lot of relationship potential is simply never experienced' (paraphrased).  In DA2 you feel encouraged to engage in rivalries and do not feel nearly as "required" to pander to your party.  I think they could have probably said a little more about that system in the loading screnes, to make it clear to people rivalry was a desirable outcome as well, so as to prevent people from missing this detail and playing it the way they were used to with other games. (if there was much said about this in the loading screnes I apparently missed it)  While many people seem to have got it - probably because they read interviews discussing the companion system ahead of time - I have seen a handful of people who did not know this and, susequently, missed out on the deeper rp gameplay it provided. 

[Sabriana]

SilentK wrote...

Hmm... no-one else here that liked the rivalry/friendship-system? It's actually one of the things that I like the most with the game? I could have seen this in use in Origins as well and it would certainly have made my life easier. I often had to leave Morrigan in camp because she disapproved of my warden so often. Then I could just have rivaled her and I think a rival-morrigan would have been a lot of fun. Everyone doesn't have to love the game, but you don't even like that part?

To be honest, no, I don't like the friend/rival system any more than the approve/disapprove but spam gifts and presto system.

If I equal rival with "friends, respectfully disagree, but still trust ya" then I have to say it doesn't really work for me. Some of the "rival" options are downright nasty, disrespectful, and hurtful. Being treated like an utter moron, having my convictions kicked to the curb and spat on,  would never inspire me respect a person, least of all still even like that person enough to allow a romance. On the contrary, I would take pains to not meet that person at all. In the "see ya, don't call me, I'll call you" fashion.

I know they tried to improve, but I guess it's very hard to make it right. 3 options might work better, but I have no clue how that could even be implemented.

Friend: I agree, we are on the same page
Friend (rival system): I don't agree, but I respect your opinion and trust your judgement
Enemy(disapproval): I don't agree, I resent your treatment, keep it up, and I'm outta here

[SilentK]

Hmmm.... for me this works better than approve/disapprove. Haven't gotten the feeling of being treated like an utter moron, not at all. But then that's how I feel. Sure that Fenris doesn't really see eye to eye with my mages but because of that, that is one of the things we argue about. And it was the base for a awesome intense relationship if you choose to rivalmance him. My chars are usually always goody-goody so I was surprised at how much I have enjoyed the rivalmances with the different LI:s. Turned it was more fun to have some *grrr* in them than I thought. Otherwise it was always the same way with Alistair and Leliana. It was sweet and ohh so wonderful. But didn't expect to like the * grr I love you but you make me soo mad right now*- part so much. But then again, that's just me and how I feelt.

I guess that I feel that was an improvement that not agreeing with an companion actually led somewhere. You got to see a new side and new conversations. That it wasn't just either we are the best friends or we are nothing. Hmm...

edit: added last bit

Modifié par SilentK, 25 avril 2011 - 09:24 .

[Sabriana]

Oh, there is nothing fundamentally wrong with the "I respect you, but I don't agree with you to the point of annoying me at times" aspect. It's much better than "I disapprove, but gimme a slobbered on cake and we're good" approach.

But there were responses that were downright nasty, especially with certain companions. It's hard to come up with something that would work all the time. That's why a 3 way system might be better. But being an utter ignoramus when it comes to scripting and programming, I have no idea how - or even if, it could be implemented.

It's tricksy

[SilentK]

Hmm.. yeah... one way for friendship, one way for we don't agree but I still respect you and then one way for down right hate. That could be really interesting =) and I'm right there with you on not having the faintest idea how to implement it =)

[ozonemania]

In defense of Bioware, I'll put this to you...

Bioware needs to aim for new player sales, not to people already 'loyal' to the franchise. The only way they can grow their fan base is by reaching the new customer. That means a whole lot of things, but namely it has to be accessible, something you can jump into and get into the thick of things in less than an hour or two. It also has to take advantage of current technologies and trends in gaming design to be seen as relevant.

New customers are paramount -- I'm not saying that existing fans are not important -- on the contrary. But for growth, as a strategy they would need to please existing customers enough to get a seal of approval, but really be aiming for new customers.

With the ever accelerating lead times and time-pressure on new game development and releases, there is a limit on how much resources they can put into a game for release in balance with a game's shelf life. Of course we all say we don't mind if BW takes longer to put out a better product, but why spend 3 to 4 years developing a game that has a shelf life of 6 months, when a 1 to 2 year time frame yields the same shelf life? This is part of the reason why I see the DLC model as the most viable method of delivery of new content.

Most of you probably don't realize that when DAO came out, there were just as many gripes about that release as this one. Many new players failed to get hooked and didn't become a 'fan'. Two years later, DAO and expansions/mods have made the game much more than what it was at the beginning. You are viewing DA2 through a lens of long-term play and exposure to DAO. Most players don't, and I think evaluating DA2 on it's own, outside of that scrutiny, the game holds it own very well.

That you are here, 2 years later, still talking about DAO means you are among a very small minority of all people. I am quite sure that BW looked at all the barriers that prevented ppl from becoming a loyal DAO fan, and DA2 certainly addressed many if not all of them.

I think it's also fair to say that as fans, we wouldn't be complaining if we didnt' care. The overwhelming majority of people here seem to have good intentions, although there are some that take pleasure in being a troll.

Anyway, I say this as a balance... I am not a BW employee or anything but I can appreciate the challenges that this game has in relation to its fan base.

[Sabriana]

@ SilentK

Yeah! Stupid software limitations. Why can't we just imagine it and make it so

@ ozonemania

I disagree with you on quite a few points, but I hope you know that you opened yourself up to possible annoyance/anger/outrage with your posting. Starting with, but not limited to: "You probably don't realize..." and going downhill from there. I wish you luck.

[SilentK]

elearon1 wrote...

No, I think most people just forgot to mention it because it is such a well implimented part of the companion system it doesn't leap out and say "here I am, being different!"

I thought the rivalry/friendship system was a far superior approach to what you usually see in games.  Like Gaider said in one thread, 'the friendship/enemy system in Origins and games like it give you no encouragement to do anything but pander to companions so they'll give you bonuses and, because of that, a lot of relationship potential is simply never experienced' (paraphrased).  In DA2 you feel encouraged to engage in rivalries and do not feel nearly as "required" to pander to your party.  I think they could have probably said a little more about that system in the loading screnes, to make it clear to people rivalry was a desirable outcome as well, so as to prevent people from missing this detail and playing it the way they were used to with other games. (if there was much said about this in the loading screnes I apparently missed it)  While many people seem to have got it - probably because they read interviews discussing the companion system ahead of time - I have seen a handful of people who did not know this and, susequently, missed out on the deeper rp gameplay it provided.

Well yes   =)    I think that you are right here. If I hadn't  been around these forums so that I knew that there is a new system in place I might very well have missed it and spent the first Hawke trying to be friends with everyone. A loading-screen saying that rivalry is a viable optionf for romance and companionship might have been a good idea so people don't miss it. Don't think that I have seen one either.

[SilentK]

Sabriana wrote...

@ SilentK

Yeah! Stupid software limitations. Why can't we just imagine it and make it so

Right! That would have made life so much easier    =)    

If I could just imagine things into excistence a mod so that I could give my LI a hug or a kiss whenever I wanted wold be one of the first things I got.  Gaahh   =)   I'm such a hopeless romantic is downright emarassing at times. But that's one of the things I really miss from DA:O, think it was a mod there too. Here's hoping that the modding-community or those more thech-savy than me will help the romantic saps out.

[Sabriana]

It's also the word "rival" that fostered the misunderstanding, because a rival can be a friend who disagrees, a rival for affection/object/goal/whatever, or a rival in the sense of "I'll climb over your still warm corpse to attain victory over you."

Even the translators didn't know what to make of this. In my native language the word "rival" was translated (wrongly) into "enemy"

Edited to add:

SilentK wrote... good stuff like:

If I could just imagine things into excistence a mod so that I could
give my LI a hug or a kiss whenever I wanted wold be one of the first
things I got.  Gaahh   =)   I'm such a hopeless romantic is downright
emarassing at times. But that's one of the things I really miss from
DA:O, think it was a mod there too. Here's hoping that the
modding-community or those more thech-savy than me will help the
romantic saps out.

Make room on that there bandwagon. I'm coming aboard!

Modifié par Sabriana, 25 avril 2011 - 09:49 .

[SilentK]

Sabriana wrote...

It's also the word "rival" that fostered the misunderstanding, because a rival can be a friend who disagrees, a rival for affection/object/goal/whatever, or a rival in the sense of "I'll climb over your still warm corpse to attain victory over you."

Even the translators didn't know what to make of this. In my native language the word "rival" was translated (wrongly) into "enemy"

Well yes    =)   how could it have been made more clear. Gaahh... my english vocabulary isn't as great as I would like, any other good word for someone that you agree to disagree with? I can see that friendship/rival sounds good because they somewhat opposite eachother and that makes it easy to understan. Hmm....

Should it just be agree/disagree instead? Since you perhaps don't become rivals in the "I'm going to kill you"-way. Friendship/rivalry perhaps sounds a bit more snappy?

[Sabriana]

Good thinking, SilentK
Agree/Disagree is not a bad idea. It doesn't lend itself to misunderstanding as easily as "rival". It also doesn't lend itself as easily to wrong translations.

My game is installed in English, but I did browse through the German version. My compatriots, who installed in German only were told it's "Freund/Feind" (friend/enemy). How where they to know that it was simply a wrong translation.

@ Filament

Yeah, I know. It wouldn't really work unless there were two bars at least. It's most likely a writers/scripters/programmers nightmare. Maybe not including real mean responses in the first place could work. But then, what is "mean" really? It is highly subjective.

I felt so utterly bad at giving a certain NPC an very nasty response that I re-loaded. Perhaps the line wasn't meant to sound as nasty as I felt it, but it made the NPC cry, and made me feel very annoyed at Hawke.

Edited because clarity don't come cheap

Modifié par Sabriana, 25 avril 2011 - 10:09 .

[AkiKishi]

Droma wrote...

have you guys ever played any final fantasy game? btw it's the same whining after every ff game "uh it isn't like the last one mimimi".

bioware gets lot of respect from me to try something new and don't just made origins 2. I'm sick of games like CoD who don't change at all over the years. but well of cause changes allways bare the risk to dissappoint people. but in my opinion it's often the fault of the people himself who don't go open minded in a game and expect the hell out of it. of cause you are dissappointed if you expect ANY game to be perfect. and yes i know da2 has lots of flaws and it isn't a perfect game, but it isn't total garbage as well.

and seriosly what does this game not make a rpg? the combat? play on hard or nightmare, if you just play it on normal then yeah combat is hack'n slay.

With the exceptions of the -2's , they don't even take place in the same world. Also with the exception of the -2's they are not marketed as sequels only as the Final Fantasy franchise.

[SilentK]

Oki.... "feind" really isn't a good one, a few years of high school german tells me that much anyway. Enemy doesn't really have the right tone does it. How sad, I mean rivalmance feels a bit better than enemy-romance. The translators fumbled up that one I think.

[Dormiglione]

ozonemania wrote...
Most of you probably don't realize that when DAO came out, there were just as many gripes about that release as this one. Many new players failed to get hooked and didn't become a 'fan'. Two years later, DAO and expansions/mods have made the game much more than what it was at the beginning. You are viewing DA2 through a lens of long-term play and exposure to DAO. Most players don't, and I think evaluating DA2 on it's own, outside of that scrutiny, the game holds it own very well.

That you are here, 2 years later, still talking about DAO means you are among a very small minority of all people. I am quite sure that BW looked at all the barriers that prevented ppl from becoming a loyal DAO fan, and DA2 certainly addressed many if not all of them.

On the other hand, the reputation of DAO as a very good RPG reflected on good sales. It won nearby every Award in 2009.
How the majority thinks about DA2 is shown in the sales. I dont think that DA2 will win many Awards. What you find here on the forum isnt a minority, its a representative percentage of the general opinion that is out there.
Otherwise, how is it possible that there is so much criticism out there?

[Sabriana]

SilentK wrote...

Oki.... "feind" really isn't a good one, a few years of high school german tells me that much anyway. Enemy doesn't really have the right tone does it. How sad, I mean rivalmance feels a bit better than enemy-romance. The translators fumbled up that one I think.

Fumbled? You are a kind person. I would equate it with dropping the ball so hard, it ended up in south-east Asia

[SilentK]

Sabriana wrote...
Fumbled? You are a kind person. I would equate it with dropping the ball so hard, it ended up in south-east Asia

Well yes      when you put it that way,  lol 

If it said enemy-friend on the scale when I played my first Hawke totally blind without spoilers, I would never have dared to try to get them into the red zone. I would have reloaded all the time trying to keep everyone happy and that wouldn't have been fun at all. Hope that it's better translated into the other languages. 

edit: removed super-quote

Modifié par SilentK, 25 avril 2011 - 10:45 .

[Uzaik]

@ozonemania
As soon as I played DAO (right on release, collector's edition and all) I was in love with that game. Not because of mods (I had none) or expansions, but because of the game been genuinely one of the best I've seen in a long, long time.

I tried to stay as positive for DA2, appreciate its virtues and all... in the end, it's just a lousy game.

Your post reeks of fallacy and generalizations.

[Cutlass Jack]

Uzaik wrote...

Your post reeks of fallacy and generalizations.

Welcome to every post on this forum. Including this one.

[SilentK]

Uzaik wrote...

@ozonemania
As soon as I played DAO (right on release, collector's edition and all) I was in love with that game. Not because of mods (I had none) or expansions, but because of the game been genuinely one of the best I've seen in a long, long time.

I tried to stay as positive for DA2, appreciate its virtues and all... in the end, it's just a lousy game.

Your post reeks of fallacy and generalizations.

Hmmm....   =)

I'm a bit of a DA2-girl so I might as well be up front about it. Not saying that it's the best game ever created just that it was really good for me.

What was it that you liked, which are the virtues and what was it that you didn't like?

Hmm... I've already mentioned the friendship/rivalry-thing quite a bit so don't have to do expand on that. Love it anyways.

Something that bothers me. I'm on my 5:th Hawke now and starting to feel a bit crampted up in Kirkwall. That's one thing I'm having a bit of a problem with. I know that they are probably saving the rest of Thedas and what happens there during these 10 years as a surprise for DA3. Something is going on out there, that's for sure. But I would be very happy for a new area so I'm hoping for some sort of dlc that does that. Don't know how really, sail with Isabela back and forth to a hidden island to sort out something mysterious. Don't know.... just something new to look at   =)

[Uzaik]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Uzaik wrote...

Your post reeks of fallacy and generalizations.

Welcome to every post on this forum. Including this one.

By this one you meant your one, I assume.

[88mphSlayer]

no you're right

as much as i enjoyed DA2 for what it was, it wasn't a sequel

more like a spin-off